This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.
The Wan Bissaka thread (LOCKED)
Visit the current forum | Forum Rules
 Rudi Hedman  Caterham 14 Jun 19 9.07am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by JohnB
Completely hypothetical and I'm not claiming to have a clue what prices other teams would want for their players, these are just going off rumoured asking prices. I would be more than happy if Palace sold AWB for £55m. Something like that would give us a more well rounded team with some creativity and goals plus £29m profit. I completely agree that selling a right back for large money gives us more options but we won’t be increasing the squad by 3-4 high wage earners. His sale or whatever we’re likel to keep aside for the team after sorting out some of our creditors, will be divided by 3, or at best 2, for any player costs we’re going to take on that are again transfer fee+wages/years of contract.
COYP |
|
| Rudi Hedman Caterham 14 Jun 19 9.14am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by ChrisGC
The answer is to invest in the youth setup and scouting system employing the Cortese model from Southampton. We have the most populated catchment area in Europe, yet AWB is the first player in 7 + years to make it and our youth team doesn't even compete in the top tier. Where Southampton went wrong with the model was when Cortese left they sold all their scouted/youth players. Mane, VVD, Llana, Oxlade Chamberpot, Wanayma, Lovren, all just competed in squads for the biggest trophies. People are saying "we can buy 4 new players with that money". No we can't! Bentekkers and Sakho cost 30m ffs and that was before the market went crazy. Then there's the wages. 4 new players = £400k a week. Unaffordable, unsustainable. Of course, I agree. But that solution delivers in the future. We also need solutions now. I agree we won’t be buying 4 top players. More likely probably 2 and maybe a potential player or 2 or 3.
COYP |
|
| Master Coin 14 Jun 19 9.41am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by ChrisGC
The answer is to invest in the youth setup and scouting system employing the Cortese model from Southampton. We have the most populated catchment area in Europe, yet AWB is the first player in 7 + years to make it and our youth team doesn't even compete in the top tier. Where Southampton went wrong with the model was when Cortese left they sold all their scouted/youth players. Mane, VVD, Llana, Oxlade Chamberpot, Wanayma, Lovren, all just competed in squads for the biggest trophies. People are saying "we can buy 4 new players with that money". No we can't! Bentekkers and Sakho cost 30m ffs and that was before the market went crazy. Then there's the wages. 4 new players = £400k a week. Unaffordable, unsustainable. But the whole Southampton model you're quoting relied on finding underpriced players... They lost Alderweireld and replaced him with VVD for like £12m which was way below market rates. Mane etc also cost them peanuts. You can't argue for the Southampton model and then also argue that you can't find cheap hidden gems. The issue is that we've not adopted a policy of buy low sell high for our whole PL stay - we've instead bought 'proven' (or allegedly proven in Benteke's case!) players in their prime and then sucked up their best years such that there is no resale market for them.
The flawed assumptions here are:- 1) Thinking Southampton had much to do with these players leaving. VVD, Lallana, Lovren and Wanyama all forced their way out. As did the Ox to a lesser extent. The best you can do is have their contracts sewn up so that when they do leave you can get big money for them and then hope that when you roll the dice and reinvest, the scouting department continues to get more 'hits' than 'misses'. Southampton's thrived despite the sales for a good few years because they swapped out the likes of Alderweireld for VVD and Lallana for Mane. The recent struggles are due to the new crop of reinvestments not panning out coupled with some questionable managerial choices. Its swings and roundabouts - without owners who can pump in vast cash (a la Wolves and Everton) you either buy high on proven commodities and then sell low (which is what we've done to date) or you buy low and sell high. Neither is 100% sustainable. The former runs out of cash to keep going at that pace (ie, what's happened to us). The latter suffers from what happened to Southampton in getting too many misses in one crop. 2) The second flaw is in assuming that you can keep them all due to monetary and wage bill constraints. There is no way Southampton's infrastructure could support paying all the above listed players on what they are now all currently earning. Hrolf in particular and a couple others on here think that we can, in some way, do what Southampton couldn't and blindly keep all these theoretically pissed off players that want to move onto bigger things, while increasing the wage bill to Man City levels and with a comparatively tinpot ground and investors. FWIW, I don't actually think AWB or Wilf are at the stage of forcing their way out (yet). Nonetheless, we will be obliged to sell them eventually and in AWBs case I reckon sell high whilst his fee is at its absolute zenith.
