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The Election Thread


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Painter Flag Croydon 06 Nov 19 7.22pm

Its only been about a week, since the election was announced. After watching the news in the last week, it is pathetic all these candidates descending on hospitals and schools etc. They have no intention of implementing anything they promise, if they can possibly get away with it.
The total disdain and contempt these people have for the electorate is shameful, they all have their own agendas and will say anything to get elected.
Democracy is hanging by a very thin thread.

 

Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 06 Nov 19 11.55pm

Originally posted by Cucking Funt

I find myself in the unfamiliar position of agreeing with you 100%.

I know. Maybe he’s had a moment of clarity and given up crystal Meth.

 


COYP

Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 07 Nov 19 12.19am

Originally posted by Matov

Never felt so flat with regards to an election before. Especially one with so much at stake with regards to not only Brexit but our collective faith in the democratic process.

Yes, I want the Tories to win but solely because I believe they are the only option that will allow us to exit the EU. How meaningful that exit will be, I am not sure and have no real faith in Johnson to do anything else other than what is good for Johnson but I guess the same could be said for all of them.

Once there is one less star on that s***ty flag, I reckon I might turn my back on all this political malarkey. A waste of energy and time.

It’s close to winter, days are short, the most boring time of year is coming, Christmas, and the most disingenuous politicians are desperate for votes, or are they, and are many people listening? 3 GE’s in 4 years isn’t it and 3 elections this year. The public are like an adolescent after his 5th attempted w@nk.

Just get us out so we can begin the long road to redefining OUR country after losing that autonomy we supposedly shouldn’t have.

 


COYP

W12 07 Nov 19 6.29am

I posted this on the Brexit thread.....

The Political Declaration is not a vague wish list, but an attempt to bind the UK to EU policies.

The Political Declaration accompanying the draft Withdrawal Agreement has been largely overlooked in the furore over the backstop and the resounding defeat at the meaningful vote on 16th January 2019. However, the letter written to the Prime Minister by Jean-Claude Juncker and Donald Tusk on 15th January confirms that:

a) “There is an important link between the Withdrawal Agreement and the Political Declaration, reflecting Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union. As stated in Article 184 of the Withdrawal Agreement and reflected also in Paragraph 138 of the Political Declaration, the European Union and the United Kingdom have committed to use best endeavours, in good faith and in full respect of their respective legal orders, to take necessary steps to negotiate expeditiously the agreements governing their future relationship referred to in the Political Declaration.”

b) “As for the link between the Withdrawal Agreement and the Political Declaration, to which you make reference in your letter, it can be made clear that these two documents, while being of a different nature, are part of the same negotiated package. In order to underline the close relationship between the two texts, they can be published side by side in the Official Journal in a manner reflecting the link between the two as provided for in Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union (TEU).”

It is therefore unwise to dismiss the Political Declaration as a “vague wish-list”. It is far from vague and binds the UK into most areas of EU policy (in many cases under EU law); and should any form of the current draft Withdrawal Agreement pass a second meaningful vote, this Political Declaration will undoubtedly form the basis for the future relationship.

The EU’s letter of 15th January did not include any legal text to make the backstop either optional or time-limited. It is unlikely that concessions will be offered on the backstop for the simple reason that it is required to compel the UK to follow both the timing and substance of the negotiations envisaged in the Political Declaration.

The following is a summary of my more detailed paragraph-by-paragraph analysis of the Political Declaration:

General principles
· The preamble confirms the link to the Withdrawal Agreement. It commits the UK to “an ambitious, broad, deep and flexible partnership across trade and economic cooperation, law enforcement and criminal justice, foreign policy, security and defence and wider areas of cooperation.” Hard red lines are set by the EU with regard to an agreement consistent with “the Union’s principles” and rules, meaning that in most important areas, EU law will be supreme.

Core values and rights
· The UK will have to agree to EU human rights law “as an essential prerequisite” to trade talks.

Data protection
· The EU has placed assessment of UK databases, including the transfer of the personal data of UK citizens, first on the list of areas of cooperation.

