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PatrickA Flag London 15 Feb 21 9.50pm Send a Private Message to PatrickA Add PatrickA as a friend

Hodgson did mention about the need for new signings.
However, that was some time ago.
This season he has said the squad has been the strongest in his time at the club.
With this in mind he can't seek to use the squad as a valid reason for the inconsistent performances this season and inability to either defend or attack properly.
The players are of course partially responsible but Hodgson is responsible for selection, motivation and tactics.

 

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spartakev2 Flag Anerley 15 Feb 21 10.05pm Send a Private Message to spartakev2 Add spartakev2 as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

My two penneth:

Performances aside, age alone means Roy will go either this summer, or at the very latest, next.

Then what? More anti-football? Or do we change direction? Can it even be done?

Asking if Southampton actually get better end results than us is a fair question, as is the response that, if the results are similar anyway, isn't it better to at least enjoy watching your team play?

I would be the first to say 'Yes', even with a 0-9 chucked in every season. In fact, don’t forget that Saints recently managed four top ten finishes, making Europe once. They play better stuff, and get better results than us for what seems a similar budget. I'd swap in a heartbeat.

But we cannot, and should not, aim to play like Southampton for two reasons, both I think get overlooked, particularly when calling for Roy to go:

1. Middling sized clubs can't survive playing decent football. Sadly, Southampton are the exception that proves the rule.

There are just so many clubs our size who played better football than us on their way out of the league, and so, so few to play better stuff and stay up. In fact, there is only one: Southampton.

Norwich, Bournemouth, Wigan, Fulham, Hull, QPR, Swansea, and post-Pulis Stoke etc all went down trying to play, whilst us, Burnley, Brighton (pre-Potter) and Newcastle all stayed up.

Forget about how long we've been in the league now. What matters is how our budget compares to the rest, and that hasn't changed. If you were a hedge fund manager, or a bookie, you'd give a middling sized club a better chance of staying up, by far, if they played anti-football. Sad, but mathematically evident.

2. We can't play a pressing game like Southampton, or a possession game like Brighton without the kind of major overhaul that just isn't possible.

We came up and stayed up playing counter-attacking football. Each new signing has been to replace a part of that particular machine. Team style is dictated by your players, especially your best ones. Just as Villas-Boas failed spectacularly when trying to get Chelsea to play a high line that didn’t suit key players like John Terry and Petr Cech, I see no evidence whatsoever that Zaha or Eze are suited to a pressing game, or to keeping possession for its own sake. Our DNA is the polar opposite.

Southampton came up and stayed up playing positive football. Adkins built them that way in the Championship, and as good as Pochettino, Koeman and Hasenhüttl may or may not be, each inherited a footballing side, with signings made to suit that style. The new man at Palace won’t have that.

We can’t play like Southampton, now, or at any time in the foreseeable future. We will have to get used to highly conservative football as played by Pulis, Allardyce and Hodgson for a good while yet.

1.name a premiership club our size who plays worse football than we do. Every team we play against from the top to the bottom teams, all look more comfortable on the ball and play better football.


2. But we dont play counter attacking football anymore. We try playing out from the back knocking it about a bit, giving opponents defenders time to get back. Even zaha holds the ball up most of the time. Rarely do we attack with pace anymore .. so if the only way we can play is counter attack, we have serious problems

 

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TheBigToePunt Flag 15 Feb 21 11.29pm Send a Private Message to TheBigToePunt Add TheBigToePunt as a friend

Originally posted by spartakev2

1.name a premiership club our size who plays worse football than we do. Every team we play against from the top to the bottom teams, all look more comfortable on the ball and play better football.


2. But we dont play counter attacking football anymore. We try playing out from the back knocking it about a bit, giving opponents defenders time to get back. Even zaha holds the ball up most of the time. Rarely do we attack with pace anymore .. so if the only way we can play is counter attack, we have serious problems

Burnley, Newcastle and West Brom play anti football as much as we do. We are in awful form recently whereas they've picked up in form, but the set up and intention is fundamentally the same. Sheffield United are also pretty poor to watch.

I agree that we aren't as clearly defined tactically this season as in previous seasons under Hodgson, and I think that part of the problem (along with player quality and injuries) might be a desire to do a bit more with the ball - either that, or opponents are dropping off us a bit and letting us have the ball more. Our possession stats seem to be up on previous years, but that's made us worse not better. Which leads me back to the previous point - I'm not convinced this lot can play any other way than super negative and get enough points to stay up.

Believe me, I'd love to be proved wrong.

 

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TheBigToePunt Flag 15 Feb 21 11.33pm Send a Private Message to TheBigToePunt Add TheBigToePunt as a friend

Originally posted by PatrickA

Hodgson did mention about the need for new signings.
However, that was some time ago.
This season he has said the squad has been the strongest in his time at the club.
With this in mind he can't seek to use the squad as a valid reason for the inconsistent performances this season and inability to either defend or attack properly.
The players are of course partially responsible but Hodgson is responsible for selection, motivation and tactics.

