The left and Jewish people

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The left and Jewish people

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legaleagle 11 Apr 16 1.15pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I never said that "just the odd one or two" Jews opposed Israeli policy. It just suited your argument to suggest that. In the end, Israel is all about Jewish belief and exists for that reason only. Does that mean all Jews think the same? Of course not. But is it not a sad irony that the oppression of Jews has lead directly to the oppression of Palestinians by the offspring of those same Jews? No doubt you would rather deal in semantics that acknowledge that. Your own words: "Do you know any Jews who condemn Israeli policy? There are dissenters..." I suspect I would not be the only one to view your words as referring to Jews in general bar the odd dissenter. Your inability to not regard Jews as a monolithic bloc cause you to post: (Jews)"have systematically tried to wipe out a people to further their own ambitions". It is indeed a horrible irony that the right wing in Israel has acted as it has,though to compare the situation to the holocaust would be obscene.The causes of,mutation of, and effects of zionism in Israel/Palestine are somewhat less simplistic than ascribing them simply to the holocaust,though it is far from irrelevant. But that irony is not (and getting back to the origins of the thread) an excuse to trot out hoary old canards about Jews under the guise of "legitimate" criticism of Israel. Anyone who has been on here a while will know I have been a strong critic of the actions of the Israeli government in Gaza and the occupied territories. Edited by legaleagle (11 Apr 2016 1.26pm)
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legaleagle

11 Apr 16 1.15pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I never said that "just the odd one or two" Jews opposed Israeli policy. It just suited your argument to suggest that.
In the end, Israel is all about Jewish belief and exists for that reason only. Does that mean all Jews think the same? Of course not. But is it not a sad irony that the oppression of Jews has lead directly to the oppression of Palestinians by the offspring of those same Jews?
No doubt you would rather deal in semantics that acknowledge that.

Your own words:

"Do you know any Jews who condemn Israeli policy? There are dissenters..."

I suspect I would not be the only one to view your words as referring to Jews in general bar the odd dissenter.

Your inability to not regard Jews as a monolithic bloc cause you to post:

(Jews)"have systematically tried to wipe out a people to further their own ambitions".

It is indeed a horrible irony that the right wing in Israel has acted as it has,though to compare the situation to the holocaust would be obscene.The causes of,mutation of, and effects of zionism in Israel/Palestine are somewhat less simplistic than ascribing them simply to the holocaust,though it is far from irrelevant.

But that irony is not (and getting back to the origins of the thread) an excuse to trot out hoary old canards about Jews under the guise of "legitimate" criticism of Israel.

Anyone who has been on here a while will know I have been a strong critic of the actions of the Israeli government in Gaza and the occupied territories.

Edited by legaleagle (11 Apr 2016 1.26pm)

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Hrolf The Ganger 11 Apr 16 1.26pm
Originally posted by legaleagle Your own words: "Do you know any Jews who condemn Israeli policy? There are dissenters..." That was a question and directed toward Jamie where I acknowledged that not all Jews feel the same way. He obviously feels justified in making his statement. He is usually considered and informed and has a fairly balanced view.
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Hrolf The Ganger

11 Apr 16 1.26pm

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Originally posted by legaleagle

Your own words:

"Do you know any Jews who condemn Israeli policy? There are dissenters..."

That was a question and directed toward Jamie where I acknowledged that not all Jews feel the same way.

He obviously feels justified in making his statement. He is usually considered and informed and has a fairly balanced view.

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Hrolf The Ganger 11 Apr 16 1.31pm
Originally posted by legaleagle Your own words: "Do you know any Jews who condemn Israeli policy? There are dissenters..." I suspect I would not be the only one to view your words as referring to Jews in general bar the odd dissenter. Your inability to not regard Jews as a monolithic bloc cause you to post: (Jews)"have systematically tried to wipe out a people to further their own ambitions". It is indeed a horrible irony that the right wing in Israel has acted as it has,though to compare the situation to the holocaust would be obscene.The causes of,mutation of, and effects of zionism in Israel/Palestine are somewhat less simplistic than ascribing them simply to the holocaust,though it is far from irrelevant. But that irony is not (and getting back to the origins of the thread) an excuse to trot out hoary old canards about Jews under the guise of "legitimate" criticism of Israel. Anyone who has been on hear a while will know I have been a strong critic of the actions of the Israeli government in Gaza and the occupied territories. Edited by legaleagle (11 Apr 2016 1.26pm) Perhaps in detail and scale but it is about the principles as you well know. It is good to hear you condemn the treatment of Palestinians for the first time though. Well done. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (11 Apr 2016 1.33pm)
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Hrolf The Ganger