|
|
| CrazyBadger Ware 14 Jun 19 9.53am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Master Coin
But the whole Southampton model you're quoting relied on finding underpriced players... They lost Alderweireld and replaced him with VVD for like £12m which was way below market rates. Mane etc also cost them peanuts. You can't argue for the Southampton model and then also argue that you can't find cheap hidden gems. The issue is that we've not adopted a policy of buy low sell high for our whole PL stay - we've instead bought 'proven' (or allegedly proven in Benteke's case!) players in their prime and then sucked up their best years such that there is no resale market for them.
The flawed assumptions here are:- 1) Thinking Southampton had much to do with these players leaving. VVD, Lallana, Lovren and Wanyama all forced their way out. As did the Ox to a lesser extent. The best you can do is have their contracts sewn up so that when they do leave you can get big money for them and then hope that when you roll the dice and reinvest, the scouting department continues to get more 'hits' than 'misses'. Southampton's thrived despite the sales for a good few years because they swapped out the likes of Alderweireld for VVD and Lallana for Mane. The recent struggles are due to the new crop of reinvestments not panning out coupled with some questionable managerial choices. Its swings and roundabouts - without owners who can pump in vast cash (a la Wolves and Everton) you either buy high on proven commodities and then sell low (which is what we've done to date) or you buy low and sell high. Neither is 100% sustainable. The former runs out of cash to keep going at that pace (ie, what's happened to us). The latter suffers from what happened to Southampton in getting too many misses in one crop. 2) The second flaw is in assuming that you can keep them all due to monetary and wage bill constraints. There is no way Southampton's infrastructure could support paying all the above listed players on what they are now all currently earning. Hrolf in particular and a couple others on here think that we can, in some way, do what Southampton couldn't and blindly keep all these theoretically pissed off players that want to move onto bigger things, while increasing the wage bill to Man City levels and with a comparatively tinpot ground and investors. FWIW, I don't actually think AWB or Wilf are at the stage of forcing their way out (yet). Nonetheless, we will be obliged to sell them eventually and in AWBs case I reckon sell high whilst his fee is at its absolute zenith. Seconded!
"It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one" |
|
| Rudi Hedman Caterham 14 Jun 19 10.23am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by CrazyBadger
Seconded! It’s a Master post. Some will never ever agree though.
COYP |
|
| Aray South London 14 Jun 19 10.56am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
It’s a Master post. Some will never ever agree though. Also agree a top-notch post. But there is one point I question - selling AWB at his zenith. When is that then? Selling now to Manure after one complete season? I personally think he'll improve this year - if he does then we could sell him to Barcelona for far more what the mancs are offering.
|
|
| Master Coin 14 Jun 19 11.04am |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Aray
Also agree a top-notch post. But there is one point I question - selling AWB at his zenith. When is that then? Selling now to Manure after one complete season? I personally think he'll improve this year - if he does then we could sell him to Barcelona for far more what the mancs are offering. Yeah agreed - that was probably hasty on my part. He could kick on even further and become even more valuable. I think that is higher risk though than him having a 'down' year and being worth less in 12 months time. I think my point is that even the best RB in the world isn't going to fetch more than, say, £70m because of the nature of the position. Big money will be spend on attacking midfielders and centre forwards (in general). So if we can get £60m that's a good deal because I see it as more likely we're offered £40m next year than £70m (albeit I'd say continuing to be offered ~£55m again is most likely). The TV deal isn't increasing so prices won't continue to balloon and he'll have one year less on his current deal.