Participation in Union programmes
· Participation in a wide range of EU programmes across science, culture, overseas development, defence, foreign policy and space is to be subject to EU law and requires a financial contribution from the UK to be determined by the EU.
· The UK commits to funding a shared PEACE PLUS programme in Northern Ireland and to exploring options to rejoin the European Investment Bank.

Economic partnership
· The economic partnership requires inclusion of the onerous non-regression clauses in Annex 4 of the backstop.
· A free trade area is proposed across all sectors with a customs union (“build and improve on the single customs territory provided for in the Withdrawal Agreement”) – i.e. in the backstop, where the UK must implement the EU’s common external tariff in full. This means the UK will not be able to operate an independent trade policy, despite statements to the contrary.
· The UK should adopt EU rules for goods (with no say) with full regulatory alignment.

Customs and the Irish border

· Paras 26-27 propose facilitative customs arrangements covering technology and administrative cooperation (trusted trader schemes, electronic declarations etc) to avoid a hard border in Ireland.
· The EU therefore admits in the Political Declaration that there is no need for the backstop or a customs union to avoid a hard border in Ireland.

Services and investment
· The economic partnership covers all areas of services, with regulatory alignment.
· There is a risk of a supranational regulatory body through “structured cooperation” in financial regulation.

Public procurement
· Public procurement to go beyond WTO GPA commitments and will favour state-owned EU businesses.

Mobility
· Mobility provisions retain the prospect of preferential treatment for EU nationals, including access to social security benefits and some form of free movement (making it easier to cross borders).

Transport
· The EU seeks comprehensive agreements in the transport sector, particularly aviation, with the imposition of EU policies on standards (including working hours etc), although international agreements and bilateral arrangements
with the EU27 could adequately cover this sector.

Energy
· The UK is expected to rejoin/align with the EU’s carbon pricing scheme. Any clauses linked to climate change will be enforced as part of the overall deal (France has already said it will veto trade deals with countries it deems non-compliant with environmental targets, particularly with those set out in the Paris Agreement).

Fishing
· Fishing is surrendered as a shared resource, with an agreement on quotas, management of stocks and continued EU free access to UK waters to be ratified by 1st July 2020. And should we enter the backstop, we will not be allowed to leave it unless we sign a fisheries agreement with the EU as set out in this linked Political Declaration.

Competition and “level playing field”
· Catch all to force UK alignment with EU rules on “state aid, competition, social and employment standards, environmental standards, climate change, and relevant tax matters, building on the level playing field arrangements provided for in the Withdrawal Agreement” (i.e. replicating the “non-regression” clauses in the backstop). Could be used to trap us in the backstop.

Agriculture
· State aid provisions will allow the EU to influence the level of support available to British farmers, already set at a very disadvantageous level in the Withdrawal Agreement.

Security partnership
· Extensive provisions to lock the UK into the EU’s legal and judicial pillars through the criminal justice system, with operational activities and data exchange under EU rules. Obliges the UK to arrest people (including our own nationals) deemed to have committed “political offences”.

Foreign policy, intelligence and defence
· Ties the UK into the EU’s Common Foreign and Security Policy, commits the UK to common action with EU in international forums, joint military action under EU command structures, participation in and funding of EU defence agencies, operations under EU control.
· Defence manufacturing and procurement to be under EU frameworks. Intelligence sharing under EU frameworks.
· UK to consider continued funding the EU overseas aid budget under EU rules.
· Taken together, the provisions on foreign policy, defence, intelligence and cyber security mean that UK assets and know-how will be used to further the EU’s strategic objectives – a serious risk to national security, defence capability and existing international alliances.
· UK to participate in EU’s civil protection mechanism as “a participating state” – could lead to UK being asked to fund a Eurozone bailout, as in the past.

Institutional framework
· Envisages associate membership of the EU via a formalised “institutional framework”.
· Replicates the Joint Committee provisions of the Withdrawal Agreement with all questions of EU law (of which there will be many in view of the above) to be referred to the ECJ for a binding ruling. No international dispute mechanism at the WTO, for example.

