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The Big Club Bias and Loftus-Cheek

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Casual Flag Orpington 04 Nov 17 6.56am Send a Private Message to Casual Add Casual as a friend

Originally posted by thai-eagle

Of course there is a bias - big one as well. BTW, there were 5 Tottenham-players in the team that lost to Iceland as well. You play 2-3 games for any top 6 club and Southgate pick you. Henderson as captain and Wilshire knockin' on England door again...come Russia 2018 and see what they are worth.

I think the reason why most of the players come from the top 6 is because they have the best players. You’re right that if someone has a handful of games for a top club, they are put in a squad. How many of ours/West Brom’s/ Burnley etc would get a run of games at city/Chelsea/Tottenham/united etc.
I like Zaha , think he’s improved massively , if he was still available I reckon he’d be a regular in the England squad, but I don’t think he’d be in any starting elevens.
RLC is a good player and will get better, but I’d be surprised if he plays much football in the 2 games. Just hope he doesn’t get injured.

 

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thai-eagle Flag chiang mai 04 Nov 17 7.40am Send a Private Message to thai-eagle Add thai-eagle as a friend

Whoever Southgate brings to Russia next summer, will mostly have taken part in last WC. Luckily without Rooney, but still - those players have brought very little England success. No pride, no fight - just overrated, highly paid "professinals"....

 

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Eustace H. Plimsoll Flag Aldershot 04 Nov 17 7.40am Send a Private Message to Eustace H. Plimsoll Add Eustace H. Plimsoll as a friend

Originally posted by Painter


Peter Taylor was playing for England, whilst at Palace in the old Third division. We were hardly a big club.
It's not bias, it's how good they are at the time.

Well quite. And it seems all too convenient to overlook that a certain J.F.Morris of Barnes Club was called-up by England in 1872. 'Big club'?? I spy a pattern (albeit like one of those funny web ones made by spiders given hallucinogenic drugs.)

 


As a woman, I can step aside, or step up my game...

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Johnny Byrne Flag Pinner 04 Nov 17 7.59am Send a Private Message to Johnny Byrne Add Johnny Byrne as a friend

RLC good player - gets experience now with England squad and will help CPFC this season.

Reason why Zaha not an England player is Henderson. He and Wilf had a bust up at U21 level under .... Southgate as manager. I rest my case!

 

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Dan1994 Flag Wallington 04 Nov 17 10.37am Send a Private Message to Dan1994 Add Dan1994 as a friend

Originally posted by Painter


Peter Taylor was playing for England, whilst at Palace in the old Third division. We were hardly a big club.
It's not bias, it's how good they are at the time.

So we have to go back to the 70s to find someone that bucks the trend. And by bucking the trend we mean 4 caps, all of which, from what I can gather, were pointless games.

I guarantee you, by the time the World Cup squad comes around, players who should be in the squad on performances won't be there, and we'll still have the some of the run-of-the-mill, bang average players who are on the fringes of the top 6 teams. Oh and Ross Barkley, who will be bigged up as England's next big thing until he's 27 a la Theo Walcott.

Don't get me wrong, it's best if the majority of them are in the top 6 teams, because that means we'll have good players. It's the top 6 fringe players, with limited game time, that get picked that annoys me. When Wilshere is picked for Euro 2016 over Danny Drinkwater and Daniel Sturridge is picked for Euro 2016 over Jermain Defoe, you know something ain't right.

Edited by Dan1994 (04 Nov 2017 10.38am)

 


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taylors lovechild Flag 04 Nov 17 10.42am Send a Private Message to taylors lovechild Add taylors lovechild as a friend

I was thinking along the lines of "yes, there's definitely a big game bias" but then you go through the squads of the smaller PL clubs and you realise that often their best players are either foreign or they are doing ok because they work well as a team. There are some good defenders around (Mee at Burnley, Mawson at Swansea, etc) but you look at the midfield and forward positions and there is a paucity of talent. Gray at Leicester and Redmond at Southampton I would personally swap for Lingard, but they've hardly proven themselves. Up top there's even less choice with Vardy already picked; Would you have WWF Troy 'no goals' Deeney in the squad?

So although I think that players like Cahill, Henderson and Young are not international quality, I think it's more just a case of we don't have a great deal of high-quality English players around at the moment. Hopefully by the next World Cup (in 2022) some of those tournament-winning youngsters will have grown up and we might win a trophy.

