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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 Stirlingsays  27 Jun 17 5.39pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
Are you privy to something the rest of the UK population is not? You have evidence of the guaranteed future success of Brexit amidst all the pitfalls? Do tell. Well yeah...I share something with about half the population who voted leave....it's called common sense.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| steeleye20 Croydon 27 Jun 17 6.06pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Well yeah...I share something with about half the population who voted leave....it's called common sense. We would never accuse you of having common sense that is mutually exclusive with being a Palace fan...
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| Mstrobez 27 Jun 17 6.10pm |
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Originally posted by CambridgeEagle
I agree that there is no plan and the likely outcome will be very poor and the risk, given the Tories were in power, was not one worth taking, which is why I voted remain. Also the lies told by the Leave Campaign on financial and legal aspects of the EU was astounding and I was amazed so many people bought it. I don't think that the EU is necessary for the UK to be a successful economy which provides world leading education, public services, r&d etc. I would rather we stayed in but I do think, with the right economic policies and plan for Brexit it could be successful. I think the combo of Tories and Brexit will be a disaster though. This article I found quite compelling:
But doesn't it have to be better for it to be successful? The only arguments I've ever heard apart from the Nigel Farage unicorn type that have held any weight are the arguments why "we'll be ok in the end" or "well still be able to do some of the stuff remain say we can't" or crystal balling and almost wishing doom and collapse upon every member state of the EU. That's not what success means to me.
We're the Arthur over ere! |
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 Hrolf The Ganger 27 Jun 17 7.22pm |
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But we don't need pensions in your world. Everyone steps into the disintegrator at 65.
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| steeleye20 Croydon 27 Jun 17 7.26pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
But we don't need pensions in your world. Everyone steps into the disintegrator at 65.
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Kermit8  Hevon 27 Jun 17 7.52pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
Well yeah...I share something with about half the population who voted leave....it's called common sense. If Mr Bean were in charge for our negotiations you would still think we would come up smelling of roses. As I said earlier, you already have your victory, eh, Pyrrhus?
Big chest and massive boobs |
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| Stirlingsays 27 Jun 17 8.01pm |
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Originally posted by Kermit8
If Mr Bean were in charge for our negotiations you would still think we would come up smelling of roses. As I said earlier, you already have your victory, eh, Pyrrhus? If we had voted remain it would have eventually been a Roman Cannae.
'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen) |
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| davenotamonkey 27 Jun 17 9.12pm |
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Originally posted by Mstrobez
It's weird that no one mentioned this during the EU referendum isn't it? You lot said there would be none, none at all, zilch, we were on the road to prosperity and freedom. Doomsday? You've even yourself admitted that we're taking financial risks but once again haven't outlined the reason why. You yourself have shown in the last quarter, as our situation becomes more and more uncertain that we had less growth than Greece and guess what mate - we haven't even left yet! The argument you seem to hold is that we may well be OK in the end, which I've never doubted, but that as a reason to leave the EU is absolute insanity. Leavers seem to rush to argue that things are looking like we won't be completely doomed to support the argument of this ridiculous economic uncertainty. We clearly have a lessening control of affairs, sovereignty is a weightless argument and the country is poorer but hey we can get rid of those smelly faceless immigrants (none that you know of course) can't we so it'll all be worth it in the end. People like me should stop talking down the country. Jesus. It's weird you were too busy foaming at the mouth during the referendum to actually pay attention to the arguments put forward by those you disagree with. Just one example of many - Michael Gove, 19th June 2016: "Whether we vote to leave or remain there are risks to our future, there are challenges in the global economy," he said. "My view is that those challenges will be easier to meet, those risks will be less if we vote to leave because we will have control of the economic levers, we will have control over money we send to the European Union, we will have control over our own laws, and as a result we will be able to deal with whatever the world throws at us." Want some more? "There could, [Boris Johnson] admits, be a short-term hit to the economy but it would be “like the Nike tick” with “an initial period of dislocation and uncertainty … followed by very rapid improvement”." The Times, 27 February 2016, Any more? “Nobody can know for sure and there is no doubt there would be some uncertainty. But the fact is that most of the careful economic research says it could be plus to minus 1% as a best guess”. Andrea Leadsom, World at One, 26 February 2016 More? “Many people are making this decision purely based on the maths, of course. Will we be better off in our out? I am not blind to this issue and recognise that exit may come at a cost. Also, there will be practical problems to overcome such as negotiating new trade deals… all we differ about is whether the price of exit is worth paying. I believe that it is.” Kit Malthouse MP, [Link] How about some more? "Yes I do believe there’ll be a shock and I said the same about two years ago … but the reality is that even though there might be a temporary shock, the outcome for the UK economy with Brexit is very positive … there will be some sort of uncertainty impact … I can understand where the Treasury is coming from in some respects that there would be a shock". Gerard Lyons (Boris Johnson’s Chief Economic Adviser; Daily Politics, 23 May 2016) I could go on. Try again. No, in fact. Don't. You are utterly discredited. Just don't