|
|
| ChrisGC Wantage 14 Jun 19 12.01pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by JohnB
I think our highest scoring striker in U23 is James Daly who spent much of last year on loan at Kingstonian's which tells you the kind of level they're at at the moment. It's all opinions at the end of the day but I'd rather have Sturridge play half the games next year, due to injury, as a natural finisher than Sorloth all season. Yeah, the Sorloth comment was misjudged, apologies.
|
|
| Spiderman Horsham 14 Jun 19 12.06pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by salop-eagle
Has anybody read anywhere a direct quote from AWB saying he wishes to go to United? Or is it all 'reported' based on some spurious guesswork by the Sun? The only interview I've seen he says he will be here next year! I was about to ask the same question. I haven't seen anywhere the AWB has said he wants to leave.
|
|
Mwncisee  Middlesbrough 14 Jun 19 12.09pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Master Coin
Yeah agreed - that was probably hasty on my part. He could kick on even further and become even more valuable. I think that is higher risk though than him having a 'down' year and being worth less in 12 months time. I think my point is that even the best RB in the world isn't going to fetch more than, say, £70m because of the nature of the position. Big money will be spend on attacking midfielders and centre forwards (in general). So if we can get £60m that's a good deal because I see it as more likely we're offered £40m next year than £70m (albeit I'd say continuing to be offered ~£55m again is most likely). The TV deal isn't increasing so prices won't continue to balloon and he'll have one year less on his current deal. Agree with a lot of what you have said today. Natural `creep` in prices though will mean even if all other things are equal prices for players will creep up but just at a lower rate if other factors do not alter it.
|
|
 Hrolf The Ganger 14 Jun 19 12.31pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Master Coin
But the whole Southampton model you're quoting relied on finding underpriced players... They lost Alderweireld and replaced him with VVD for like £12m which was way below market rates. Mane etc also cost them peanuts. You can't argue for the Southampton model and then also argue that you can't find cheap hidden gems. The issue is that we've not adopted a policy of buy low sell high for our whole PL stay - we've instead bought 'proven' (or allegedly proven in Benteke's case!) players in their prime and then sucked up their best years such that there is no resale market for them.
The flawed assumptions here are:- 1) Thinking Southampton had much to do with these players leaving. VVD, Lallana, Lovren and Wanyama all forced their way out. As did the Ox to a lesser extent. The best you can do is have their contracts sewn up so that when they do leave you can get big money for them and then hope that when you roll the dice and reinvest, the scouting department continues to get more 'hits' than 'misses'. Southampton's thrived despite the sales for a good few years because they swapped out the likes of Alderweireld for VVD and Lallana for Mane. The recent struggles are due to the new crop of reinvestments not panning out coupled with some questionable managerial choices. Its swings and roundabouts - without owners who can pump in vast cash (a la Wolves and Everton) you either buy high on proven commodities and then sell low (which is what we've done to date) or you buy low and sell high. Neither is 100% sustainable. The former runs out of cash to keep going at that pace (ie, what's happened to us). The latter suffers from what happened to Southampton in getting too many misses in one crop. 2) The second flaw is in assuming that you can keep them all due to monetary and wage bill constraints. There is no way Southampton's infrastructure could support paying all the above listed players on what they are now all currently earning. Hrolf in particular and a couple others on here think that we can, in some way, do what Southampton couldn't and blindly keep all these theoretically pissed off players that want to move onto bigger things, while increasing the wage bill to Man City levels and with a comparatively tinpot ground and investors. What pissed off players? Southampton have regularly sold all their best players and that has taken them from high mid-table to barely avoiding relegation for the last two seasons. You like that model? Selling your best talent will eventually see any team in the Championship where the potential loss of income will make our transfer profits look like peanuts.
