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Blasts in London


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cpfc-rjd Flag Beckenham and the BBS 15 Jul 05 10.58am

We're not the Judean Peoples Front, we're the Peoples Front of Judea etc etc

 

"Her very Lowness with her head in a sling
I'm truly sorry but it sounds like a wonderful thing"

NEITHER LEFT OR RIGHT BUT OUT IN FRONT

[Link]
Balham Burner Flag 15 Jul 05 10.59am

Quote cpfc-rjd at 15 Jul 2005 10:52am

Quote Balham Burner at 15 Jul 2005 10:47am

"Only then will the innocents here and abroad be able to enjoy a life free of the threat of needless violence"

There is such a thing as nuance rjd - GG is clever enough not to be explicit. His message is obvious though - although I've never said he "condoned" the attacks (unlike his support for attacks against Israel).

I always thought he was a stalinist rather than Trotskyite - same difference though really.

I know people who worked in Bethnal Green and Bow in the election. His activists were alledgedly going round Bengali houses telling them not to vote for Oona King because she was Jewish.

Total scum.

Edited by Balham Burner (15 Jul 2005 10:48am)


As I said, BOTH parties used dodgy tactics in BG.

GG may be a leftie but he doesn't support Al-Queda and to say he does is frankly ludicrous. If anything, Respect is designed to get young radical Muslims involved in politics rather than fundamentalism. This is something that Al-Queda et al despise.

Stalinism and Trotskyism are very different. In the old days, as a Labour man you'd have known that!

LOL!! Hey I know the difference between the beliefs of Stalin and Trotsky.

Respect is another SWP front organisation which Galloway will discard when he gets bored. He has apparently already reneged on his promise to stand down after a term in favour of an ethnic minority candidate.

As for dodgy tactics in BG - we didn't use (alledged) racism as an electoral tactic...

I am surprised at you cpfc-rjd, you come accross as pretty smart. Believe nothing that Galloway propagates.

 
Balham Burner Flag 15 Jul 05 11.01am

Quote halfmanhalfslug at 15 Jul 2005 10:58am

It's called debate, NPN.

Balham Burner there is one key word in your post about Galloway -- "alleged". Proof please?

Galloway's a prat, but at least he is an honest prat. And he made the US Senate look like the crooks they are.

Galloway has exposed electoral fraud in his new constituency, why didn't you highlight that? Because it makes him look honest?

COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Are you serious?????

OK - I don't want to turn this into a Galloway rant. Let's get back to the point.


Edited by Balham Burner (15 Jul 2005 11:09am)

 
Balham Burner Flag 15 Jul 05 11.03am

Quote halfmanhalfslug at 15 Jul 2005 10:58am

It's called debate, NPN.

Balham Burner there is one key word in your post about Galloway -- "alleged". Proof please?

Galloway's a prat, but at least he is an honest prat. And he made the US Senate look like the crooks they are.

Galloway has exposed electoral fraud in his new constituency, why didn't you highlight that? Because it makes him look honest?

From people who worked on the ground in BG - I trust what they say..but I say alleged because I didn't hear it with my own ears.

 
cpfc-rjd Flag Beckenham and the BBS 15 Jul 05 11.09am

Quote Balham Burner at 15 Jul 2005 10:59am


I am surprised at you cpfc-rjd, you come accross as pretty smart. Believe nothing that Galloway propagates.


Hey, I AM super smart!

Galloway is not the devil, he has his problems (and a massive ego) but is a very good public speaker and his views will bring some much needed balance to the commons and the centrist coalition that exists at present (even if you don't agree with him.) but we'll leave that for another thread.

 

"Her very Lowness with her head in a sling
I'm truly sorry but it sounds like a wonderful thing"

NEITHER LEFT OR RIGHT BUT OUT IN FRONT

[Link]
npn Flag Crowborough 15 Jul 05 11.43am

Quote halfmanhalfslug at 15 Jul 2005 10:58am

It's called debate, NPN.

Actually, it was aimed at rjd and BB - I'm afraid your opinions lost any remaining credibility with me after your last lengthy post in which you slated Petealiator for hurling insults and threats of violence followed by insulting him and threatening him with violence.

The other two I disagree with on most things political, but still have some respect for their views, and they tend to structure their arguments a little better.

