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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)


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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 06 Feb 18 9.22pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Having political opinions about a poor government is not the same as intolerance/discrimination based on race/religion/gender/sexual orientation. Believing that increased freedoms for these things are forces for ill is strongly associated with leave voters...

But it's not is it. It's based on the symptoms of poorly managed multi culture and increased population. And you can't group together all that you list like some homogeneous lump. That is ridiculous.
What the hell has gender and sexual orientation got to do with the EU? You sound like a faulty identity politics robot.

There is little difference because both concerns are for quality of life.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (06 Feb 2018 9.23pm)

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 07 Feb 18 9.41am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

'Jobs first Brexit'....what a load of rot....meaningless waffle.

Brexit will cause economic issues for around five to ten years. Anyone with an atom of sense knows that....so 'jobs first Brexit' is expedient nonsense.

In Brexit People voted for immigration to be reduced. The EU wouldn't allow it so here we are. Nothing you say gives the Brexiters want we want. All you can do is complain about economic fears.....yet the majority voted leave because we don't like the EU....it kind of supersedes everything else.

Just by your weak response to my question we can see that if you had anything to do with these things that you'd be getting a ton of sh1t as well.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Feb 2018 6.49pm)


Your response to the points made about how poorly the government was handling Brexit was to ask when the last time was a government handled anything well. Not much of a response.

I'm actually complaining about the bungling of Brexit. I don't believe Brexit is destined for great success unless it's properly planned and managed, and this has not to date happened. I think it's totally reasonable to anticipate negative impacts if it is mismanaged and carried out with a lack of planning. I don't, whatever you seem to think, believe that it's a project that would be doomed to failure under any circumstances and should be reversed "at all costs". It just seems to me that to allow the current shambles to continue simply to see through Brexit is totally misguided and damaging. The whole process has been a joke and a shining example of how not to carry out such a significant national project.

Some people just won't listen to anything that remotely criticises the direction of travel unless it comes out of the mouth of Ayatolah Rees-Mogg.

Just today the public accounts committee has criticised the government of a significant deficit in planning for Brexit. This kind of thing would get you sacked in business. There are 313 workstreams. When I worked on a merger of a division of a FTSE 250 company and a Fortune 500 company we had 11 workstreams and it took over 18 months of planning from conceptions to completion.

The committee’s deputy chairman, leave-backing Tory MP Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, said Brexit was a “complicated task with the potential to become a damaging and unmanageable muddle”.

“It is concerning that government departments still have so far to go to put their plans into practice. [The] real world will not wait for the government to get its house in order,” he said.


Whether you're pro or anti-Brexit you shouldn't be content with what's going on, and as we can see from the ICM poll most people aren't.

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 07 Feb 18 9.55am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

'Jobs first Brexit'....what a load of rot....meaningless waffle.

Brexit will cause economic issues for around five to ten years. Anyone with an atom of sense knows that....so 'jobs first Brexit' is expedient nonsense.

In Brexit People voted for immigration to be reduced. The EU wouldn't allow it so here we are. Nothing you say gives the Brexiters want we want. All you can do is complain about economic fears.....yet the majority voted leave because we don't like the EU....it kind of supersedes everything else.

Just by your weak response to my question we can see that if you had anything to do with these things that you'd be getting a ton of sh1t as well.

Edited by Stirlingsays (06 Feb 2018 6.49pm)

I don't recall that option being on my ballot paper. Saying the EU wouldn't allow it is showing your lack of knowledge on this subject. The right to reside is only applicable for those who work, study or who are self sufficient after three months of initial residence. Permanent residence is only available after 5 years. People have a right to be physically in the UK, but can only benefit from residency if they meet the conditions. It would be perfectly possible to reduce immigration by regulating work and pay properly and stop companies from carrying out shoddy practices that effectively push out native workers in favour of cheaper European labour. The idea that leaving the EU will stop these kind of practices and immigration is wrong. The tools were already there. The government and previous ones just choose not to use them.

Handy guide on EU rules on free movement: [Link]

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 07 Feb 18 10.02am

Originally posted by matt_himself

Or maybe I am keeping an open mind on the outcome, rather than rushing to make hysterical judgements, driven by those with obvious political intentions?

Your view is your view. Respect others whom have made the decision to judge the outcome when it happens, not to presume that it is a ‘disaster’ before the trade deal has been negotiated.

You'd rather fiddle while Rome burns?

This is the principal of unripe time. The time to make a decision on how this process should be run is now. Leaving it is too dangerous. I understand this principal and why people leave difficult decisions until they are too late. I would hope that the Tories could see past their own self interests on this one and get rid of May.

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 07 Feb 18 10.03am

Originally posted by matt_himself

For the second time, what does ‘jobs first Brexit’ mean in practical terms?

I've already explained it. You must have missed it.

