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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)


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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 02 May 17 8.28am

Originally posted by Kermit8

They've set out their stall. Been open about it too. Bills to be paid, rights for citizens guaranteed and no hard border between the two Irelands.

If we refuse to pay our full financial obligations then that is going to put everything else on hold and welching won't look good at all for potential new trading partners.

What do Hard Brexiteers think? Pay what's due or do a runner when they aren't looking?

Declare war on them.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

matt_himself Flag Matataland 02 May 17 8.40am

Originally posted by Kermit8

They've set out their stall. Been open about it too. Bills to be paid, rights for citizens guaranteed and no hard border between the two Irelands.

If we refuse to pay our full financial obligations then that is going to put everything else on hold and welching won't look good at all for potential new trading partners.

What do Hard Brexiteers think? Pay what's due or do a runner when they aren't looking?

Firstly, is there any evidence, from a credible independent source, of the liabilities and if yes, what the figures are that we 'owe'?

Secondly, Theresa May appears to want to do a deal on EU migrants rights quickly. From the reports, it appears that Juncker was the one whom said a deal couldn't be done quickly? Why not? The government was willing to do this and remove uncertainty for people living here whom are EU passport holders, surely the EU is not delaying removing their uncertainty for the 'greater good' of playing Brexit politics? He saintly EU would never do that.

Basically the way I read this is that the EU has, to the immediate detriment of EU citizens residing in the U.K., played politics and is attempting to influence the general election. If Trump had done something like this, he left would be all over this as evidence of a 'dilution of democracy'. Planting stories in the press is oldest trick in the book and he Bremoaners are lapping it up. Good on Theresa for not relaliating in the manner Juncker and co clearly wanted.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

matt_himself Flag Matataland 02 May 17 12.58pm

Nick Clegg, that shining example of principle, has said that Brexit will cost us '£500' each, a different estimate from Osbourne's £3,500 each in the referendum:

[Link]

I would happily stump up a monkey to get out of the Socialist Federation of Greater Germany.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 02 May 17 1.16pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Declare war on them.

You heard it here first.
Sorry it's long. Nicked from social media.

Theresa May, The EU and the Main Stream Media.
The next move is WAR!

In an attempt to add some street cred to this I am a Psychologist (34 years) and a Psychotherapist (15 years) with a particular interest in the field of propaganda. It is all around us and it fascinates me.

Anyway, that aside, there is a huge potential as yet untapped by the Tories and the MSM that is only now having its foundations very carefully laid. That is the scenario of the ‘War Hero’. The air around us is only just beginning to crackle and smoulder with stories of an impending and unavoidable conflict. There is, right now, much sabre rattling accompanied by alarm bells currently sounding quite softly in the background. Soon it will get MUCH louder. Indeed it is being lined up to become a cacophony of background noise that will drown out truth and reason to become what is now called an ‘alternative truth’. In too many people it will be willingly accepted, swallowed and oft regurgitated as being the 5th Gospel. For them it will BECOME the ‘new’ truth.

When it does, and as a result of being planted in ground well fertilised with bulls***, that ‘new’ truth will give us but one given option and that is for us do our ‘king and country’ duty and rally behind a shining and courageous leader in the midst of a cruel and unwarranted war being waged against us by that ever present and eternal adversary, ‘Johnny Foreigner’ (whomever that has been in the past – and there have been many) or, if not, to be labelled ‘traitor’ or ‘heretic’ or even ‘saboteur’. (Where have I heard that before I wonder?)

The MSM stories will be all about a terrible and ugly enemy (the evil and rapacious EU this time) trying to wage a bloodthirsty war on this our ‘Great’ Britain. There to put us to the fiscal sword we stand firm upon our ‘Britishness’. Outnumbered and alone maybe but we shall overcome if only we pull together. It is, after all, the good old British way. A small but brave island race standing unaided shoulder to shoulder under one flag and with one single purpose. All alone we will be facing a sea of hatred simply for trying to stand up in defence of good old British values. It will be against all the odds and in circumstances of complete innocence on our part. We either make our stand or give in to the will of a despicable enemy hell bent on the destruction of this green and pleasant land we all love so deeply. For the sake of our children and our children’s children we must ride out and stand fast to defeat the EU enemy at the very gates of hell. Images of the past ‘glories’ of this, the greatest nation on earth, will be conjured up out of altered memory to help puff out the national chest and give us hope of victory against yet another dreadful enemy.