 
NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 15 Jul 05 12.13pm

Quote halfmanhalfslug at 15 Jul 2005 9:15am
To deny that Iraq is a major factor in the London bombings is disingenuous, and unhelpful. (Apologies to Reborn who can't handle long words but he's probably loitering around the playgrounds by now anyway, handing out sweeties.) Yes, 9/11 predated the current Iraq war, but 9/11 was an attack on America, not Britain.

First, you complain about people attacking you and yet you do exactly the same, re. the above comments about reborn (and paedophilia) and Cucking (on another thread). I cannot see, given your comments, how you consider yourself to be any different from what you accuse them to be.

The World Trade Centre was picked as it was a symbol of western capitalism. Read their rhetoric. It was an attack on any and all countries that support trade. By the way, more Britains were killed in 9/11 than last week thus to say it was not an attack on us is an absurd suggestion.

Quote
Al Q have repeatedly stated their aims are not to restore the Islamic caliphate - something I'm not convinced would animate the majority of the world's Muslims anyway - but to restore the 'purity' of Arab and holy Islamic lands from US occupation. (Not my opinion, please note, but theirs.) NickinOX asked a while back which countries the US should withdraw from - let's start with Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan and see how we get on. Israel may not have US troops but has zillions of dollars worth of money and equipment used to shoot children in their classrooms, do you not think this might affect people? Up to 2003, most Al Q attacks were against US territory, personnel, or interests. But now that the UK has joined the illegal invasion of Iraq, we are now a target - and hey presto, four big bangs go off.

Before 2003 most Al-Qaida attacks were against europeans and others. Check the list given out by the BBC. Now they are mostly against ordinary Iraqis. IF they really want to liberate Iraq, why do they not only target Americans, and other occupying forces? The same could be said of Afghanistan.

Al-Qaida has regularly changed its goals, from purity for Saudi to destruction of the west. I don't even think they know what they want. It is all an excuse for violence.

The US has largely withdrawn its troops from Saudi, an original demand of Al-Qaida, Kuwait wants to keep them (as they pour huge amounts of money into the economy, the Afghan operation is a UN operation with many other countries taking part, and the operation would logistically collapse without the Americans. Thus leaving the millions who have returned to Afghanistan in the lurch. The Iraqi government wants the US to stay, for now, and a withdrawal would leave a terrible security vaccum that only the extremists could plug. Thus returning the country to a much worse state than it is currently in.

The Palestinians receive millions of US dollars and also European money, and their corrupt politicians have stolen it. What is your point? I note that you use a typically emotive idea, what about the bus bombers blowing up Israeli children, is that not equally unjust?

Quote
Ask any British Muslim and most will tell you they are angry about Iraq. If Iraq is not angering British Muslims as some of you claim, then can you please explain George Galloway's landslide election victory? Is there a large Scottish contingent in east London now?

I have friends from that borough and I also checked the BBC election site. He did not win by a landside as you claim. Both sides stooped to the lowest common denminatorr in an incredibly racist campaign, which included multiple death threats and attacks on opponents. Furthermore, you highlight a good point for me. Those British Muslims might be upset about Iraq, but they by and large used the ballot box to legitimately show this. Those British bombers had a vote. They should have used it.

Quote
We can never be 100% sure what motivated those four twisted souls, but we can be pretty sure that Iraq - where this country's forces contribute to a 7/7 every single day - was a major factor.

How on earth do British troops contribute to a 7/7 every day in Iraq? They spend most of their time getting shot at trying to prevent such things. That is like saying the poilice here are contributing because they cannot catch all the bombers!

Quote
We MUST understand - but not condone or excuse - the motivations for these murders, otherwise how can we stop the next ones? Denial is pointless and counter-productive. Like ignoring the fascists in our own ranks, be that South London or Yarmouth or wherever, we are only storing up bigger problems for later on. So we are right to ask the British Muslim population to watch their own, as we must do too... but we must also ensure that our country behaves ethically too, and that means not killing innocent people. 7/7 was a horrific day in London - and yet by comparison a quiet afternoon in Falluja. The world stopped for 2 minutes for 50 Londoners yesterday, but who stopped for even a moment for 20 Iraqi kids? Nobody is even counting their dead - and while they remain deemed worth less than us, they will fight back. I'd expect us to do the same if it happened to us.