On the Palace front I think England will definitely be regretting not having tried to get Zaha on board and as for the rest I think Townsend is unlucky not to be in the squad, but if we start getting results he may be able to fight his way back in. No one else has earned a call up this season

 

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EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 04 Nov 17 11.48am Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Dan1994

So we have to go back to the 70s to find someone that bucks the trend. And by bucking the trend we mean 4 caps, all of which, from what I can gather, were pointless games.

I guarantee you, by the time the World Cup squad comes around, players who should be in the squad on performances won't be there, and we'll still have the some of the run-of-the-mill, bang average players who are on the fringes of the top 6 teams. Oh and Ross Barkley, who will be bigged up as England's next big thing until he's 27 a la Theo Walcott.

Don't get me wrong, it's best if the majority of them are in the top 6 teams, because that means we'll have good players. It's the top 6 fringe players, with limited game time, that get picked that annoys me. When Wilshere is picked for Euro 2016 over Danny Drinkwater and Daniel Sturridge is picked for Euro 2016 over Jermain Defoe, you know something ain't right.

Edited by Dan1994 (04 Nov 2017 10.38am)

Other than Livermore, Vardy, Maguire, Defoe, Keane etc. who have all been picked in the last few months.

If you genuinely believe a 27 year old Andros Townsend, who has played nearly every minute for the worst team in the division and has 0 goals, 0 assists (unless you count winning a penalty), is more deserving of a place than a 24 year old Lingard, who has more club goals in the last two weeks than Townsend has in 2017, then I would suggest you are far more guilty of bias than the England selectors.

 

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Dan1994 Flag Wallington 04 Nov 17 12.22pm Send a Private Message to Dan1994 Add Dan1994 as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

Other than Livermore, Vardy, Maguire, Defoe, Keane etc. who have all been picked in the last few months.

If you genuinely believe a 27 year old Andros Townsend, who has played nearly every minute for the worst team in the division and has 0 goals, 0 assists (unless you count winning a penalty), is more deserving of a place than a 24 year old Lingard, who has more club goals in the last two weeks than Townsend has in 2017, then I would suggest you are far more guilty of bias than the England selectors.

Defoe didn't even make it into the Euros squad, so I don't know how you can count him in that.

Vardy was incredibly impressive when he was chosen. How he'd not have been chose would've been criminal. Do you really have to be in that kind of form to be picked over someone like Sturridge?

Livermore was picked for a friendly and played against Lithuania - a game which is essentially treated as a friendly by England.

Maguire and Keane have been exceptions, but they're only in the squad due to the lack of English defenders in the top 6 teams. What English defenders, who were available, were missing due to Keane or Maguire's inclusion?

Okay fine, let's compare the two:
Townsend has started every game this season, worked his socks off and has probably been the only player who's played well every game he's played for us. Lingard has made 8 PL appearances this season, 7 of them sub appearances. His 'more goals in the past week' came against a crap Swansea team in the same game, whilst playing for one of the best teams in the country.

Okay, maybe I'm biased with Townsend, but does Lingard deserve a call-up over, say, Demarai Gray? If Lingard played the same for a club like Watford, he would not be in that squad.

Edited by Dan1994 (04 Nov 2017 12.25pm)

 


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Painter Flag Croydon 04 Nov 17 1.31pm Send a Private Message to Painter Add Painter as a friend

Originally posted by Dan1994

So we have to go back to the 70s to find someone that bucks the trend. And by bucking the trend we mean 4 caps, all of which, from what I can gather, were pointless games.

I guarantee you, by the time the World Cup squad comes around, players who should be in the squad on performances won't be there, and we'll still have the some of the run-of-the-mill, bang average players who are on the fringes of the top 6 teams. Oh and Ross Barkley, who will be bigged up as England's next big thing until he's 27 a la Theo Walcott.

Don't get me wrong, it's best if the majority of them are in the top 6 teams, because that means we'll have good players. It's the top 6 fringe players, with limited game time, that get picked that annoys me. When Wilshere is picked for Euro 2016 over Danny Drinkwater and Daniel Sturridge is picked for Euro 2016 over Jermain Defoe, you know something ain't right.

Edited by Dan1994 (04 Nov 2017 10.38am)

Taylor was an example that bias doesn't exist.
Wilshere is head and shoulders over Drinkwater, Sturridge has a better goal ratio than Defoe.
Players from the top 6 get picked as they are the best players generally.
Current squad has 8 players not playing for a top 6 side, which about right, but you may not agree with who they are.

 

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EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 04 Nov 17 1.49pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Dan1994

Defoe didn't even make it into the Euros squad, so I don't know how you can count him in that.