11 Apr 16 1.31pm

Originally posted by legaleagle

Your own words:

"Do you know any Jews who condemn Israeli policy? There are dissenters..."

I suspect I would not be the only one to view your words as referring to Jews in general bar the odd dissenter.

Your inability to not regard Jews as a monolithic bloc cause you to post:

(Jews)"have systematically tried to wipe out a people to further their own ambitions".

It is indeed a horrible irony that the right wing in Israel has acted as it has,though to compare the situation to the holocaust would be obscene.The causes of,mutation of, and effects of zionism in Israel/Palestine are somewhat less simplistic than ascribing them simply to the holocaust,though it is far from irrelevant.

But that irony is not (and getting back to the origins of the thread) an excuse to trot out hoary old canards about Jews under the guise of "legitimate" criticism of Israel.

Anyone who has been on hear a while will know I have been a strong critic of the actions of the Israeli government in Gaza and the occupied territories.

Edited by legaleagle (11 Apr 2016 1.26pm)

Perhaps in detail and scale but it is about the principles as you well know.

It is good to hear you condemn the treatment of Palestinians for the first time though. Well done.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (11 Apr 2016 1.33pm)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 11 Apr 16 2.14pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger In the same way that Germans were not the same as Nazis? For a starter, yes. Not every German was a member of the Nazi Party or supporter. Something like 75,000 Germans were executed for resistance activities against the state during the war. Not everyone who is Jewish, is automatically aligned to Israeli, or the policy of its ruling government (in fact arguably not all Isaraeli's support Israeli policy towards Palestine either). Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger In ideological terms you are right of course but in practice we still bombed German cities because they were under the control of Nazis. Israel was created solely for Jews in line with Jewish tradition and is run by Jews. True, but Israel doesn't speak for all Jews. Only those in Israel, and even then... The problem for me, that alienates groups like Hamas, is that they're indiscriminate in their targeting, rather than directive against the tools of occupation and oppression (the illegal settlements, Israeli state infrastructure, military, police, courts, politicians etc). Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Do you know any Jews who condemn Israeli policy? There are dissenters but the bulk of Jewish opinion which carries much weight in the US media supports Israel. Personally I have no particular love or dislike for either party but the irony of the Jewish occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, that they claim in the name of the semi mythical, Biblical land of Israel, is unavoidable. Well for a start Noam Chomsky is Jewish and is quite outspoken on Israeli Policy. But a quick scout around the web demonstrates that they exist (even among Israeli Jews). I think its just a lazy tradition in reporting towards a selective bias to 'blur the distance', and ultimately it leads to a situation where in a lot of people just regard Palestinian with Terrorism and Jew with the nation of Israeli. Certainly on both sides that seem to have been exploited to justify soft targets and unacceptable focuses on civilian casualties. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 11 Apr 16 2.14pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

In the same way that Germans were not the same as Nazis?

For a starter, yes. Not every German was a member of the Nazi Party or supporter. Something like 75,000 Germans were executed for resistance activities against the state during the war.

Not everyone who is Jewish, is automatically aligned to Israeli, or the policy of its ruling government (in fact arguably not all Isaraeli's support Israeli policy towards Palestine either).

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

In ideological terms you are right of course but in practice we still bombed German cities because they were under the control of Nazis. Israel was created solely for Jews in line with Jewish tradition and is run by Jews.

True, but Israel doesn't speak for all Jews. Only those in Israel, and even then... The problem for me, that alienates groups like Hamas, is that they're indiscriminate in their targeting, rather than directive against the tools of occupation and oppression (the illegal settlements, Israeli state infrastructure, military, police, courts, politicians etc).