Yes there are people counting the Iraqi loss. I gave you a website that is counting the dead in Iraq. Thus again you are stating a falsehood.

We do understand that there are people in Britain upset by the Iraq war. Almost 1 million marched peacefully in an anti-war rally. Many voted against the government, but the vast majority did not go out to deliberately target and kill innocent civilians. They have no justification for it, they are purely misguided murdering criminals. To try and give their ideas some credit provides them with the justification they are trying to claim for themselves.

You also keep talking about they. These were not Iraqis fighting back trying to get rid of an external power in their own country. This was illegitimate British criminals, mudering fellow British for no valid reason other than their own misguided beliefs.

You can bet that this was not cut and then pasted from somewhere else.


Edited by NickinOX (15 Jul 2005 1:50pm)

 

If you come to a fork in the road, take it.
NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 15 Jul 05 12.20pm

Quote halfmanhalfslug at 15 Jul 2005 10:58am

It's called debate, NPN.

Balham Burner there is one key word in your post about Galloway -- "alleged". Proof please?

Galloway's a prat, but at least he is an honest prat. And he made the US Senate look like the crooks they are.

He was not in front of the senate.

His grandstanding was good theatre but little more than that. One crucial question was posed to him by the only left wing committee member and he refused to say whether he knew if his close firends had profited from the oil for food scandal. He was asked several times and failed to answer on each occassion. What does that tell you about his honesty.

Edited by NickinOX (15 Jul 2005 12:27pm)

 

If you come to a fork in the road, take it.
reborn 15 Jul 05 1.57pm

Galloway is scum, he is a no principled opportunist, he cares for nothing other than publicity.

I'd spit in his face if I ever met him>

 

My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs
Balham Burner Flag 15 Jul 05 1.59pm

For the first time reborn we agree on something political!!

When I see him I feel the same as you!

 
npn Flag Crowborough 15 Jul 05 2.09pm

Quote Balham Burner at 15 Jul 2005 1:59pm

For the first time reborn we agree on something political!!

When I see him I feel the same as you!

The whole world's gone wibbly-wobbly.

Next we'll have BB singing Lady Thatcher's praises, me praising Blair (which I nearly did for his reaction to the attack, but couldn't bring myself to do publicly), and Pete and HMHS enjoying a pint together while discussing the merits of the latest Britney Spears album!

 
johnno42000 Flag 15 Jul 05 2.23pm

I don't know whether any of you have seen the Guardian article regarding a combined effort by football hooligans to unite in attacks against Muslims?

I have got a sneaking suspicion that some journalist from the Guardian may have been looking at our beloved HOL website. The reason I say this is that under this topic there is a link to a discussion on the Arsenal site. This link is to do with a march that is being planned to celebrate being British and to try and stop some of the more extreme Muslim speakers.

Now I do not know whether this is a right wing march, or just people trying to make a point that the British aren't prepared to stand quietly by whilst certain Muslims (not all by any means) talk about things that are anti-British.

I honestly do not know, but being a suspicious sort of person I would guess that the Guardian have seen this and automatically assumed that it is a right wing gathering with Palace supporters involved along with Arsenal and others. I suspect you will find this link on the other clubs sites as well.

Once again if you speak up for your country you are automatically branded rascist by certain papers, but if you want to be anti-British and wish to speak against the British way of life you are allowed to do it...very strange!!!

 

'Lies to the masses as are like fly's to mollasses...they want more and more and more'
furrybloke Flag Hemel Hempstead 15 Jul 05 2.29pm

Chemist has been nicked in Cairo

[Link]

Edited by Moose (19 Jul 2005 9:52am)

 
npn Flag Crowborough 15 Jul 05 2.29pm

Quote johnno42000 at 15 Jul 2005 2:23pm


This link is to do with a march that is being planned to celebrate being British and to try and stop some of the more extreme Muslim speakers.

I'd very much like to think this would be a British march - i.e. ALL britons, regardless of race colour or creed, united against the extremists. Maybe I'm being naive, but I hope not.

 
pork&beef eagle Flag leighton buzzard 15 Jul 05 2.41pm

As a british asian i would go on this march to show them w**kers we will not be defeated,plus to make a statement to those who are giveing British asians a hard time at the moment that we will not be defeated as well

Quote npn at 15 Jul 2005 2:29pm

Quote johnno42000 at 15 Jul 2005 2:23pm


This link is to do with a march that is being planned to celebrate being British and to try and stop some of the more extreme Muslim speakers.