Negotiations and timetable
· Power to start negotiations rests solely with the EU. Once the WA is ratified, the EU can take as long as it likes to start talks and string them out for as long as it wants. As the UK will be locked either into a transition period or the backstop, it can only influence progress by agreeing to the EU’s terms. The UK has already surrendered its leverage in the negotiations.
· Progress to be benchmarked to steps to remove the need for a hard border in Ireland. This establishes a direct link between leaving the backstop and agreeing a deal, thus reinforcing the fact that most of this declaration (all “should”, “must”, “will” not “may” or “might”) is already non-negotiable.
· There is no cut off point if agreement cannot be reached. A six-monthly review of talks does not suggest that progress will be anything.

 

EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 07 Nov 19 7.45am

Originally posted by Willo

People are totally confused about their policy.

We hear about them going to get this wonderful new deal with the EU which they will put to a confirmatory referendum but then vote against their deal !!!

And we hear about their deal is going to include staying in the 'Customs Union' and 'Single Market' but this is in effect remaining in the EU.So the confirmatory referendum will ask "Remain or Remain" !!!!

Furthermore any deal/referendum will be in about SIX months !! Dither and delay.


Edited by Willo (06 Nov 2019 11.45am)

If you keep repeating that enough it might come true - seems to be the very overt Tory strategy at the moment.

Also funny to hear people who no doubt supported Boris’ leadership campaign on the premise that he was going to get us a better deal mock the idea now... don’t get me wrong, it was always a ridiculous claim that this magical better deal existed, but the hypocrisy is pathetic.

 

DanH Flag SW2 07 Nov 19 8.15am

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

If you keep repeating that enough it might come true - seems to be the very overt Tory strategy at the moment.

Also funny to hear people who no doubt supported Boris’ leadership campaign on the premise that he was going to get us a better deal mock the idea now... don’t get me wrong, it was always a ridiculous claim that this magical better deal existed, but the hypocrisy is pathetic.

It would be amusing how readily Tory supporters parrot the obvious untrue soundbites if it wasn’t so scary. And Corbyn supporters are supposed to be the cult.

 

chris123 Flag hove actually 07 Nov 19 8.19am

Originally posted by DanH

It would be amusing how readily Tory supporters parrot the obvious untrue soundbites if it wasn’t so scary. And Corbyn supporters are supposed to be the cult.

The Jeremy Corbyn position on defence is scary in my view.

 

Willo Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 07 Nov 19 8.32am

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

If you keep repeating that enough it might come true - seems to be the very overt Tory strategy at the moment.

Also funny to hear people who no doubt supported Boris’ leadership campaign on the premise that he was going to get us a better deal mock the idea now... don’t get me wrong, it was always a ridiculous claim that this magical better deal existed, but the hypocrisy is pathetic.

I have already stated that the deal is not Valhalla but it was said that the EU would not re-open the Withdrawal Agreement, nor get rid of the 'Backstop' and the rest as they say is history.

Apropos the "Truth" perhaps Labour might wish to hoe this road after their ridiculous claims about the NHS under a Conservative government.

 

Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 07 Nov 19 9.00am

Labour MPs are beginning to leave Corbyn during an election anyway. Should fill the public with confidence.

A completely untrustworthy labour leader may as well step down now. Voters leaving, politicians leaving, but they won’t care. Bunch of scruffs will prefer to complain than do anyway.

 


COYP

Willo Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 07 Nov 19 9.08am

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Labour MPs are beginning to leave Corbyn during an election anyway. Should fill the public with confidence.

A completely untrustworthy labour leader may as well step down now. Voters leaving, politicians leaving, but they won’t care. Bunch of scruffs will prefer to complain than do anyway.

The polls are favourable to the Conservatives at the moment but I take nothing for granted.Volatility could well play it's part.
Labour will promise everything with fantasy economics and large swathes might actually be convinced!

As Andrew Marr said, if someone asked you what was going to happen in this election, cock an eyebrow, say thank you very much and walk away.

 

steeleye20 Flag Croydon 07 Nov 19 9.09am

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Labour MPs are beginning to leave Corbyn during an election anyway. Should fill the public with confidence.