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Do you know any Jews who condemn Israeli policy? There are dissenters but the bulk of Jewish opinion which carries much weight in the US media supports Israel.
Personally I have no particular love or dislike for either party but the irony of the Jewish occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, that they claim in the name of the semi mythical, Biblical land of Israel, is unavoidable.

Well for a start Noam Chomsky is Jewish and is quite outspoken on Israeli Policy. But a quick scout around the web demonstrates that they exist (even among Israeli Jews).

I think its just a lazy tradition in reporting towards a selective bias to 'blur the distance', and ultimately it leads to a situation where in a lot of people just regard Palestinian with Terrorism and Jew with the nation of Israeli. Certainly on both sides that seem to have been exploited to justify soft targets and unacceptable focuses on civilian casualties.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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the_mcanuff_stuff Caterham 11 Apr 16 3.27pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 For a starter, yes. Not every German was a member of the Nazi Party or supporter. Something like 75,000 Germans were executed for resistance activities against the state during the war.casualties. Indeed. In fact they didn't get a majority. They had a short lived, flimsy coalition, before von Hindenburg caved and handed power to Hitler.
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the_mcanuff_stuff

Caterham 11 Apr 16 3.27pm

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Originally posted by jamiemartin721

For a starter, yes. Not every German was a member of the Nazi Party or supporter. Something like 75,000 Germans were executed for resistance activities against the state during the war.casualties.

Indeed. In fact they didn't get a majority. They had a short lived, flimsy coalition, before von Hindenburg caved and handed power to Hitler.

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Hrolf The Ganger 11 Apr 16 3.30pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Well for a start Noam Chomsky is Jewish and is quite outspoken on Israeli Policy. But a quick scout around the web demonstrates that they exist (even among Israeli Jews). I think its just a lazy tradition in reporting towards a selective bias to 'blur the distance', and ultimately it leads to a situation where in a lot of people just regard Palestinian with Terrorism and Jew with the nation of Israeli. Certainly on both sides that seem to have been exploited to justify soft targets and unacceptable focuses on civilian casualties. All you say is reasonable but it can't be ignored that Israel exists today because of Jewish doctrine. One cannot blame all Jews in the same way one cannot blame all Germans or Muslims for atrocities but the fact remains that the Jewish faith and it's desire to return to the promised land is directly linked to the current situation. Religion has driven the process aided enthusiastically by state rulers trying to secure their power base. In the end everyone is in it foe themselves.
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Hrolf The Ganger

11 Apr 16 3.30pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Well for a start Noam Chomsky is Jewish and is quite outspoken on Israeli Policy. But a quick scout around the web demonstrates that they exist (even among Israeli Jews).

All you say is reasonable but it can't be ignored that Israel exists today because of Jewish doctrine. One cannot blame all Jews in the same way one cannot blame all Germans or Muslims for atrocities but the fact remains that the Jewish faith and it's desire to return to the promised land is directly linked to the current situation.
Religion has driven the process aided enthusiastically by state rulers trying to secure their power base.
In the end everyone is in it foe themselves.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 11 Apr 16 3.45pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger All you say is reasonable but it can't be ignored that Israel exists today because of Jewish doctrine. One cannot blame all Jews in the same way one cannot blame all Germans or Muslims for atrocities but the fact remains that the Jewish faith and it's desire to return to the promised land is directly linked to the current situation. Religion has driven the process aided enthusiastically by state rulers trying to secure their power base. In the end everyone is in it foe themselves. Very true, but then the religion and peoples were also from that area, who wrote those doctrines. At least initially. The disappointing part maybe, is that its not that much cop as a promised land either, excepting the costal areas, its basically pretty unimpressive scrub land bordering on deserts and hills. Doesn't even have much of note in the oil department. Bit disappointing, if you ask me, a deity that can provide a promised land that is rich in resources, highly fertile etc, especially given the president set with the Garden of Eden. Especially when you consider all those Arab countries which have more oil reserves than water, and can afford to just import everything else. From the old testament, its clear that the Jews and God have something of a love-hate on and then off again relationship. Also, the formation of Israel was really a Zionist movement thing, largely on the back of the fact that these factions had largely driven Jewish partisan movements in WWII and still had a 's**t load of guns' - I think a lot of the other Jewish factions and sects really got into the idea when it appeared that the they might actually succeed in obtaining it from the British. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 11 Apr 16 3.45pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

All you say is reasonable but it can't be ignored that Israel exists today because of Jewish doctrine. One cannot blame all Jews in the same way one cannot blame all Germans or Muslims for atrocities but the fact remains that the Jewish faith and it's desire to return to the promised land is directly linked to the current situation.
Religion has driven the process aided enthusiastically by state rulers trying to secure their power base.
In the end everyone is in it foe themselves.

