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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)


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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 08 Mar 17 12.47pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

I am not quite sure how the nuclear deterrent would have prevented two non-nuclear countries within a EEC/EU free Europe entering into conflict between the years 1955 and 2016 so perhaps you could explain?

Which countries might that have been?

 

nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 08 Mar 17 12.51pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Which countries might that have been?

Andorra and Lichtenstein?

 

hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 08 Mar 17 12.53pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

NATO cannot prevent conflict between its members as has been proven with Greece v Turkey and Iceland v UK.

The EEC/Common Market/EU has, however, a 100% clean record and not one bullet in 65 years has been fired amongst its members.

Churchill's main support for Europe coming together and to pursue common economic interests was to prevent future conflict and, so far, he has been totally correct and his vision on that score nothing less than perfect.

NATO was formed to confront a perceived Soviet threat toward Western Europe and the States and not to harmonise peace.

You might just as well say the European Song Contest has been responsible for relative peace.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 08 Mar 17 12.55pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Andorra and Lichtenstein?

A huge row about the goat herding exclusion zone perhaps?

 

jeeagles Flag 08 Mar 17 1.04pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

NATO cannot prevent conflict between its members as has been proven with Greece v Turkey and Iceland v UK.

The EEC/Common Market/EU has, however, a 100% clean record and not one bullet in 65 years has been fired amongst its members.

Churchill's main support for Europe coming together and to pursue common economic interests was to prevent future conflict and, so far, he has been totally correct and his vision on that score nothing less than perfect.

NATO was formed to confront a perceived Soviet threat toward Western Europe and the States and not to harmonise peace.

Agree with Kermit here. Europe is not as stable as people perceive it to be. This isn't just down to prosperity as we were richest before WW1.

Conflict, proxy conflicts, and instability has been a constant around Europe since the end of WWII. Some could argue that it's still going on. We are currently having a proxy war with Russia, and there is a war going on in the Ukraine. On the periphery of Europe we have instability in the Balkans, Georgia, the Middle East, North Africa, Turkey, Greece, Northern Ireland, and Spain. There's serious concern in Finland about the Russians. I'm sure there's plenty more issues plus all there's loads of counties further afield where European nations are involved in armed conflict.

Since the Coal and Steel community started its made it impossible for members to go to war as the shared interest prevent it. NATO on the other hand is failing as they don't have an economic interest to hold them together.

 

Kermit8 Flag Hevon 08 Mar 17 1.05pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Which countries might that have been?


You can't reply to my question so you deliberately deflect as per. But by doing that you have only undermined your supposition so 'ta'.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 08 Mar 17 1.07pm

Originally posted by Kermit8


You can't reply to my question so you deliberately deflect as per. But by doing that you have only undermined your supposition so 'ta'.

It's a fair question.
Since 1945 which European countries were likely to be in conflict?

 

matt_himself Flag Matataland 08 Mar 17 1.09pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

NATO cannot prevent conflict between its members as has been proven with Greece v Turkey and Iceland v UK.

The EEC/Common Market/EU has, however, a 100% clean record and not one bullet in 65 years has been fired amongst its members.

Churchill's main support for Europe coming together and to pursue common economic interests was to prevent future conflict and, so far, he has been totally correct and his vision on that score nothing less than perfect.

NATO was formed to confront a perceived Soviet threat toward Western Europe and the States and not to harmonise peace.

Nato article 8:

Each Party declares that none of the international engagements now in force between it and any other of the Parties or any third State is in conflict with the provisions of this Treaty, and undertakes not to enter into any international engagement in conflict with this Treaty.

[Link]

kind of says that no member of NATO shall attack another member.

Furthermore, Article 5 is very clear on matters:

Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .

Is there something in the EU charter which overrides this, Michael?

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

Sedlescombe Flag Sedlescombe 08 Mar 17 1.31pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

It's a fair question.
Since 1945 which European countries were likely to be in conflict?

Just as it is fair to object to the EU claiming all the credit for "peace in our times" I think to dismiss it as having no contribution to the longest period of peace is also spurious.

One tangible benefit was working with Ireland within the EU having shared interests and working together within the Union to achieve common aims contributed to the building of trust and much improved relationships and this contributed to the success of the peace process taking hold. Is it the only contributing factor? Of course not but it was a key part of that success.

 

hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 08 Mar 17 1.40pm

Originally posted by Sedlescombe

Just as it is fair to object to the EU claiming all the credit for "peace in our times" I think to dismiss it as having no contribution to the longest period of peace is also spurious.

One tangible benefit was working with Ireland within the EU having shared interests and working together within the Union to achieve common aims contributed to the building of trust and much improved relationships and this contributed to the success of the peace process taking hold. Is it the only contributing factor? Of course not but it was a key part of that success.