But surely it doesn't matter if this is Roy's strongest ever Palace squad, what matters is how strong the squad is in comparison to everyone else's? It is a competition after all.

Plus, it doesn't matter how good you think your squad is anyway if half of them are injured.

 

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PatrickA Flag London 16 Feb 21 6.44am Send a Private Message to PatrickA Add PatrickA as a friend

Are West Ham that much of a stronger squad and look how they are going at present.
One half fit striker in Antonio who is very good but can’t stay fit.
They sold their version of Benteke in Haller.
A reject from Watford in Dawson at centre back.
Two cheap but good buys in the right back and Sousek, both of whom would have been well within our budget.
They bought 2 of the better players from the championship in Bowen and Behnrama, but Behnrama has made no real impact yet and we bought Eze who looks at least as good as them.
And we supposedly beat them to Eze as they didn’t have the funds available and had to raise funds by selling their young winger to WBA which their fans weren’t best pleased by.
We don’t have a Rice, but they don’t have a Zaha.
Expensive buys like Yarmolenko, Lanzini and Fornals don’t feature that much in the same way that we don’t use Benteke or Batshuayi .
But Moyes has bought in a strong team ethic and a way of playing that suits the players.
And the stadium is irrelevant to performance, in particular this season.
It sometimes feels fans are looking for excuses to cover Hodgson’s shortcomings.
I doubt West Ham fans would be so generous to Moyes if West Ham turned disorganised performances that we are seeing from Palace.

 

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Tickled pink Flag Cornwall 16 Feb 21 7.16am Send a Private Message to Tickled pink Add Tickled pink as a friend

Originally posted by PatrickA

Hodgson did mention about the need for new signings.
However, that was some time ago
.
This season he has said the squad has been the strongest in his time at the club.
With this in mind he can't seek to use the squad as a valid reason for the inconsistent performances this season and inability to either defend or attack properly.
The players are of course partially responsible but Hodgson is responsible for selection, motivation and tactics.

Doesn't really make much sense, all we need to do is watch them trying to make and complete a pass which can be achieved no matter what our opposition is doing, the reason we fail so much is also due to the movement when receiving a pass and more importantly making space so to be seen to pass to ..which is where we totally and completely fail when being closed down.

Guaita quite often rolls the ball out for us to start a move forward but then practically every single time we stop before we even get near the half way line why are we so methodical with the ball, all I can see is our awful ability to make space for ourselves with total horrendous anticipation which results in our passing .....
We can all clear as rain see the difference when Eze has the ball along with Zaha, the running is crisp and the passing zips and movement/making space, too many of our players have lost the ability to do the basics and this is the reason more and more of our moves break down before they even start, our squad is pathetically weak.

 

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Casual Flag Orpington 16 Feb 21 7.16am Send a Private Message to Casual Add Casual as a friend

Originally posted by PatrickA

Are West Ham that much of a stronger squad and look how they are going at present.
One half fit striker in Antonio who is very good but can’t stay fit.
They sold their version of Benteke in Haller.
A reject from Watford in Dawson at centre back.
Two cheap but good buys in the right back and Sousek, both of whom would have been well within our budget.
They bought 2 of the better players from the championship in Bowen and Behnrama, but Behnrama has made no real impact yet and we bought Eze who looks at least as good as them.
And we supposedly beat them to Eze as they didn’t have the funds available and had to raise funds by selling their young winger to WBA which their fans weren’t best pleased by.
We don’t have a Rice, but they don’t have a Zaha.
Expensive buys like Yarmolenko, Lanzini and Fornals don’t feature that much in the same way that we don’t use Benteke or Batshuayi .
But Moyes has bought in a strong team ethic and a way of playing that suits the players.
And the stadium is irrelevant to performance, in particular this season.
It sometimes feels fans are looking for excuses to cover Hodgson’s shortcomings.
I doubt West Ham fans would be so generous to Moyes if West Ham turned disorganised performances that we are seeing from Palace.

Looking at in another way.
They have a solid keeper and back 4 , coufal must be one of the buys of the season, cost peanuts and has shown great quality.
In center midfield they have Rice and souchek, I don’t think that any of our preferred midfield 2/3 would even make their bench. They have game changers that don’t even start lanzizi/fornals/yarmalenko.
Also they have a Center forward that scares the life out of defences on his own.
But their average players like Cresswell and Bowen come off the pitch every game having given absolutely everything.
How many of our current eleven would start for them?
But the biggest thing for me is the big money signings Haller and Anderson (the equivalent to benteke and Sakho), they realised they weren’t for them and got them off the wage bill sharpish. Where as we extend their contracts , to ‘protect the asset’ load of bo**ocks.