Very true, but then the religion and peoples were also from that area, who wrote those doctrines. At least initially.

The disappointing part maybe, is that its not that much cop as a promised land either, excepting the costal areas, its basically pretty unimpressive scrub land bordering on deserts and hills. Doesn't even have much of note in the oil department.

Bit disappointing, if you ask me, a deity that can provide a promised land that is rich in resources, highly fertile etc, especially given the president set with the Garden of Eden.

Especially when you consider all those Arab countries which have more oil reserves than water, and can afford to just import everything else. From the old testament, its clear that the Jews and God have something of a love-hate on and then off again relationship.

Also, the formation of Israel was really a Zionist movement thing, largely on the back of the fact that these factions had largely driven Jewish partisan movements in WWII and still had a 's**t load of guns' - I think a lot of the other Jewish factions and sects really got into the idea when it appeared that the they might actually succeed in obtaining it from the British.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Hrolf The Ganger 11 Apr 16 5.46pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Very true, but then the religion and peoples were also from that area, who wrote those doctrines. At least initially. The disappointing part maybe, is that its not that much cop as a promised land either, excepting the costal areas, its basically pretty unimpressive scrub land bordering on deserts and hills. Doesn't even have much of note in the oil department. Bit disappointing, if you ask me, a deity that can provide a promised land that is rich in resources, highly fertile etc, especially given the president set with the Garden of Eden. Especially when you consider all those Arab countries which have more oil reserves than water, and can afford to just import everything else. From the old testament, its clear that the Jews and God have something of a love-hate on and then off again relationship. Also, the formation of Israel was really a Zionist movement thing, largely on the back of the fact that these factions had largely driven Jewish partisan movements in WWII and still had a 's**t load of guns' - I think a lot of the other Jewish factions and sects really got into the idea when it appeared that the they might actually succeed in obtaining it from the British. Probably what you deserve when you believe that the key to your destiny lies in the pages of an old book of fairytales and idealised history.
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Hrolf The Ganger

11 Apr 16 5.46pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Very true, but then the religion and peoples were also from that area, who wrote those doctrines. At least initially.

Bit disappointing, if you ask me, a deity that can provide a promised land that is rich in resources, highly fertile etc, especially given the president set with the Garden of Eden.

Probably what you deserve when you believe that the key to your destiny lies in the pages of an old book of fairytales and idealised history.

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johnfirewall 11 Apr 16 6.06pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Probably what you deserve when you believe that the key to your destiny lies in the pages of an old book of fairytales and idealised history. Immigrants during the contentious periods of the 20th century worked to make something of swamp and desert. The old book proved the key to their very survival. Do you begrudge them that because they've continued to take land?
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johnfirewall

11 Apr 16 6.06pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Probably what you deserve when you believe that the key to your destiny lies in the pages of an old book of fairytales and idealised history.

Immigrants during the contentious periods of the 20th century worked to make something of swamp and desert. The old book proved the key to their very survival. Do you begrudge them that because they've continued to take land?

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Kermit8 Hevon 11 Apr 16 6.11pm
Originally posted by johnfirewall Immigrants during the contentious periods of the 20th century worked to make something of swamp and desert. The old book proved the key to their very survival. Do you begrudge them that because they've continued to take land? Steal land not 'take'. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 11 Apr 16 6.11pm