I'd very much like to think this would be a British march - i.e. ALL britons, regardless of race colour or creed, united against the extremists. Maybe I'm being naive, but I hope not.


 

Baby did you just fart?" Cause you just blew me away"

MKEM Number #3
tome Flag Inner Tantalus Time. 15 Jul 05 2.55pm

Right. I have been following this sporadically from afar, and it's all rather descended into handbags at five paces.

First up, all of us have emotions, and conveying them on a message board is not always the most accurate representation of our anger.

It seems to me that, in particular, reborn, Petealiator and halfmanhalfslug are angry. No s*** sherlock, you say. But their anger rather denudes their points, to the extent they become locked in an abusive battle with each other. Their anger, it appears to me, is originally driven by the same forces. Anger at what happened last thursday. Anger at the death and mindless destruction. Utterly understandable. However, we have seen that anger overwhelm their points to such a degree that they become indiscernable from the perspective they are trying to represent.

When it comes to the crunch of their viewpoints, their stuff about the whole concept of 'Britishness', 'race' and 'culture' come to the fore.

Ignorance still rules in these cases if you ask me. Integration is clearly necessary - from both positions. However, the immigration has been linked to race as a perception of difference by many of you - see Cucking's reference to 'Oldhamabad'.

The perception is a touching stone for racism. This is simply because if you judge someone by the generalisation of 'immigrant' as result of a different complexion, you are judging them on the colour of their skin. That basis is one from which racism stems - the whole process of generalisation of individuals is wrong, whichever way it manifests itself.

The idea that people with different complexions represent an 'alien culture' as opined by Penge Eagle, is a preposterous idea. It is one step further than the generalisation above and one step closer to condemnation. What is this 'alienness' which you warble on about?

What aspects of our 'cultures' are incompatible?

Hence the need for relative definitions of things such as 'race' and 'culture', which Petealiator got all huffy about. The first I've argued is a misnomer anyway, and the second is subject to so many interpretations it borders on the meaningless. Defining culture is like defining art, it is in the eye of the beholder, the one who feels a sense of belonging on the basis of certain factors which they feel are central to them.

Now, one thing we all have in common is Crystal Palace, so let's remember that.

I've run out of steam.

But if everybody went around judging individuals for who they are rather than some ridiculous idea of what group they are perceived to represent, then the world would be in a much healthier state.

I believe we are all global citizens first, national identies after.

 

A one and a two...

tome Flag Inner Tantalus Time. 15 Jul 05 3.24pm

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose

As suggested by Moose, we continue with the last post while the other's in cold storage.

Mine...

Right. I have been following this sporadically from afar, and it's all rather descended into handbags at five paces.

First up, all of us have emotions, and conveying them on a message board is not always the most accurate representation of our anger.

It seems to me that, in particular, reborn, Petealiator and halfmanhalfslug are angry. No s*** sherlock, you say. But their anger rather denudes their points, to the extent they become locked in an abusive battle with each other. Their anger, it appears to me, is originally driven by the same forces. Anger at what happened last thursday. Anger at the death and mindless destruction. Utterly understandable. However, we have seen that anger overwhelm their points to such a degree that they become indiscernable from the perspective they are trying to represent.

When it comes to the crunch of their viewpoints, their stuff about the whole concept of 'Britishness', 'race' and 'culture' come to the fore.

Ignorance still rules in these cases if you ask me. Integration is clearly necessary - from both positions. However, the immigration has been linked to race as a perception of difference by many of you - see Cucking's reference to 'Oldhamabad'.

The perception is a touching stone for racism. This is simply because if you judge someone by the generalisation of 'immigrant' as result of a different complexion, you are judging them on the colour of their skin. That basis is one from which racism stems - the whole process of generalisation of individuals is wrong, whichever way it manifests itself.

The idea that people with different complexions represent an 'alien culture' as opined by Penge Eagle, is a preposterous idea. It is one step further than the generalisation above and one step closer to condemnation. What is this 'alienness' which you warble on about?

What aspects of our 'cultures' are incompatible?