 

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Tickled pink Flag Cornwall 16 Feb 21 7.22am Send a Private Message to Tickled pink Add Tickled pink as a friend

Originally posted by Casual

Looking at in another way.
They have a solid keeper and back 4 , coufal must be one of the buys of the season, cost peanuts and has shown great quality.
In center midfield they have Rice and souchek, I don’t think that any of our preferred midfield 2/3 would even make their bench. They have game changers that don’t even start lanzizi/fornals/yarmalenko.
Also they have a Center forward that scares the life out of defences on his own.
But their average players like Cresswell and Bowen come off the pitch every game having given absolutely everything.
How many of our current eleven would start for them?
But the biggest thing for me is the big money signings Haller and Anderson (the equivalent to benteke and Sakho), they realised they weren’t for them and got them off the wage bill sharpish. Where as we extend their contracts , to ‘protect the asset’ load of bo**ocks.

Yes, quite right.

 

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PatrickA Flag London 16 Feb 21 7.28am Send a Private Message to PatrickA Add PatrickA as a friend

I agree with much of what you say and also about some of the decisions taken.
But the central point remains that Hodgson is responsible for tactics and team selection.
He has been unable to create a strong team ethic and establish a way of playing which suits our players.
Some of our performances this season have been shambolic and it’s a miracle we have amassed 29 points.
Without Zaha, he hasn’t a clue how to set up to win.
Moyes has found a way of winning without Antonio even in the absence of any other striker.
Moyes leaves captain Noble out even though he’s still decent.
Hodgson persists with captain Luka even even when he consistently underperforms .
And I don’t think Moyes is exceptional by the way.

 

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Tickled pink Flag Cornwall 16 Feb 21 7.39am Send a Private Message to Tickled pink Add Tickled pink as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

Burnley, Newcastle and West Brom play anti football as much as we do. We are in awful form recently whereas they've picked up in form, but the set up and intention is fundamentally the same. Sheffield United are also pretty poor to watch.

I agree that we aren't as clearly defined tactically this season as in previous seasons under Hodgson, and I think that part of the problem (along with player quality and injuries) might be a desire to do a bit more with the ball - either that, or opponents are dropping off us a bit and letting us have the ball more. Our possession stats seem to be up on previous years, but that's made us worse not better. Which leads me back to the previous point - I'm not convinced this lot can play any other way than super negative and get enough points to stay up.

Believe me, I'd love to be proved wrong.


Everything you say makes perfect sense to me.

Every pundit last season couldn't get enough of their overlapping fullbacks lol
We try to play out from the back and then we get stuck as soon as the enemy stands in front of us, you can see and taste the panic and then the passing becomes more and more misplaced and frantic until....


Edited by Tickled pink (16 Feb 2021 7.52am)

 

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PatrickA Flag London 16 Feb 21 7.50am Send a Private Message to PatrickA Add PatrickA as a friend

So are the players disobeying Hodgson with this slow passing out from the back sideways and backwards?
One assumes they are following his tactics.
When Benteke plays and receives only one cross in the air during a match are they disobeying tactics?
When Ayew is selected right of a midfield 4 and spends his whole match anywhere other than on the right is he disobeying tactics?
Put players in their correct positions and play to their strengths.
If they don’t perform, make changes.
It’s not that complicated.

 

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Tickled pink Flag Cornwall 16 Feb 21 8.04am Send a Private Message to Tickled pink Add Tickled pink as a friend

Originally posted by PatrickA

So are the players disobeying Hodgson with this slow passing out from the back sideways and backwards?
One assumes they are following his tactics.
When Benteke plays and receives only one cross in the air during a match are they disobeying tactics?
When Ayew is selected right of a midfield 4 and spends his whole match anywhere other than on the right is he disobeying tactics?
Put players in their correct positions and play to their strengths.
If they don’t perform, make changes.
It’s not that complicated.

Ayew is being wasted very badly this season, I feel he is moving himself to where ever he can find the ball because other players simply cannot find him so don't necessarily blame any individual for not being where you'd expect ..frustration is going to do their heads in, look at Zaha half the time he blows a fuse isn't because of just the treatment his receives but all the awful moves and passes that build up to it.

Benteke does need good balls into him yes, but he's also lost the spring in his legs and the movement you need to confuse a defender somewhat, the balls into him are lost through good defenders stopping us crossing the ball, don't forget there is an organised premier league outfit trying to prevent everything you've mentioned from happening and at the moment our confidence is all over the place along with our poor quality as a whole ..we have some good quality but some of them have lost it and these few are losing our ability on the pitch.

That's just my take on it of course.

Edited by Tickled pink (16 Feb 2021 8.07am)

 

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