We, as an heroic and ancient race will be left standing alone against an adversary of 27 nations combined. A grasping horde of the rabid and malevolent wandering abroad in their sickness, their growing immorality and their unjustifiable wickedness. Indeed, as in true wartime spirit, pulling together is the one and only way forward. “Come Brothers and Sisters – to glory beneath the flag and a magnificent “strong and stable” leader! In this way, and only this way, we WILL prevail.” This beginning to sound familiar yet? It will actually get that dramatic believe it or not. Remember the Falklands? And as silly as it all sounds to you and I, it certainly won’t sound silly to far too many.

At this point if not before Theresa May will be conveniently slotted in to the picture like a hand in a glove as our saviour and the only one who can see us through the inevitable approaching conflict. She will be offered up as the hero of the day. OUR hero. A Great British hero. The only “strong and stable” leader willing and able to save us from the enemy beating their fist at our national door.

There will be kindly but increasingly firm comparisons with Winston Churchill and Thatcher and especially the Falklands War that saved her political hide. Indeed Michael Howard has already started the ball rolling there some month or so ago when he talked of invading Gibraltar in a war against the Spanish. And anyone who thinks that was a chance remark or one that was not ‘planted’ then please think again.

There will probably be pictures of St. George with Theresa May’s photo-shopped face slaying the EU Dragon. Heart of oak and sword in hand she and she alone will march forward as our very own Joan of Arc (don’t worry the gullible won’t recognise the irony) into battle for us all. She will be our one and only chance to triumph. To triumph against an enemy that in reality exists only in MSM fairy stories and on a TV heavily biased against anything that may undermine the narrative of ‘Cometh the Hour – Cometh the Woman’. People love heroes.

The demonization of the EU began years ago and as soon as it has been whipped into a frenzy Saint Theresa will be presented as a gleaming goddess in shining armour ready to strike the enemy down with a single blow. “Conquer or die!” and “Hard Brexit – who cares?!” What a leader eh?

Me ‘over egging the pudding’? Well maybe – we shall see, but as the furore grows and the shrill voices of the MSM get louder with the language of propaganda amplifying in both print and voice I think you’ll see what I mean appearing before your very eyes very soon playmates.

It will come. It is tried and tested and what propagandists do. The trick is recognising it and countering it BEFORE it arrives. To take a boxing maxim “It’s always harder to punch your opponent when you’re on the back foot”.

Someone in the Labour Party (I hope) is already working on this? Foresight and counter-strategy is an art form and one that is essential in a propaganda war. Remember “A lie is half way around the world before the truth has got it’s trousers on.” (Winston Spencer Churchill.)

I just hope someone in the Labour Party is keeping their trousers on - and at all times.

TC.

GB.

 

Lyons550 Flag Shirley 02 May 17 1.35pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

What about people who go to Europe for a few hours to meet potential new clients. At the moment it's possible to arrange a meeting in Paris in the morning and be there for it in the afternoon. A visa system would slow things right down. We'd lose a certain amount of dynamism.


SKYPE

 


The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550 Flag Shirley 02 May 17 1.40pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

You heard it here first.
Sorry it's long. Nicked from social media.

Theresa May, The EU and the Main Stream Media.
The next move is WAR!

In an attempt to add some street cred to this I am a Psychologist (34 years) and a Psychotherapist (15 years) with a particular interest in the field of propaganda. It is all around us and it fascinates me.

Anyway, that aside, there is a huge potential as yet untapped by the Tories and the MSM that is only now having its foundations very carefully laid. That is the scenario of the ‘War Hero’. The air around us is only just beginning to crackle and smoulder with stories of an impending and unavoidable conflict. There is, right now, much sabre rattling accompanied by alarm bells currently sounding quite softly in the background. Soon it will get MUCH louder. Indeed it is being lined up to become a cacophony of background noise that will drown out truth and reason to become what is now called an ‘alternative truth’. In too many people it will be willingly accepted, swallowed and oft regurgitated as being the 5th Gospel. For them it will BECOME the ‘new’ truth.

When it does, and as a result of being planted in ground well fertilised with bulls***, that ‘new’ truth will give us but one given option and that is for us do our ‘king and country’ duty and rally behind a shining and courageous leader in the midst of a cruel and unwarranted war being waged against us by that ever present and eternal adversary, ‘Johnny Foreigner’ (whomever that has been in the past – and there have been many) or, if not, to be labelled ‘traitor’ or ‘heretic’ or even ‘saboteur’. (Where have I heard that before I wonder?)