Hence the need for relative definitions of things such as 'race' and 'culture', which Petealiator got all huffy about. The first I've argued is a misnomer anyway, and the second is subject to so many interpretations it borders on the meaningless. Defining culture is like defining art, it is in the eye of the beholder, the one who feels a sense of belonging on the basis of certain factors which they feel are central to them.

Now, one thing we all have in common is Crystal Palace, so let's remember that.

I've run out of steam.

But if everybody went around judging individuals for who they are rather than some ridiculous idea of what group they are perceived to represent, then the world would be in a much healthier state.

I believe we are all global citizens first, national identies after.

 

A one and a two...

Oliver Flag Bodega Bay 15 Jul 05 3.35pm

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose

In reply to NickinOX. cannot be bothered with Petealiator & Reborn do not want the threats of violence why the mods allow I do not know probably the same clique.

Never been a great fan of Galloway a bit too left for me and he does have a massive ego but since his performance in the US Senate, he has gone up in my estimation. My favourite quote being "I have met Saddam Hussein exactly the same number of times as Donald Rumsfeld met him. The difference is that Donald Rumsfeld met him to sell him guns and to give him maps the better to target those guns.”

In my opinion, George Galloway is right. Of course, Iraq is a factor in the bombings. It is no coincidence that the UK and Spain the two biggest supporters of the war in the EU have been targeted.

Although the election vote in Bethnal Green was close, he took a safe Labour seat. He polled 15,801 votes, giving him a majority of 823 over King, overturning her previous majority of 10,000. You originally posted that “He also ran an incredibly racist campaign, which included multiple death threats and attacks on opponents.” I think you will find that is was Galloway that received the death threats and was not the one giving them out. He received the death threats from Islamic extremists! He won the election in which there was accusations on both sides on the back of the large number of Muslim voters in the constituency voting against the war in Iraq.

You state that “The Palestinians receive millions of US dollars and also European money”. Israel is the world's largest recipient of American aid, receiving an estimated $3bn annually. Israel is asking Washington for $2.2bn in additional aid to help fund its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and four small West Bank settlements. The US has pledged $350m to the Palestinians, some of which is to be spent on housing and infrastructure in the Gaza Strip.

The big question is what is the main motivator for these extremists who carry out these despicable attacks. Could it be US foreign policy (and those who follow it) who to them are seem to be anti Islamic?

 

I have prepared one of my own time capsules. I have placed some rather large samples of dynamite, gunpowder and nitroglycerin. My time capsule is set to go off in the year 3000. It will show them what we are really like.
NickinOX Flag Sailing country. 15 Jul 05 4.17pm

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose

Quote Oliver at 15 Jul 2005 3:35pm
In reply to NickinOX. cannot be bothered with Petealiator & Reborn do not want the threats of violence why the mods allow I do not know probably the same clique.

Why the snide comment. HMHS got his threats, abuse and rants in as well as Reborn and Petealiator! I hardly think that this was a clique thing, especially as the main moderator is on holiday.

Quote
Never been a great fan of Galloway a bit too left for me and he does have a massive ego but since his performance in the US Senate, he has gone up in my estimation. My favourite quote being "I have met Saddam Hussein exactly the same number of times as Donald Rumsfeld met him. The difference is that Donald Rumsfeld met him to sell him guns and to give him maps the better to target those guns.”

Another lie by Galloway. Rumsfeld did not sell Saddam guns: he sold him botulism serum, anthrax serum and the like. However, because that does not trip off the tongue very easily Galloway went for the untruth and the flashy quip.

Furthermore, he did not answer the crucial question posed to him by a left wing Democrat. Did he know if his Iraqi business friends had benefitted from the "oil for food" programme. He was asked the same question several times and absolutely refused to answer. He was all flash and no substance.

Quote
In my opinion, George Galloway is right. Of course, Iraq is a factor in the bombings. It is no coincidence that the UK and Spain the two biggest supporters of the war in the EU have been targeted.

I have never claimed it was not. I have stated that it was not the main reason. You must remember that America, France, Spain, Britain, Germany, Holland, along with many other countries, all had their civilians targetted and killed way before Iraq, and even before 9/11. Check out the BBC list of attacks, most of them are not even against us or America.