bother. You read (present tense and, it appears past tense) what you wanted to believe, to the extent that verifiable facts are irrelevant to you. Intellectually dishonest and stunted. As to your pathetic attempts to row back after "hur-de-hur - we're worse dan Greece, innit! Brex5hit, eh?!". You are a waste of time to discuss these issues with. The "reason why" - appears to be (as I just saw you claim) to "kick out the forriners" - right? That's all it is. That's why we voted. I have, endlessly detailed the "reasons why" I wanted us to leave the EU. If you weren't listening, I can't help you. Go back and look at this thread. I've laid it out ad-infintum. But I'm done re-debating the referendum. We won it, you didn't. So yeah, last quarter growth is down "and we haven't even left yet". The treasury was predicting ARMAGEDDON on the day we voted. The. Very. Day. Where is it? Oh, let's see. Perhaps their methodology was completely flawed and bogus, as confirmed via this report published a few days ago: I could dig out my own posts on this very thread about this exact point, made prior to the referendum, but I hate self-vindication.... ...oh, go on then: You spew unsubstantiated and factually incorrect crap on here, and I hope people see it for what it is. If only there were a filter such that we could all just ignore the low-information junk you post.
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| davenotamonkey 27 Jun 17 9.23pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
Actually it would not be a great surprise to me that brexit is not about the UK leaving the UK but the opposite. The EU is leaving the UK. Got space for one more on the boat? Don't stick around on our behalf.
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| Mstrobez 27 Jun 17 10.15pm |
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Originally posted by davenotamonkey
Jesus. It's weird you were too busy foaming at the mouth during the referendum to actually pay attention to the arguments put forward by those you disagree with. Just one example of many - Michael Gove, 19th June 2016: "Whether we vote to leave or remain there are risks to our future, there are challenges in the global economy," he said. "My view is that those challenges will be easier to meet, those risks will be less if we vote to leave because we will have control of the economic levers, we will have control over money we send to the European Union, we will have control over our own laws, and as a result we will be able to deal with whatever the world throws at us." Want some more? "There could, [Boris Johnson] admits, be a short-term hit to the economy but it would be “like the Nike tick” with “an initial period of dislocation and uncertainty … followed by very rapid improvement”." The Times, 27 February 2016, Any more? “Nobody can know for sure and there is no doubt there would be some uncertainty. But the fact is that most of the careful economic research says it could be plus to minus 1% as a best guess”. Andrea Leadsom, World at One, 26 February 2016 More? “Many people are making this decision purely based on the maths, of course. Will we be better off in our out? I am not blind to this issue and recognise that exit may come at a cost. Also, there will be practical problems to overcome such as negotiating new trade deals… all we differ about is whether the price of exit is worth paying. I believe that it is.” Kit Malthouse MP, [Link] How about some more? "Yes I do believe there’ll be a shock and I said the same about two years ago … but the reality is that even though there might be a temporary shock, the outcome for the UK economy with Brexit is very positive … there will be some sort of uncertainty impact … I can understand where the Treasury is coming from in some respects that there would be a shock". Gerard Lyons (Boris Johnson’s Chief Economic Adviser; Daily Politics, 23 May 2016) I could go on. Try again. No, in fact. Don't. You are utterly discredited. Just don't bother. You read (present tense and, it appears past tense) what you wanted to believe, to the extent that verifiable facts are irrelevant to you. Intellectually dishonest and stunted. As to your pathetic attempts to row back after "hur-de-hur - we're worse dan Greece, innit! Brex5hit, eh?!". You are a waste of time to discuss these issues with. The "reason why" - appears to be (as I just saw you claim) to "kick out the forriners" - right? That's all it is. That's why we voted. I have, endlessly detailed the "reasons why" I wanted us to leave the EU. If you weren't listening, I can't help you. Go back and look at this thread. I've laid it out ad-infintum. But I'm done re-debating the referendum. We won it, you didn't. So yeah, last quarter growth is down "and we haven't even left yet". The treasury was predicting ARMAGEDDON on the day we voted. The. Very. Day. Where is it? Oh, let's see. Perhaps their methodology was completely flawed and bogus, as confirmed via this report published a few days ago: I could dig out my own posts on this very thread about this exact point, made prior to the referendum, but I hate self-vindication.... ...oh, go on then: You spew unsubstantiated and factually incorrect crap on here, and I hope people see it for what it is. If only there were a filter such that we could all just ignore the low-information junk you post. What a strange conclusion to draw. I haven't read the rest of your posts and clearly you haven't read mine as I've clearly stared on a number of occasions I've changed my mind about Brexit more times than I can count but in the last month or so I've seen it for the absolute stupidity it is. As for spouting unsubstantiated and factually incorrect crap, that's all brexiteers do. It's all crystal balled "I know better than the experts" nonsense and all you want to do is shut down anyone who tries to warn less informed and impressionable people by getting all aggressive. The bottom of society, disillusioned by the political class and austerity, who in high numbers voted for brexit are gonna be the ones who feel the full force of what is quite clearly becoming economic suicide. We're gonna lead the world are we? Are you sure about that, with David Davis leading Brexit negotiations? There are more articulate, experienced people than I who've no doubt held up a mirror to you many times over the past year but you carry on putting your fingers in your ear, screaming down the "remoaners" and blindly pushing your meaningless rhetoric about, despite the fact the idiocy of this venture is becoming more and more blaitant by the day. I'm sorry I'm not prepared to make the country poorer for some silly anti political agenda, spouted from people who purposely manipulate the truth and exagerrate the role the EU plays in ordinary folks problems.
