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Originally posted by Kermit8
I am not quite sure how the nuclear deterrent would have prevented two non-nuclear countries within a EEC/EU free Europe entering into conflict between the years 1955 and 2016 so perhaps you could explain? Which countries might that have been?
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| nickgusset |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Which countries might that have been? Andorra and Lichtenstein?
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| hedgehog50 |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
NATO cannot prevent conflict between its members as has been proven with Greece v Turkey and Iceland v UK. The EEC/Common Market/EU has, however, a 100% clean record and not one bullet in 65 years has been fired amongst its members. Churchill's main support for Europe coming together and to pursue common economic interests was to prevent future conflict and, so far, he has been totally correct and his vision on that score nothing less than perfect. NATO was formed to confront a perceived Soviet threat toward Western Europe and the States and not to harmonise peace. You might just as well say the European Song Contest has been responsible for relative peace.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Andorra and Lichtenstein? A huge row about the goat herding exclusion zone perhaps?
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| jeeagles |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
NATO cannot prevent conflict between its members as has been proven with Greece v Turkey and Iceland v UK. The EEC/Common Market/EU has, however, a 100% clean record and not one bullet in 65 years has been fired amongst its members. Churchill's main support for Europe coming together and to pursue common economic interests was to prevent future conflict and, so far, he has been totally correct and his vision on that score nothing less than perfect. NATO was formed to confront a perceived Soviet threat toward Western Europe and the States and not to harmonise peace. Agree with Kermit here. Europe is not as stable as people perceive it to be. This isn't just down to prosperity as we were richest before WW1. Conflict, proxy conflicts, and instability has been a constant around Europe since the end of WWII. Some could argue that it's still going on. We are currently having a proxy war with Russia, and there is a war going on in the Ukraine. On the periphery of Europe we have instability in the Balkans, Georgia, the Middle East, North Africa, Turkey, Greece, Northern Ireland, and Spain. There's serious concern in Finland about the Russians. I'm sure there's plenty more issues plus all there's loads of counties further afield where European nations are involved in armed conflict. Since the Coal and Steel community started its made it impossible for members to go to war as the shared interest prevent it. NATO on the other hand is failing as they don't have an economic interest to hold them together.
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Which countries might that have been?
Big chest and massive boobs |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
It's a fair question.
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Originally posted by Kermit8
NATO cannot prevent conflict between its members as has been proven with Greece v Turkey and Iceland v UK. The EEC/Common Market/EU has, however, a 100% clean record and not one bullet in 65 years has been fired amongst its members. Churchill's main support for Europe coming together and to pursue common economic interests was to prevent future conflict and, so far, he has been totally correct and his vision on that score nothing less than perfect. NATO was formed to confront a perceived Soviet threat toward Western Europe and the States and not to harmonise peace. Nato article 8: Each Party declares that none of the international engagements now in force between it and any other of the Parties or any third State is in conflict with the provisions of this Treaty, and undertakes not to enter into any international engagement in conflict with this Treaty. kind of says that no member of NATO shall attack another member. Furthermore, Article 5 is very clear on matters: Article 5 The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security . Is there something in the EU charter which overrides this, Michael?
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
It's a fair question. Just as it is fair to object to the EU claiming all the credit for "peace in our times" I think to dismiss it as having no contribution to the longest period of peace is also spurious. One tangible benefit was working with Ireland within the EU having shared interests and working together within the Union to achieve common aims contributed to the building of trust and much improved relationships and this contributed to the success of the peace process taking hold. Is it the only contributing factor? Of course not but it was a key part of that success.
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| hedgehog50 |
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Originally posted by Sedlescombe
Just as it is fair to object to the EU claiming all the credit for "peace in our times" I think to dismiss it as having no contribution to the longest period of peace is also spurious. One tangible benefit was working with Ireland within the EU having shared interests and working together within the Union to achieve common aims contributed to the building of trust and much improved relationships and this contributed to the success of the peace process taking hold. Is it the only contributing factor? Of course not but it was a key part of that success. The peace process in Northern Ireland has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. It is largely the result of the efforts of Blair.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
The peace process in Northern Ireland has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. It is largely the result of the efforts of Blair.
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| hedgehog50 |
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Originally posted by Sedlescombe
Did the Irish government put pressure on the IRA? I don't know - would make a change from them turning a blind eye though. Even if they did, why is that necessarily because they were in the EU?
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Originally posted by Sedlescombe
Just as it is fair to object to the EU claiming all the credit for "peace in our times" I think to dismiss it as having no contribution to the longest period of peace is also spurious. One tangible benefit was working with Ireland within the EU having shared interests and working together within the Union to achieve common aims contributed to the building of trust and much improved relationships and this contributed to the success of the peace process taking hold. Is it the only contributing factor? Of course not but it was a key part of that success.
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| jamiemartin721 |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
The peace process in Northern Ireland has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. It is largely the result of the efforts of Blair. Mo Mowlem, Gerry Adams and David Trimble for me are probably three of the most significant figures. Blair as always claimed benefit for the work of others.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 |
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Originally posted by hedgehog50
Did the Irish government put pressure on the IRA? I don't know - would make a change from them turning a blind eye though. Even if they did, why is that necessarily because they were in the EU? The Catholic community referendum on the Good Friday Agreement, certainly did, given its believed over 90% of Catholics in Northern Ireland supported the agreement.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
It's a fair question. None, post WWII almost all of their international power basis was gone, and the ensuing wars of national liberation largely ended any real likelihood of coming into conflict. The power in the world had shifted. The 'imperial' European powers were no longer the big players on the board. That was the Americans and Soviet Union. If anything, its arguable that a rise of a European Superstate would be more of a risk of conflict, as it would draw its interests inevitably against either the Chinese, Russia Federation and US (if it was to obtain its former power basis).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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The vote in Northern Ireland now split 50-50 between Unionist and Sinn Fein is bound to be a further weakening of the Union.
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| hedgehog50 |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
None, post WWII almost all of their international power basis was gone, and the ensuing wars of national liberation largely ended any real likelihood of coming into conflict. The power in the world had shifted. The 'imperial' European powers were no longer the big players on the board. That was the Americans and Soviet Union. If anything, its arguable that a rise of a European Superstate would be more of a risk of conflict, as it would draw its interests inevitably against either the Chinese, Russia Federation and US (if it was to obtain its former power basis). Certainly agree with this.
We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell] |
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Originally posted by matt_himself
Nato article 8: Each Party declares that none of the international engagements now in force between it and any other of the Parties or any third State is in conflict with the provisions of this Treaty, and undertakes not to enter into any international engagement in conflict with this Treaty. kind of says that no member of NATO shall attack another member. Furthermore, Article 5 is very clear on matters: Article 5 The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area. Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security . Is there something in the EU charter which overrides this, Michael? What a surprise. No response from the lefties. And I am the 'antagonistic' presence.
"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02 |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
None, post WWII almost all of their international power basis was gone, and the ensuing wars of national liberation largely ended any real likelihood of coming into conflict. The power in the world had shifted. The 'imperial' European powers were no longer the big players on the board. That was the Americans and Soviet Union. If anything, its arguable that a rise of a European Superstate would be more of a risk of conflict, as it would draw its interests inevitably against either the Chinese, Russia Federation and US (if it was to obtain its former power basis). Precisely.
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