Quote
Although the election vote in Bethnal Green was close, he took a safe Labour seat. He polled 15,801 votes, giving him a majority of 823 over King, overturning her previous majority of 10,000. You originally posted that “He also ran an incredibly racist campaign, which included multiple death threats and attacks on opponents.” I think you will find that is was Galloway that received the death threats and was not the one giving them out. He received the death threats from Islamic extremists! He won the election in which there was accusations on both sides on the back of the large number of Muslim voters in the constituency voting against the war in Iraq.

Exactly as I stated, that does not constitute a landslide victory as was claimed in the post I was responding to. According to the BBC, most of the death threats and attacks were aimed at people not supporting Galloway, and some reports indicated that there was no evidence he had even been threatened. That unfortunatley sounds par for the course for him. N.B. I changed the original text of my post when I double checked what I had written. Thus I stand by what I wrote, that both sides were guilty of racism and intimidation.

Quote
You state that “The Palestinians receive millions of US dollars and also European money”. Israel is the world's largest recipient of American aid, receiving an estimated bn annually. Israel is asking Washington for .2bn in additional aid to help fund its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and four small West Bank settlements. The US has pledged 0m to the Palestinians, some of which is to be spent on housing and infrastructure in the Gaza Strip.

First, you still have not explained what happened to the hundreds of millions of euros and dollars that vanished after being provided to the Palestinians to improve their lot.

Bush has offered 350 million USD to the Palestinian authorities, not 0 dollars as you claim. He and Blair (with the support of others) pushed through an aid package at the G8 for a further 3 billion USD in aid to come from that group. Furthermore, Israel is not the largest receiver of American largesse, it is Iraq. Israel receives 3bn USD not a bn as you claimed. If you are going to use statistics get them correct. In a deal worked out with the Arab neighbours of Israel (Egypt, Jordan Lebanon) receive over 3bn USD. Basically, to preserve peace between the main protagonists. Thus Israel's immediate neighbours receive more money than Israel in fact. With the additional aid pledge from the G8, the Arab nations around Israel wil together receive vastly more aid than Israel.

Quote
The big question is what is the main motivator for these extremists who carry out these despicable attacks. Could it be US foreign policy (and those who follow it) who to them are seem to be anti Islamic?

So, all those western and other countries that got involed in Bosnia (to save muslims), Kosovo (to save muslims), Afghanistan where muslim extremists had driven millions into exile (most of whom have now returned according to a number of aid agencies)(as reported in the news media), etc. are anti-islamic. What a ridiculous sweeping statement.

I attended a series of lectures about two years ago on the Islamic world. What a number of the Islamic speakers noted, was that it is easier to practice Islam in the west than it is in many so-called islamic countries. They have freedom of expression and religion in the west. In many islamic countries these freedoms do not exist, indeed for many they were persecuted for holding beliefs that come from outside the mainstream of the particular nation. Thus, they argued the west is not anti-islamic if anything it is a great supporter of islam. Despite what rabble-rousers like Galloway try to pretend.

One last point about Galloway. When I worked as a shop-steward for years, we had a phrase for people like him. "No one is more dogmatic than a wealthy socialist."

 
Oliver Flag Bodega Bay 15 Jul 05 5.08pm

This post has been merged from a topic called 'London Blasts Aftermath...' by Moose

Quote NickinOX at 15 Jul 2005 4:17pm

Quote Oliver at 15 Jul 2005 3:35pm
In reply to NickinOX. cannot be bothered with Petealiator & Reborn do not want the threats of violence why the mods allow I do not know probably the same clique.

Why the snide comment. HMHS got his threats, abuse and rants in as well as Reborn and Petealiator! I hardly think that this was a clique thing, especially as the main moderator is on holiday.

Quote
Never been a great fan of Galloway a bit too left for me and he does have a massive ego but since his performance in the US Senate, he has gone up in my estimation. My favourite quote being "I have met Saddam Hussein exactly the same number of times as Donald Rumsfeld met him. The difference is that Donald Rumsfeld met him to sell him guns and to give him maps the better to target those guns.”

Another lie by Galloway. Rumsfeld did not sell Saddam guns: he sold him botulism serum, anthrax serum and the like. However, because that does not trip off the tongue very easily Galloway went for the untruth and the flashy quip.

Furthermore, he did not answer the crucial question posed to him by a left wing Democrat. Did he know if his Iraqi business friends had benefitted from the "oil for food" programme. He was asked the same question several times and absolutely refused to answer. He was all flash and no substance.