Vardy was incredibly impressive when he was chosen. How he'd not have been chose would've been criminal. Do you really have to be in that kind of form to be picked over someone like Sturridge?

Livermore was picked for a friendly and played against Lithuania - a game which is essentially treated as a friendly by England.

Maguire and Keane have been exceptions, but they're only in the squad due to the lack of English defenders in the top 6 teams. What English defenders, who were available, were missing due to Keane or Maguire's inclusion?

Okay fine, let's compare the two:
Townsend has started every game this season, worked his socks off and has probably been the only player who's played well every game he's played for us. Lingard has made 8 PL appearances this season, 7 of them sub appearances. His 'more goals in the past week' came against a crap Swansea team in the same game, whilst playing for one of the best teams in the country.

Okay, maybe I'm biased with Townsend, but does Lingard deserve a call-up over, say, Demarai Gray? If Lingard played the same for a club like Watford, he would not be in that squad.

Edited by Dan1994 (04 Nov 2017 12.25pm)

I listed those players because you suggested you have to go back to the 70s to break the trend, which is not even remotely true, as I suspect you know. There are numerous examples moreorless every season.

I couldn't care less that Townsend works his socks offs - look at it objectively and tell me how an attacker who's played every game for a club who failed to score for 7 games in a row can possibly be considered for the England squad. Lingard outscored Townsend last season as well, with considerably less playing time.

You cite Lingard's lack of playing time at United, and then suggest Demari Gray, who until recently, couldn't get into the Leicester side over Mark Albrighton - is he international quality as well?

As Painter said below, there are 8 players in the current squad from outside the top 6 - proportionally, I think that sounds about right.

 

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Dan1994 Flag Wallington 04 Nov 17 2.36pm Send a Private Message to Dan1994 Add Dan1994 as a friend

@Painter. Jack Wilshere appeared in 3 games all season on the lead up to the Euros, compared to Drinkwater who was in a title winning squad in the form of his life. Sturridge had barely completed a game by the Euros whilst Defoe scored 15 for a diabolical Sunderland side.

@EverybodyDannsNow. You're right, there are examples, but they'll rarely play anything more than meaningless competitive games or where there is little no option.

Damarai Gray has played 100 more minutes in the PL this season than Lingard, so it can't be the lack of minutes then?

If you wanna look at it objectively, Townsend completes more key passes, 3x as many dribbles and gets fouled more per 90 than Lingard, whilst playing for a much inferior team. Source: whoscored.com

I've already written about those 8, but I'll summarise:
2 on loan (RLC and Abraham) from Chelsea.
3 GKs (no top 6 English GKs exist)
Vardy, who's undroppable at the minute.
Bertrand... Just name another English LB?
Maguire, who I'll admit is an exception to the rule (so that makes 1 out the whole squad for a friendly).

Edited by Dan1994 (04 Nov 2017 2.40pm)

 


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EverybodyDannsNow Flag SE19 04 Nov 17 3.37pm Send a Private Message to EverybodyDannsNow Add EverybodyDannsNow as a friend

Originally posted by Dan1994

@Painter. Jack Wilshere appeared in 3 games all season on the lead up to the Euros, compared to Drinkwater who was in a title winning squad in the form of his life. Sturridge had barely completed a game by the Euros whilst Defoe scored 15 for a diabolical Sunderland side.

@EverybodyDannsNow. You're right, there are examples, but they'll rarely play anything more than meaningless competitive games or where there is little no option.

Damarai Gray has played 100 more minutes in the PL this season than Lingard, so it can't be the lack of minutes then?

If you wanna look at it objectively, Townsend completes more key passes, 3x as many dribbles and gets fouled more per 90 than Lingard, whilst playing for a much inferior team. Source: whoscored.com

I've already written about those 8, but I'll summarise:
2 on loan (RLC and Abraham) from Chelsea.
3 GKs (no top 6 English GKs exist)
Vardy, who's undroppable at the minute.
Bertrand... Just name another English LB?
Maguire, who I'll admit is an exception to the rule (so that makes 1 out the whole squad for a friendly).

Edited by Dan1994 (04 Nov 2017 2.40pm)

You've backed yourself into a corner and are now frantically trying to defend it - using random WhoScored statistics is just clutching at straws.

There's always going to be some justification you can come up with as to why certain players are selected, but the facts are that one third of the squad comes from outside the top six - this is more than a reasonable amount IMO.

Out of interest, who do you think should have been included in the squad who hasn't?

 

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