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 07 Feb 18 10.04am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

But it's not is it. It's based on the symptoms of poorly managed multi culture and increased population. And you can't group together all that you list like some homogeneous lump. That is ridiculous.
What the hell has gender and sexual orientation got to do with the EU? You sound like a faulty identity politics robot.

There is little difference because both concerns are for quality of life.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (06 Feb 2018 9.23pm)

As I pointed out 80% of people who believe social liberalism and feminism are forces for ill voted for Brexit. So it clearly has something to do with it for some people.

 

Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 07 Feb 18 10.45am

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

As I pointed out 80% of people who believe social liberalism and feminism are forces for ill voted for Brexit. So it clearly has something to do with it for some people.

The problem is with the question.

How are we defining liberalism and feminism?

 

matt_himself Flag Matataland 07 Feb 18 11.01am

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

I've already explained it. You must have missed it.

It’s meaningless. Your explanation is vague and I have asked for a clarification. You will believe anything spoon fed to you by Labour.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

matt_himself Flag Matataland 07 Feb 18 11.04am

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

You'd rather fiddle while Rome burns?

This is the principal of unripe time. The time to make a decision on how this process should be run is now. Leaving it is too dangerous. I understand this principal and why people leave difficult decisions until they are too late. I would hope that the Tories could see past their own self interests on this one and get rid of May.

No. You don’t understand negotiation nor the tactics that the EU will employ.

You are again demonstrating your nativity and political bias.

I am no supporter of May, when the Boris/JRM dream ticket comes in I will be happy but you don’t show our hand.

 


"That was fun and to round off the day, I am off to steal a charity collection box and then desecrate a place of worship.” - Smokey, The Selhurst Arms, 26/02/02

steeleye20 Flag Croydon 07 Feb 18 11.15am

'jobs first Britain' is just a meaningless platitude.

Looking back I noticed how in fact it can work out exactly the opposite, so mass unemployment must follow !!!!

How about 'land fit for heroes'

and especially 'peace in our time'.

'a country working for all' is a cast-iron guarantee of the opposite.

 

Stirlingsays Flag 07 Feb 18 1.20pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

I don't recall that option being on my ballot paper. Saying the EU wouldn't allow it is showing your lack of knowledge on this subject. The right to reside is only applicable for those who work, study or who are self sufficient after three months of initial residence. Permanent residence is only available after 5 years. People have a right to be physically in the UK, but can only benefit from residency if they meet the conditions. It would be perfectly possible to reduce immigration by regulating work and pay properly and stop companies from carrying out shoddy practices that effectively push out native workers in favour of cheaper European labour. The idea that leaving the EU will stop these kind of practices and immigration is wrong. The tools were already there. The government and previous ones just choose not to use them.

Handy guide on EU rules on free movement: [Link]

Don't lecture me on EU foreigners in the UK and residency and their attitudes towards it. For years I taught many EU youngsters in college classes where they comprised half the class.

You either don't know what you're talking about because you were never on the front line or are just being disingenuous.

Once they are here they have any number of ways of ensuring they stay but you just play dumb or don't know.

Most who go back did and do so because they wanted to.....not because of our requirements.

The fact that I even have to type that out......oh well.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays Flag 07 Feb 18 1.23pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

No. You don’t understand negotiation nor the tactics that the EU will employ.

You are again demonstrating your nativity and political bias.

I am no supporter of May, when the Boris/JRM dream ticket comes in I will be happy but you don’t show our hand.


I won't say this of all remainers.....but this country has a significant number of 'internationalists' who.....in reality are against the idea of an independent nation state. They put economics above any sense of 'belonging'. Indeed, their sense of allegiance is more towards the EU than the UK.

They are soft centered fifth columnists.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 07 Feb 18 1.32pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Don't lecture me on EU foreigners in the UK and residency and their attitudes towards it. For years I taught many EU youngsters in college classes where they comprised half the class.

You either don't know what you're talking about because you were never on the front line or are just being disingenuous.

Once they are here they have any number of ways of ensuring they stay but you just play dumb or don't know.

Most who go back did and do so because they wanted to.....not because of our requirements.

The fact that I even have to type that out......oh well.

You clearly don't know the rules. Whether or not our governments choose to properly apply them is another matter. If it's easy to stay without a right to residency that's no fault of the rules, but a problem with their application.

Furthermore it's not simply the rules that determine migration flows, but how a country's internal labour market operates.

Acting like high immigration is a direct bi-product of EU membership is to misunderstand the underlying fundamental issues. EU membership is just one means to make such immigration possible, but it doesn't explain the demand for such immigration or the actual reasons for such immigration. If you think businesses will suddenly cease demanding such labour or that the Tories will stop them from getting it I believe you are mistaken. We will just have an added layer of bureaucracy and cost. The fundamentals of the market need altering.