|
|
| Mwncisee Middlesbrough 14 Jun 19 12.41pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
What pissed off players? Southampton have regularly sold all their best players and that has taken them from high mid-table to barely avoiding relegation for the last two seasons. You like that model? Selling your best talent will eventually see any team in the Championship where the potential loss of income will make our transfer profits look like peanuts. Once again you are misquoting. You even highlight it yourself! He very clearly states `theoretically pissed off` and then you lambaste him for believing everything the media puts out! No-one has said we should sell all our talent, and many have been very clear in stating that AWB is a player and in a position that we feel if he was sold would not hamstring our side completely. In fact, many have stated they see losing AWB very different to losing Wilf, the later being much harder boots to fill.
|
|
| Bangell Oxford 14 Jun 19 1.08pm |
|
|---|---|
|
I really don't think £50 million is enough.
|
|
Tipp_Eagle  Tipperary 14 Jun 19 1.13pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by dollardays
It's getting hot in here! so take off all your clothes , Boom
oh yeah ,fcuk off brighton. |
|
| Tipp_Eagle Tipperary 14 Jun 19 1.21pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Spiderman
I was about to ask the same question. I haven't seen anywhere the AWB has said he wants to leave. You know what they say about the transfer windows and the press . Believe half of what you see and none of what you read , and even then if i saw AWB in a manure shirt id have my doubts .
oh yeah ,fcuk off brighton. |
|
| CrazyBadger Ware 14 Jun 19 1.35pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by salop-eagle
Has anybody read anywhere a direct quote from AWB saying he wishes to go to United? Or is it all 'reported' based on some spurious guesswork by the Sun? The only interview I've seen he says he will be here next year! I'm Not really sure That's the point of this thread anymore! Hopefully this will happen and it not all go into the alleged shortfalls in the accounts Edited by CrazyBadger (14 Jun 2019 1.36pm)
"It was a Team effort, I guess it took all players working together to lose this one" |
|
| Master Coin 14 Jun 19 1.37pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
What pissed off players? Southampton have regularly sold all their best players and that has taken them from high mid-table to barely avoiding relegation for the last two seasons. You like that model? Selling your best talent will eventually see any team in the Championship where the potential loss of income will make our transfer profits look like peanuts. I said "theoretically pissed off" quite intentionally. Do you even read?! You also have no argument against the rest of my post so have a) selectively commented and b) misquoted at that. Not only that I was actually arguing against the Southampton model and said both their model (buy cheap sell high) and ours (buy high sell low) are not sustainable. Ours is probably more sustainable if you're able to rake in some cash periodically (eg, selling AWB). Frankly I think every team in the league aside from the top 6 plus Everton and Wolves (the latest nouveau cash rich sides) are essentially 'renting' a spot in the PL. No team beyond those ~8 has a long term spot in the league. And that's actually supported by the fact that (I think) Everton and the top 6 (excluding City) are the only PL ever-presents.
|
|
| Omph Liverpool 14 Jun 19 2.33pm |
|
|---|---|
|
Broadly agreed - there really isn’t any model for not returning to the Championship. 7-9 years seems the maximum likely stay. There isn’t really any sign of a settled PL forming - almost exactly half of the top 4 tiers have now played in the PL. The Soton comparison doesn’t stand up given the number of players they’ve lost in recent seasons. A much better comparison is Watford selling Richarlison - one sale that helped them balance the books and buy in some talent. Originally posted by Master Coin
I said "theoretically pissed off" quite intentionally. Do you even read?! You also have no argument against the rest of my post so have a) selectively commented and b) misquoted at that. Not only that I was actually arguing against the Southampton model and said both their model (buy cheap sell high) and ours (buy high sell low) are not sustainable. Ours is probably more sustainable if you're able to rake in some cash periodically (eg, selling AWB). Frankly I think every team in the league aside from the top 6 plus Everton and Wolves (the latest nouveau cash rich sides) are essentially 'renting' a spot in the PL. No team beyond those ~8 has a long term spot in the league. And that's actually supported by the fact that (I think) Everton and the top 6 (excluding City) are the only PL ever-presents.
|
|
All images and text on this site are copyright © 1999-2025 The Holmesdale Online, unless otherwise stated.
Web Design by Guntrisoft Ltd.