The MSM stories will be all about a terrible and ugly enemy (the evil and rapacious EU this time) trying to wage a bloodthirsty war on this our ‘Great’ Britain. There to put us to the fiscal sword we stand firm upon our ‘Britishness’. Outnumbered and alone maybe but we shall overcome if only we pull together. It is, after all, the good old British way. A small but brave island race standing unaided shoulder to shoulder under one flag and with one single purpose. All alone we will be facing a sea of hatred simply for trying to stand up in defence of good old British values. It will be against all the odds and in circumstances of complete innocence on our part. We either make our stand or give in to the will of a despicable enemy hell bent on the destruction of this green and pleasant land we all love so deeply. For the sake of our children and our children’s children we must ride out and stand fast to defeat the EU enemy at the very gates of hell. Images of the past ‘glories’ of this, the greatest nation on earth, will be conjured up out of altered memory to help puff out the national chest and give us hope of victory against yet another dreadful enemy.

We, as an heroic and ancient race will be left standing alone against an adversary of 27 nations combined. A grasping horde of the rabid and malevolent wandering abroad in their sickness, their growing immorality and their unjustifiable wickedness. Indeed, as in true wartime spirit, pulling together is the one and only way forward. “Come Brothers and Sisters – to glory beneath the flag and a magnificent “strong and stable” leader! In this way, and only this way, we WILL prevail.” This beginning to sound familiar yet? It will actually get that dramatic believe it or not. Remember the Falklands? And as silly as it all sounds to you and I, it certainly won’t sound silly to far too many.

At this point if not before Theresa May will be conveniently slotted in to the picture like a hand in a glove as our saviour and the only one who can see us through the inevitable approaching conflict. She will be offered up as the hero of the day. OUR hero. A Great British hero. The only “strong and stable” leader willing and able to save us from the enemy beating their fist at our national door.

There will be kindly but increasingly firm comparisons with Winston Churchill and Thatcher and especially the Falklands War that saved her political hide. Indeed Michael Howard has already started the ball rolling there some month or so ago when he talked of invading Gibraltar in a war against the Spanish. And anyone who thinks that was a chance remark or one that was not ‘planted’ then please think again.

There will probably be pictures of St. George with Theresa May’s photo-shopped face slaying the EU Dragon. Heart of oak and sword in hand she and she alone will march forward as our very own Joan of Arc (don’t worry the gullible won’t recognise the irony) into battle for us all. She will be our one and only chance to triumph. To triumph against an enemy that in reality exists only in MSM fairy stories and on a TV heavily biased against anything that may undermine the narrative of ‘Cometh the Hour – Cometh the Woman’. People love heroes.

The demonization of the EU began years ago and as soon as it has been whipped into a frenzy Saint Theresa will be presented as a gleaming goddess in shining armour ready to strike the enemy down with a single blow. “Conquer or die!” and “Hard Brexit – who cares?!” What a leader eh?

Me ‘over egging the pudding’? Well maybe – we shall see, but as the furore grows and the shrill voices of the MSM get louder with the language of propaganda amplifying in both print and voice I think you’ll see what I mean appearing before your very eyes very soon playmates.

It will come. It is tried and tested and what propagandists do. The trick is recognising it and countering it BEFORE it arrives. To take a boxing maxim “It’s always harder to punch your opponent when you’re on the back foot”.

Someone in the Labour Party (I hope) is already working on this? Foresight and counter-strategy is an art form and one that is essential in a propaganda war. Remember “A lie is half way around the world before the truth has got it’s trousers on.” (Winston Spencer Churchill.)

I just hope someone in the Labour Party is keeping their trousers on - and at all times.

TC.

GB.


You do realise the irony of posting an article from someone admitting they have a "a particular interest in the field of propaganda. "...dont you?

 


The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

pefwin Flag Where you have to have an English ... 02 May 17 2.01pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

Nick Clegg, that shining example of principle, has said that Brexit will cost us '£500' each, a different estimate from Osbourne's £3,500 each in the referendum:

[Link]

I would happily stump up a monkey to get out of the Socialist Federation of Greater Germany.

Please don't sell close family members. It's only Brexit.

 


"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

matt_himself Flag Matataland 02 May 17 2.49pm

Originally posted by pefwin

Please don't sell close family members. It's only Brexit.

And you call me a troll. It's not even funny and borderline racist given my family circumstances.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

Stirlingsays Flag 02 May 17 2.55pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Declare war on them.

It's about time someone said that.

'Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!'