Quote
In my opinion, George Galloway is right. Of course, Iraq is a factor in the bombings. It is no coincidence that the UK and Spain the two biggest supporters of the war in the EU have been targeted.

I have never claimed it was not. I have stated that it was not the main reason. You must remember that America, France, Spain, Britain, Germany, Holland, along with many other countries, all had their civilians targetted and killed way before Iraq, and even before 9/11. Check out the BBC list of attacks, most of them are not even against us or America.

Quote
Although the election vote in Bethnal Green was close, he took a safe Labour seat. He polled 15,801 votes, giving him a majority of 823 over King, overturning her previous majority of 10,000. You originally posted that “He also ran an incredibly racist campaign, which included multiple death threats and attacks on opponents.” I think you will find that is was Galloway that received the death threats and was not the one giving them out. He received the death threats from Islamic extremists! He won the election in which there was accusations on both sides on the back of the large number of Muslim voters in the constituency voting against the war in Iraq.

Exactly as I stated, that does not constitute a landslide victory as was claimed in the post I was responding to. According to the BBC, most of the death threats and attacks were aimed at people not supporting Galloway, and some reports indicated that there was no evidence he had even been threatened. That unfortunatley sounds par for the course for him. N.B. I changed the original text of my post when I double checked what I had written. Thus I stand by what I wrote, that both sides were guilty of racism and intimidation.

Quote
You state that “The Palestinians receive millions of US dollars and also European money”. Israel is the world's largest recipient of American aid, receiving an estimated bn annually. Israel is asking Washington for .2bn in additional aid to help fund its withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and four small West Bank settlements. The US has pledged 0m to the Palestinians, some of which is to be spent on housing and infrastructure in the Gaza Strip.

First, you still have not explained what happened to the hundreds of millions of euros and dollars that vanished after being provided to the Palestinians to improve their lot.

Bush has offered 350 million USD to the Palestinian authorities, not 0 dollars as you claim. He and Blair (with the support of others) pushed through an aid package at the G8 for a further 3 billion USD in aid to come from that group. Furthermore, Israel is not the largest receiver of American largesse, it is Iraq. Israel receives 3bn USD not a bn as you claimed. If you are going to use statistics get them correct. In a deal worked out with the Arab neighbours of Israel (Egypt, Jordan Lebanon) receive over 3bn USD. Basically, to preserve peace between the main protagonists. Thus Israel's immediate neighbours receive more money than Israel in fact. With the additional aid pledge from the G8, the Arab nations around Israel wil together receive vastly more aid than Israel.

Quote
The big question is what is the main motivator for these extremists who carry out these despicable attacks. Could it be US foreign policy (and those who follow it) who to them are seem to be anti Islamic?

So, all those western and other countries that got involed in Bosnia (to save muslims), Kosovo (to save muslims), Afghanistan where muslim extremists had driven millions into exile (most of whom have now returned according to a number of aid agencies)(as reported in the news media), etc. are anti-islamic. What a ridiculous sweeping statement.

I attended a series of lectures about two years ago on the Islamic world. What a number of the Islamic speakers noted, was that it is easier to practice Islam in the west than it is in many so-called islamic countries. They have freedom of expression and religion in the west. In many islamic countries these freedoms do not exist, indeed for many they were persecuted for holding beliefs that come from outside the mainstream of the particular nation. Thus, they argued the west is not anti-islamic if anything it is a great supporter of islam. Despite what rabble-rousers like Galloway try to pretend.

One last point about Galloway. When I worked as a shop-steward for years, we had a phrase for people like him. "No one is more dogmatic than a wealthy socialist."

- Face it Galloway is innocent of the charges laid before him by the US Senate Committee. Why would he know if his “Iraqi business friends” had benefited from the oil for food programme?

- The war in Iraq increased the likelihood of UK being attacked.

- Massive swing in the vote form a very safe Labour seat to the anti war party. The death threats where handed out by an extremist Islamic group opposed to democratic process and as such all candidates got them.

- You are wrong re aid. Israel is the largest recipient and most of the aid is military.
Check these websites
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- So what do you think is their main motivation?

Edited by Oliver (15 Jul 2005 5:09pm)

 

I have prepared one of my own time capsules. I have placed some rather large samples of dynamite, gunpowder and nitroglycerin. My time capsule is set to go off in the year 3000. It will show them what we are really like.
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