We're the Arthur over ere! |
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| davenotamonkey 27 Jun 17 10.36pm |
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Originally posted by Mstrobez
What a strange conclusion to draw. I haven't read the rest of your posts and clearly you haven't read mine as I've clearly stared on a number of occasions I've changed my mind about Brexit more times than I can count but in the last month or so I've seen it for the absolute stupidity it is. As for spouting unsubstantiated and factually incorrect crap, that's all brexiteers do. It's all crystal balled "I know better than the experts" nonsense and all you want to do is shut down anyone who tries to warn less informed and impressionable people by getting all aggressive. The bottom of society, disillusioned by the political class and austerity, who in high numbers voted for brexit are gonna be the ones who feel the full force of what is quite clearly becoming economic suicide. We're gonna lead the world are we? Are you sure about that, with David Davis leading Brexit negotiations? There are more articulate, experienced people than I who've no doubt held up a mirror to you many times over the past year but you carry on putting your fingers in your ear, screaming down the "remoaners" and blindly pushing your meaningless rhetoric about, despite the fact the idiocy of this venture is becoming more and more blaitant by the day. I'm sorry I'm not prepared to make the country poorer for some silly anti political agenda, spouted from people who purposely manipulate the truth and exagerrate the role the EU plays in ordinary folks problems. I don't know why I bother. I put you to bed twice today. There are so many holes in your diatribe (logical, factual, but sadly not in the form of actual paragraphed holes), I don't even know where to begin. So I won't. I'll leave it here. Your posts provide ample material for others to judge. Emboldened for the particular parts I'd take you apart on (and very easily at that). One things for sure: no, you won't be "prepared to make the country poorer", because thankfully, you'll be in no position to. And with neurons like yours, thank god for that.
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| Mstrobez 27 Jun 17 10.43pm |
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Originally posted by davenotamonkey
I don't know why I bother. I put you to bed twice today. There are so many holes in your diatribe (logical, factual, but sadly not in the form of actual paragraphed holes), I don't even know where to begin. So I won't. I'll leave it here. Your posts provide ample material for others to judge. Emboldened for the particular parts I'd take you apart on (and very easily at that). One things for sure: no, you won't be "prepared to make the country poorer", because thankfully, you'll be in no position to. And with neurons like yours, thank god for that. The irony is beyond belief.
We're the Arthur over ere! |
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| Mstrobez 27 Jun 17 10.48pm |
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Originally posted by We are goin up!
I voted Leave but there's absolutely no chance we'll know whether Brexit is a success or not until about 15 years' time. Nothing has actually changed yet, but both sides are jumping on any bit of good/bad news and showing it as PROOF that their side is right. It's bonkers, and also getting quite boring.
Yeah but personally I don't really fancy the idea of 15 years economic uncertainty in all honesty. I don't think many remainers claim to know it all, but voting on the premise of hoping in 15 years time things might be a bit better is pointless, especially when the evidence suggests the complete opposite, and it really does suggest that but we don't like experts anymore.
We're the Arthur over ere! |
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| davenotamonkey 27 Jun 17 11.03pm |
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Originally posted by Mstrobez
The irony is beyond belief. I've refuted both of your factually incorrect claims with: 1. Hard economic data Don't make me quote the OED definition of irony at you.