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Kermit8 Flag Hevon 02 May 17 8.32pm

Independent Editorial today:


The Brexit negotiations have hardly begun, and have already broken down. That is not too alarmist a verdict on what appear to be reliable reports about the informal discussions over dinner between Theresa May and Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European Commission.

According to these accounts, and public remarks by the German Chancellor Angela Merkel, the British Government is entirely deluded about what to expect from the talks. Ms May is labouring under the illusion that she has bargaining power and that that power will be greatly enhanced if she wins a landslide victory in her unnecessary and premature general election. That is a blunder almost as historic as David Cameron's when he pledged an in/out referendum. It will lead to national disaster.

The Europeans are making it as clear as they can within diplomatic conventions that the British have very few cards to play, and the EU negotiators aren't much interested in the make up of the House of Commons.

So Ms May's bluff is being called, and the realities behind the diplomacy of Brexit are coming into focus. Europe is the world's largest trading and economic bloc. The UK is a great trading nation that earns an uncomfortably high proportion of its living from trade and investment with the continent. We need them more than they need us. That is the fundamental truth about the balance of power.

A rational deal advantageous to both sides, which is to say superior to the status quo, is impossible, because no possible terms can be better than the single market regime. A deal that is better than no deal is possible, and desirable, and mutually beneficial – but not inevitable.


Theresa May accuses remaining 27 EU members of ‘lining up to oppose’ Britain over Brexit
The dream of the hard Brexiteers and the nightmare of the Remainers is identical: the UK crashes out of the EU, has to adjust to whatever Europe decides, and tours the globe looking for deals with nations from the US to South Korea who are prioritising the EU. No amount of fantasy about a second Elizabethan era of buccaneering entrepreneurs winning new export markets will compensate for the migration of the car industry, aerospace, food processing and the City to the rest of the EU or elsewhere in the world. Communities will lose jobs, investment will collapse and Britain will recede into being the sick man of Europe as it was before joining the EU in 1973.

It takes two, in other words, to make a deal and if the EU is as united and clear in its objectives as it seems, and with the economic and political muscle to back that up, then, as has been made clear, the UK will be lucky to get the kind of limited deal Canada obtained after a decade of wrangling. To be fair to the Prime Minister, it seems to be that it is the EU Commission that is making future arrangements for EU citizens in the UK more difficult than needs be, but that merely demonstrates who wields the power in the EU-UK relationship. It also makes the case for an open and unilateral offer of full rights to those people more compelling.

That, as they say, is the big picture. But these developments shed light on other non-trivial matters. It is plain that, whatever Theresa May and David Davis may desire, these talks are not going to be kept secret, and it is shameful that the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung knows more about what is going on than do the British people in the middle of a general election. It is something the new Commons should find intolerable.

Brexit is increasingly meaning hard Brexit. If that is what this election is really about then the Prime Minister should say so. If not then she cannot take what happens on 8 June as any kind of mandate for her position and in any case she must offer the British people a say on the eventual terms of Brexit. If they are going to be as mean as they look now, then few in full possession of the facts would vote to leave, even if they'd grudgingly agree to have her in No 10. She needs to come clean with the people. Now is the time.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]


matt_himself Flag Matataland 02 May 17 8.40pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

Independent Editorial today:


The Brexit negotiations have hardly begun, and have already broken down. That is not too alarmist a verdict on what appear to be reliable reports about the informal discussions over dinner between Theresa May and Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European Commission.

According to these accounts, and public remarks by the German Chancellor Angela Merkel, the British Government is entirely deluded about what to expect from the talks. Ms May is labouring under the illusion that she has bargaining power and that that power will be greatly enhanced if she wins a landslide victory in her unnecessary and premature general election. That is a blunder almost as historic as David Cameron's when he pledged an in/out referendum. It will lead to national disaster.

The Europeans are making it as clear as they can within diplomatic conventions that the British have very few cards to play, and the EU negotiators aren't much interested in the make up of the House of Commons.

So Ms May's bluff is being called, and the realities behind the diplomacy of Brexit are coming into focus. Europe is the world's largest trading and economic bloc. The UK is a great trading nation that earns an uncomfortably high proportion of its living from trade and investment with the continent. We need them more than they need us. That is the fundamental truth about the balance of power.

A rational deal advantageous to both sides, which is to say superior to the status quo, is impossible, because no possible terms can be better than the single market regime. A deal that is better than no deal is possible, and desirable, and mutually beneficial – but not inevitable.