The peace process in Northern Ireland has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. It is largely the result of the efforts of Blair.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

Sedlescombe Flag Sedlescombe 08 Mar 17 1.48pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

The peace process in Northern Ireland has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. It is largely the result of the efforts of Blair.


Of course it had a significant contribution. from years of hatred and resentment because we were still occupying their country there was a need to negotiate and to work together. you don't think the Irish government were putting pressure on Sinn Fein? I didn't say it was the only thing but it was part of the story.


You are also wildly wrong about Blair being "largely responsible". To her credit Mrs Thatcher had no qualms about negotiating with the IRA. You might also want to google Paddy Mayhew to bring yourself up to speed.

 

hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 08 Mar 17 2.45pm

Originally posted by Sedlescombe


Of course it had a significant contribution. from years of hatred and resentment because we were still occupying their country there was a need to negotiate and to work together. you don't think the Irish government were putting pressure on Sinn Fein? I didn't say it was the only thing but it was part of the story.


You are also wildly wrong about Blair being "largely responsible". To her credit Mrs Thatcher had no qualms about negotiating with the IRA. You might also want to google Paddy Mayhew to bring yourself up to speed.

Did the Irish government put pressure on the IRA? I don't know - would make a change from them turning a blind eye though. Even if they did, why is that necessarily because they were in the EU?

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 08 Mar 17 2.50pm

Originally posted by Sedlescombe

Just as it is fair to object to the EU claiming all the credit for "peace in our times" I think to dismiss it as having no contribution to the longest period of peace is also spurious.

One tangible benefit was working with Ireland within the EU having shared interests and working together within the Union to achieve common aims contributed to the building of trust and much improved relationships and this contributed to the success of the peace process taking hold. Is it the only contributing factor? Of course not but it was a key part of that success.


Was the contribution significant? I'd say no.
Far more significant was the bomb, NATO and a common enemy. Let's also remember that we had peace between 1945 and 1957 with no common market.
The whole argument is desperate and spurious.

 

jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 08 Mar 17 3.00pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

The peace process in Northern Ireland has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. It is largely the result of the efforts of Blair.

Mo Mowlem, Gerry Adams and David Trimble for me are probably three of the most significant figures. Blair as always claimed benefit for the work of others.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 08 Mar 17 3.01pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Did the Irish government put pressure on the IRA? I don't know - would make a change from them turning a blind eye though. Even if they did, why is that necessarily because they were in the EU?

The Catholic community referendum on the Good Friday Agreement, certainly did, given its believed over 90% of Catholics in Northern Ireland supported the agreement.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 08 Mar 17 3.07pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

It's a fair question.
Since 1945 which European countries were likely to be in conflict?

None, post WWII almost all of their international power basis was gone, and the ensuing wars of national liberation largely ended any real likelihood of coming into conflict.

The power in the world had shifted. The 'imperial' European powers were no longer the big players on the board. That was the Americans and Soviet Union.

If anything, its arguable that a rise of a European Superstate would be more of a risk of conflict, as it would draw its interests inevitably against either the Chinese, Russia Federation and US (if it was to obtain its former power basis).

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

steeleye20 Flag Croydon 08 Mar 17 3.07pm

The vote in Northern Ireland now split 50-50 between Unionist and Sinn Fein is bound to be a further weakening of the Union.

 

hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 08 Mar 17 3.13pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

None, post WWII almost all of their international power basis was gone, and the ensuing wars of national liberation largely ended any real likelihood of coming into conflict.

The power in the world had shifted. The 'imperial' European powers were no longer the big players on the board. That was the Americans and Soviet Union.

If anything, its arguable that a rise of a European Superstate would be more of a risk of conflict, as it would draw its interests inevitably against either the Chinese, Russia Federation and US (if it was to obtain its former power basis).

Certainly agree with this.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

matt_himself Flag Matataland 08 Mar 17 8.12pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

Nato article 8:

Each Party declares that none of the international engagements now in force between it and any other of the Parties or any third State is in conflict with the provisions of this Treaty, and undertakes not to enter into any international engagement in conflict with this Treaty.

[Link]

kind of says that no member of NATO shall attack another member.

Furthermore, Article 5 is very clear on matters:

Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .

Is there something in the EU charter which overrides this, Michael?

What a surprise. No response from the lefties.

And I am the 'antagonistic' presence.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 08 Mar 17 8.24pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

None, post WWII almost all of their international power basis was gone, and the ensuing wars of national liberation largely ended any real likelihood of coming into conflict.

The power in the world had shifted. The 'imperial' European powers were no longer the big players on the board. That was the Americans and Soviet Union.

If anything, its arguable that a rise of a European Superstate would be more of a risk of conflict, as it would draw its interests inevitably against either the Chinese, Russia Federation and US (if it was to obtain its former power basis).

Precisely.

 

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