A completely untrustworthy labour leader may as well step down now. Voters leaving, politicians leaving, but they won’t care. Bunch of scruffs will prefer to complain than do anyway.

No, it was Johnson who cleared out 21 Tory MPs.

Corbyn has not sacked Watson or any of the labour members who voted with the government.

You forgot to call him a marxist.

Must be slipping.

 

W12 07 Nov 19 9.24am

Originally posted by steeleye20

No, it was Johnson who cleared out 21 Tory MPs.

Corbyn has not sacked Watson or any of the labour members who voted with the government.

You forgot to call him a marxist.

Must be slipping.

They were not Tory MP's and neither is Johnson. If the Tories were Tories we would have left the EU already but that's not been true for decades.

Oh and Corbyn is a Marxist and Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself.

 

chris123 Flag hove actually 07 Nov 19 9.24am

Originally posted by steeleye20

No, it was Johnson who cleared out 21 Tory MPs.

Corbyn has not sacked Watson or any of the labour members who voted with the government.

You forgot to call him a marxist.

Must be slipping.

Did you hear Ian Austin earlier?

 

Cucking Funt Flag Clapham on the Back 07 Nov 19 9.31am

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

I know. Maybe he’s had a moment of clarity and given up crystal Meth.

Well, a stopped clock and all that...

 


Wife beating may be socially acceptable in Sheffield, but it is a different matter in Cheltenham

steeleye20 Flag Croydon 07 Nov 19 9.31am

Austin is not a labour MP, he is an independent.

We will be getting this stuff from all sides.

Actually, after Starmer, are we sure he didn't say the opposite?

Independents often don't get to keep their seats, he looks like good traffic warden material to me.

 

Teddy Eagle Flag 07 Nov 19 9.31am


Apparently Watson received some correspondence from a concerned citizen in Cornwall - Truro I believe. He said he could only see one way of preventing any more.

 

CrazyBadger Flag Ware 07 Nov 19 9.31am

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

If you keep repeating that enough it might come true - seems to be the very overt Tory strategy at the moment.

Also funny to hear people who no doubt supported Boris’ leadership campaign on the premise that he was going to get us a better deal mock the idea now... don’t get me wrong, it was always a ridiculous claim that this magical better deal existed, but the hypocrisy is pathetic.

and now Labour are pushing the same promises....


 


"It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one"

Deleted11 07 Nov 19 10.29am

Originally posted by Willo

The polls are favourable to the Conservatives at the moment but I take nothing for granted.Volatility could well play it's part.
Labour will promise everything with fantasy economics and large swathes might actually be convinced!

As Andrew Marr said, if someone asked you what was going to happen in this election, cock an eyebrow, say thank you very much and walk away.

And Johnson isn't promising more spending?

 

Willo Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 07 Nov 19 10.39am

Originally posted by Jway89

And Johnson isn't promising more spending?

There is spending and reckless spending leaving a legacy of debt.
Labour will fund their plans with an unprecedented £600 Billion of extra borrowing, which equates to £9,000 for every adult and child.This is a level of borrowing not seen since the 60s.Not forgetting of course the increased taxation which will hit hard working families.

On that note, I need to depart to assist with the Conservative campaign!

 

Deleted11 07 Nov 19 10.50am

Originally posted by Willo

There is spending and reckless spending leaving a legacy of debt.
Labour will fund their plans with an unprecedented £600 Billion of extra borrowing, which equates to £9,000 for every adult and child.This is a level of borrowing not seen since the 60s. Not forgetting of course the increased taxation which will hit hard working families.

On that note, I need to depart to assist with the Conservative campaign!

Excuse my stupidity, but so what. Who does the Government borrow money off? Our debt is 85% of GDP and to be honest I've never known anyone or country sending in bailiffs to collect this debt.

Yes there will be increased taxation, but again, so what. I will be hit by it, but it won't really affect my life and everyone else below the increase will remain as is and probably better off as the minimum wage will go up.

Where I do see an issue is in increasing corporation tax. I would prefer that to be lowered to almost single digits, but to actually collect it from the monopolistic FANGS as well as closing loopholes.

 

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