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 07 Feb 18 1.38pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

The problem is with the question.

How are we defining liberalism and feminism?


Given I didn't administer the survey I don't know, but at the very least they are commonly well known words that each respondent would be able to define with some meaning that the rest of us would recognise.

I don't think a definition is important, it's more the negative feeling those words invoke and the extremely high correlation with voting leave when those negative feelings are invoked.

It's fairly unequivocal, given the findings, that those with a negative view of equal rights for non-white non-straight males were far more likely to have voted leave.

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 07 Feb 18 1.48pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

It’s meaningless. Your explanation is vague and I have asked for a clarification. You will believe anything spoon fed to you by Labour.

Their policy is stated as a "jobs first Brexit". That is defined as aiming for whatever deal results in the best outcome for British workers. That means protecting rights and enhancing them. That means keeping all options open in negotiations and using collaborative democratic process to determine what the British people want (this has been done btw and suggests Labour's attitude is in line with the public - google Brexit Assembly). If it means a Norway model then so be it. if it means staying in the Customs union then so be it. If it's following the teachings of Ayatolah Rees-Mogg then so be it.

The point is that it sets out the main goal of Brexit and then works collaboratively within the UK and with the EU to establish the end point that best achieves that goal, without ruling out options in advance before they have been assessed. They can then look at all the options and assess which would have the most beneficial impact on jobs and living standards for the JAMs.

The Tory policy is far more vague and seems to involve putting the cart before the horse on trade.

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 07 Feb 18 1.54pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

No. You don’t understand negotiation nor the tactics that the EU will employ.

You are again demonstrating your nativity and political bias.

I am no supporter of May, when the Boris/JRM dream ticket comes in I will be happy but you don’t show our hand.

I'm British. Not sure where you thought I was from.

I guess that's about as close to a criticism of May's handling of the situation we'll get from you. When would you like this dream ticket to come in? 2019? I would rather see something done about it now. I would support getting rid of May now if JRM/Boris was my preferred option to run the country. Surely we need the people with the Brexit vision you favour in charge not simply waiting in the wings?

I doubt it will change the EU's tactics all that much. They probably expect May to be gone any day as it is.

 

Stirlingsays Flag 07 Feb 18 2.06pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

You clearly don't know the rules. Whether or not our governments choose to properly apply them is another matter. If it's easy to stay without a right to residency that's no fault of the rules, but a problem with their application.

Furthermore it's not simply the rules that determine migration flows, but how a country's internal labour market operates.

Acting like high immigration is a direct bi-product of EU membership is to misunderstand the underlying fundamental issues. EU membership is just one means to make such immigration possible, but it doesn't explain the demand for such immigration or the actual reasons for such immigration. If you think businesses will suddenly cease demanding such labour or that the Tories will stop them from getting it I believe you are mistaken. We will just have an added layer of bureaucracy and cost. The fundamentals of the market need altering.


The EU residency rules are not difficult to meet if you wish to move here. That's independent on whether the government applied them.

The numbers who came here and stayed makes that massively plain.....or should do...even to those wishing to obfuscate.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stuk Flag Top half 07 Feb 18 2.53pm

Originally posted by matt_himself

At the moment yes but it will happen in future years and you knew what I meant.

Before the referendum, Nick Clegg said that talk of a combined EU army was rubbish yet it is happening.

The opposition leader in Germany has openly called for a Federal Europe.

The EU brings his all about by stealth and ignoring the will of people. When Ireland rejected the Lisbon Treaty, they forced agreement upon them.

Open your eyes.

He ain't the opposition leader anymore. He's in (a slightly enforced by the President of Germany) coalition with Merkel and has stated today:

Mr Schulz said the SPD had pushed through many of its own policies to the agreement.

Schulz said: "You'll forgive me for thanking Mrs Merkel and Mr Seehofer, especially regarding the European policy chapter of this deal, because what we wrote down in this coalition agreement about the European Union and its future will be a fundamental change of direction in Europe.

"With this coalition agreement, Germany will take an active and leading role in the European Union again."

 


Optimistic as ever

steeleye20 Flag Croydon 07 Feb 18 4.40pm

Theresa May refuses to rule out selling off the NHS in post-Brexit trade deal with Trump

Why has Trump been making disparaging remarks about our NHS, what would it have to do with him.

It's on his shopping list that's why.

 

.TUX. Flag 07 Feb 18 5.35pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Theresa May refuses to rule out selling off the NHS in post-Brexit trade deal with Trump

Why has Trump been making disparaging remarks about our NHS, what would it have to do with him.

It's on his shopping list that's why.

It's been on the IOUSA's pharma-corporations list for years, slyly aided by every UK govt for just as long.
Oh well.


 


Buy Litecoin.

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