Theresa May accuses remaining 27 EU members of ‘lining up to oppose’ Britain over Brexit
The dream of the hard Brexiteers and the nightmare of the Remainers is identical: the UK crashes out of the EU, has to adjust to whatever Europe decides, and tours the globe looking for deals with nations from the US to South Korea who are prioritising the EU. No amount of fantasy about a second Elizabethan era of buccaneering entrepreneurs winning new export markets will compensate for the migration of the car industry, aerospace, food processing and the City to the rest of the EU or elsewhere in the world. Communities will lose jobs, investment will collapse and Britain will recede into being the sick man of Europe as it was before joining the EU in 1973.

It takes two, in other words, to make a deal and if the EU is as united and clear in its objectives as it seems, and with the economic and political muscle to back that up, then, as has been made clear, the UK will be lucky to get the kind of limited deal Canada obtained after a decade of wrangling. To be fair to the Prime Minister, it seems to be that it is the EU Commission that is making future arrangements for EU citizens in the UK more difficult than needs be, but that merely demonstrates who wields the power in the EU-UK relationship. It also makes the case for an open and unilateral offer of full rights to those people more compelling.

That, as they say, is the big picture. But these developments shed light on other non-trivial matters. It is plain that, whatever Theresa May and David Davis may desire, these talks are not going to be kept secret, and it is shameful that the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung knows more about what is going on than do the British people in the middle of a general election. It is something the new Commons should find intolerable.

Brexit is increasingly meaning hard Brexit. If that is what this election is really about then the Prime Minister should say so. If not then she cannot take what happens on 8 June as any kind of mandate for her position and in any case she must offer the British people a say on the eventual terms of Brexit. If they are going to be as mean as they look now, then few in full possession of the facts would vote to leave, even if they'd grudgingly agree to have her in No 10. She needs to come clean with the people. Now is the time.

A biased, load of old w***, seeking to capitalise on the EU's attempt to influence the UK General Election and spread fear & misinformation.

BTW, we didn't join the EU in 1973, we joined the Common Market. And joining the Common Market didn't sort out our problems in the '70s. Maggie did.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

Kermit8 Flag Hevon 02 May 17 8.50pm

^^^^

It may well be biased but it could also end up being pretty much on the mark. A frightening proposition for the UK and very worrying for its - and our - prospects if so.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]


matt_himself Flag Matataland 02 May 17 8.55pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

^^^^

It may well be biased but it could also end up being pretty much on the mark. A frightening proposition for the UK and very worrying for its - and our - prospects if so.

Politically motivated crap, peddled to try and influence the election.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

Y Ddraig Goch Flag In The Crowd 02 May 17 9.00pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

^^^^

It may well be biased but it could also end up being pretty much on the mark. A frightening proposition for the UK and very worrying for its - and our - prospects if so.

It could but it is in Europes interest for a deal to be made too. Greece is still up s*** creek sans paddle and the impact on the euro if that's not sorted doesn't bare thinking about.

Arguably we need the deal more, but that doesn't mean it isn't in the EUs interest either.

 


the dignified don't even enter in the game

nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 02 May 17 10.57pm

Originally posted by Lyons550


You do realise the irony of posting an article from someone admitting they have a "a particular interest in the field of propaganda. "...dont you?

Only if you view it through that lens.

It's a bit bonkers but the way this last couple of years have been is not beyond the realms of possibility, especially the bit about May's face photoshopped onto Brittania

 

davenotamonkey Flag 02 May 17 11.04pm

Our divorce bill just increased to €100bn.

[Link]

Walk.

 

davenotamonkey Flag 02 May 17 11.09pm

"The commission has never published its preferred methodology"

Never has a single sentence so perfectly encapsulated the EU.

 

Kermit8 Flag Hevon 02 May 17 11.13pm

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

Our divorce bill just increased to €100bn.

[Link]

Walk.

How could it get to that and how could the Leave nor Remain campaign keep us in the dark if that is true and our obliged financial commitments are 100bn euros?

We can't walk. We owe what we owe. It will make us a bad credit risk going out into the big world.

This stinks.

 


Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]


Kermit8 Flag Hevon 02 May 17 11.14pm

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

"The commission has never published its preferred methodology"

Never has a single sentence so perfectly encapsulated the EU.

Has anyone asked them to?

 


Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]


Jimenez Flag SELHURSTPARKCHESTER,DA BRONX 03 May 17 12.47am

Maybe remind Germany of the London Debt agreement.

[Link]

 


Pro USA & Israel

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