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| Mstrobez 27 Jun 17 11.13pm |
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Originally posted by davenotamonkey
I've refuted both of your factually incorrect claims with: 1. Hard economic data Don't make me quote the OED definition of irony at you. Give me the hard economic data that supports us being better off as a country once we end free trade with the largest economic block in the world. Please, I may of stumbled across the first person ever to be able to do this properly, the floors yours, provided you don't use crystal balls...
We're the Arthur over ere! |
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| nickgusset Shizzlehurst 27 Jun 17 11.43pm |
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Originally posted by davenotamonkey
I've refuted both of your factually incorrect claims with: 1. Hard economic data Don't make me quote the OED definition of irony at you. Are the referenced quotes you mention the ones from Boris et al you posted earlier? Forgive me if I take what that useless excuse for a parliamentarian says with a pinch of NaCl. If you are referring to a different quote, I apologise. I stand what I said about Boris though. For the record I want brexit to go well and accept that is the path we are following. I just wish someone with a bit of common (sense and decency) was leading us down it.
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| Mstrobez 28 Jun 17 12.47am |
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Originally posted by nickgusset
Are the referenced quotes you mention the ones from Boris et al you posted earlier? Forgive me if I take what that useless excuse for a parliamentarian says with a pinch of NaCl. If you are referring to a different quote, I apologise. I stand what I said about Boris though. For the record I want brexit to go well and accept that is the path we are following. I just wish someone with a bit of common (sense and decency) was leading us down it. The problem is sacrificing free trade with the EU for the sake of controlling our borders at all costs is not common sense at all, it's ridiculously stupid, hence there not being anyone credible who'd actually lead us down this route, that includes key figures amongst the leave campaign. I fell for the trick of being too ashamed to question the logic behind the confidence of leave voters in fear of being absuively shut down. It wasn't until I educated myself a bit more on both sides that I realised this whole venture is utterly ridiculous and is based around hope rather than facts.
We're the Arthur over ere! |
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| davenotamonkey 28 Jun 17 12.52am |
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Originally posted by Mstrobez
Give me the hard economic data that supports us being better off as a country once we end free trade with the largest economic block in the world. Please, I may of stumbled across the first person ever to be able to do this properly, the floors yours, provided you don't use crystal balls... Give me the hard economic data that supports us being better off as a country shackled to the EU. For eternity. No? You can't gaze into the future either? Gosh! So you're just going on conjecture are you? "But muh expurts!!" Ah yes. The IMF. The CBI. The Economist. Bloomberg. Siemens. Toyota. PWC. The EU Commission itself. All (and many, many more) have now U-turned, or indeed simply spoken out, having previously been gagged by Cameron during the election (as per Tony Abbott). As I linked to earlier, the Treasury's sexed-up Brexitgeddon referendum scaremongering unraveled and did not stand up to scrutiny then (see the link I provided to my own post back then), nor now. Will we be better off in the future, having left the EU? Yes. I think we will. My assessment is not borne out of economic tealeaf-reading, nor can yours be of remaining in the EU. But I don't see our membership of an EU superstate as the future direction for this country. This was (according to the most comprehensive exit poll conducted at the time) the #1 reason for voting to leave (sorry to burst your bubble). I read enough economic projections on both sides to judge that, longer-term, it's better we left. I based that on the methodology and assumptions that went into the models used to derive their findings. This is how I work in my day-job, and I came to the conclusion that the near-term uncertainty was a worthwhile factor in securing the many benefits of leaving the EU. Sorry, but not sorry you don't feel the same way. My decision came from a position of research into the subject. Yours demonstrably appears not to have been. Oh, and a little factoid for you: we do not have "free trade" with the EU. It costs us to trade with them. A lot. As you seem to desperately re-fight the referendum, perhaps you should actually educate yourself about the issues. You never know, you might change your mind. While you're there, go take a look at Canada's deal with the EU, and ask yourself why we were paying a fortune to "free" (sic) trade in the single market, when Canadian access, is (sector-dependent) 94-100% tariff free. For free. Now. This really is my last reply to you. I'll do my best to skim past your contributions in future. They don't really advance the discussion.
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| davenotamonkey 28 Jun 17 12.56am |
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Originally posted by Mstrobez
The problem is sacrificing free trade with the EU for the sake of controlling our borders at all costs is not common sense at all, it's ridiculously stupid, hence there not being anyone credible who'd actually lead us down this route, that includes key figures amongst the leave campaign. I fell for the trick of being too ashamed to question the logic behind the confidence of leave voters in fear of being absuively shut down. It wasn't until I educated myself a bit more on both sides that I realised this whole venture is utterly ridiculous and is based around hope rather than facts. You "educated yourself", yet still think UK trade with the EU comes at no cost. LOL.
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