Originally posted by johnfirewall

Steal land not 'take'.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Hrolf The Ganger 11 Apr 16 8.39pm
Originally posted by johnfirewall Immigrants during the contentious periods of the 20th century worked to make something of swamp and desert. The old book proved the key to their very survival. Do you begrudge them that because they've continued to take land? I certainly don't begrudge them land but I do believe that the choice of land was based on folklore and an unwise choice considering it's proximity to Arab homelands. The real problem is that they have displaced the existing population. Some might say that the Palestinians did nothing with the land and therefore didn't deserve to keep it but that is not really an excuse for forced eviction. Of course we Brits can't claim the moral high ground on that sort of thing but that doesn't excuse it. Unfortunately the world does not run on principle but more the dog eat dog approach.
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Hrolf The Ganger

11 Apr 16 8.39pm

Originally posted by johnfirewall

I certainly don't begrudge them land but I do believe that the choice of land was based on folklore and an unwise choice considering it's proximity to Arab homelands. The real problem is that they have displaced the existing population.
Some might say that the Palestinians did nothing with the land and therefore didn't deserve to keep it but that is not really an excuse for forced eviction.

Of course we Brits can't claim the moral high ground on that sort of thing but that doesn't excuse it.
Unfortunately the world does not run on principle but more the dog eat dog approach.

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legaleagle 11 Apr 16 9.32pm
Again..."they" have taken the land/..."they" have stolen the land..."they" have displaced the population... "They" are not one big group acting and thinking only collectively to whom all actions you don't like are to be collectively attributed.Same old hoary old canards and thought processes....sigh... Of course the Palestinians have been royally shat upon.But,funny how no one here talks about the 1m or so Jews displaced from Arab countries (having lived there for hundreds of years) having their property and land stolen, and the very much closer to home ongoing scandal of the wholesale theft of property (estimated only 20% ever recovered to date) from Jews in Europe by good old christian "civilisation" within living memory. But, of course,its somehow different when it comes to stereotyping "them",no?And the right to self-determination is for everyone but "them" (and Kurds).... Granted,the old and new testaments may be fairy tales.But,"they" were no more demented in going to where "their" religion had told them for 2,000 years "they" would one day return to (given "they" were clearly being told "they" weren't welcome where "they" were),than the majority of Brits were demented for proclaiming the virtues of imperialism and christian (ie based on the "fairy tale" bible) civilisation during the same period ...and don't forget why "they" went in the first place ....so if we are looking for the real key causal factor for this horrible present day nightmare and tragedy... If a kid is violently abused ,it may well as a result grow up to be a completely screwed up abuser itself,as has tragically happened here...But,of course,in this instance the "parents" disclaim their responsibility a lot of the time and certainly wouldn't appreciate being categorised collectively as "the parents" for no more than being part of a common religion or ethnicity with the culprits... Edited by legaleagle (11 Apr 2016 10.00pm)
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legaleagle

11 Apr 16 9.32pm

Again..."they" have taken the land/..."they" have stolen the land..."they" have displaced the population...

"They" are not one big group acting and thinking only collectively to whom all actions you don't like are to be collectively attributed.Same old hoary old canards and thought processes....sigh...

Of course the Palestinians have been royally shat upon.But,funny how no one here talks about the 1m or so Jews displaced from Arab countries (having lived there for hundreds of years) having their property and land stolen, and the very much closer to home ongoing scandal of the wholesale theft of property (estimated only 20% ever recovered to date) from Jews in Europe by good old christian "civilisation" within living memory. But, of course,its somehow different when it comes to stereotyping "them",no?And the right to self-determination is for everyone but "them" (and Kurds)....

Granted,the old and new testaments may be fairy tales.But,"they" were no more demented in going to where "their" religion had told them for 2,000 years "they" would one day return to (given "they" were clearly being told "they" weren't welcome where "they" were),than the majority of Brits were demented for proclaiming the virtues of imperialism and christian (ie based on the "fairy tale" bible) civilisation during the same period ...and don't forget why "they" went in the first place ....so if we are looking for the real key causal factor for this horrible present day nightmare and tragedy...

If a kid is violently abused ,it may well as a result grow up to be a completely screwed up abuser itself,as has tragically happened here...But,of course,in this instance the "parents" disclaim their responsibility a lot of the time and certainly wouldn't appreciate being categorised collectively as "the parents" for no more than being part of a common religion or ethnicity with the culprits...

Edited by legaleagle (11 Apr 2016 10.00pm)

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