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hedgehog50 Croydon 12 Nov 17 12.36pm
Originally posted by legaleagle As do many religions... Ever been to the deep south in the USA? Ever been to Bosnia? Ever been to Poland or Hungary? All areas with a minority of extremists (sometimes violent) emanating from a conservative christian culture You couldn't have had Bosnia in the 1990's without Christian extremism,not could you have Myanmar 2017 without Buddhist extremism.Nor the Spanish Inquisition without Christianity. The point being that the underlying religion was not the same as the extreme ideological manifestations. Salafist jihadism IMHO has much in common with insurgencies and counter insurgency strategies in the 20th century....and many of those were not rooted in religion. Do you know many Muslims personally,Stirling? You could be right, look at the minority of extremists in the Labour Party (albeit some of them are among the leadership) and the extremism in the left in general. Not all of them are crypto-communists, but a sizeable minority are. I expect it was just a minority of people in Hitler's SS who were rather nasty. Same with your Nazi Germany in general, the majority of Germans were not in the Nazi party, therefore the Nazi were not a problem? World War II was some sort of overreaction by us? We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 12 Nov 17 12.36pm

Originally posted by legaleagle

As do many religions...

Ever been to the deep south in the USA?

Ever been to Bosnia?

Ever been to Poland or Hungary?

All areas with a minority of extremists (sometimes violent) emanating from a conservative christian culture

You couldn't have had Bosnia in the 1990's without Christian extremism,not could you have Myanmar 2017 without Buddhist extremism.Nor the Spanish Inquisition without Christianity.

The point being that the underlying religion was not the same as the extreme ideological manifestations.

Salafist jihadism IMHO has much in common with insurgencies and counter insurgency strategies in the 20th century....and many of those were not rooted in religion.

Do you know many Muslims personally,Stirling?

You could be right, look at the minority of extremists in the Labour Party (albeit some of them are among the leadership) and the extremism in the left in general. Not all of them are crypto-communists, but a sizeable minority are. I expect it was just a minority of people in Hitler's SS who were rather nasty. Same with your Nazi Germany in general, the majority of Germans were not in the Nazi party, therefore the Nazi were not a problem? World War II was some sort of overreaction by us?

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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danny choo choo Hayes 12 Nov 17 1.15pm
Originally posted by nickgusset It's not the latest. That article is back in June. You don't think far right extremists perpetuate the problem in any way? No! The main problem in this country extremism wise is clearly islamic are you blind or just blinkered? How are the extreme far right making islamic extremism worse? if tthe NF bnp and neo nazi groups were wiped out tomorrow (would be nice) do you honestly think islamic extremism would decline? Do me a favour.
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danny choo choo

Hayes 12 Nov 17 1.15pm

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Originally posted by nickgusset

It's not the latest. That article is back in June.

You don't think far right extremists perpetuate the problem in any way?

No! The main problem in this country extremism wise is clearly islamic are you blind or just blinkered? How are the extreme far right making islamic extremism worse? if tthe NF bnp and neo nazi groups were wiped out tomorrow (would be nice) do you honestly think islamic extremism would decline? Do me a favour.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 12 Nov 17 1.28pm
Originally posted by danny choo choo No! The main problem in this country extremism wise is clearly islamic are you blind or just blinkered? How are the extreme far right making islamic extremism worse? if tthe NF bnp and neo nazi groups were wiped out tomorrow (would be nice) do you honestly think islamic extremism would decline? Do me a favour. So not one jot of difference. Really. Haven't said Islamic extremism isn't a problem, it is. S'funny how anyone moaning about islamaphobia is told they sympathise with terrorists.
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 12 Nov 17 1.28pm

Originally posted by danny choo choo

So not one jot of difference. Really.

Haven't said Islamic extremism isn't a problem, it is. S'funny how anyone moaning about islamaphobia is told they sympathise with terrorists.

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hedgehog50 Croydon 12 Nov 17 1.39pm
Originally posted by nickgusset So not one jot of difference. Really. Haven't said Islamic extremism isn't a problem, it is. S'funny how anyone moaning about islamaphobia is told they sympathise with terrorists. Not sympathise exactly, but make excuses, frame various debatable reasons why they are terrorists, shift blame to the West's foreign policy, say that it has nothing to do with Islam, go on about right wing terrorism as if it is in the same league, generally play down the seriousness of the threat of Islamic extremism. We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 12 Nov 17 1.39pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

So not one jot of difference. Really.

Haven't said Islamic extremism isn't a problem, it is. S'funny how anyone moaning about islamaphobia is told they sympathise with terrorists.

Not sympathise exactly, but make excuses, frame various debatable reasons why they are terrorists, shift blame to the West's foreign policy, say that it has nothing to do with Islam, go on about right wing terrorism as if it is in the same league, generally play down the seriousness of the threat of Islamic extremism.

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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danny choo choo Hayes 12 Nov 17 2.11pm
Originally posted by legaleagle I don't contradict myself at all. Let's look at a few examples from history to see that the difference I drew is valid: 1. Ireland.The Provos were a problem. Cathlolic Irish people generally wren't 2.The UDA were a problem.N Ireland protestants as an entity weren't. 3.Kenya; Mau Mau were a problem.Black Kenyans as a group weren't 4. Taliban in Afghanistan are a problem,Afghanis as a group aren't 5.Et al I see you regard concerns about right wing extremism (been to Hungary or Poland lately?)in Europe as "ridiculous". You are,of course entitled to your opinion Mr Choo Choo,but it does rather give context to claims that the FLA are opposed to all extremism The group's you mention and im sure you'll correct me if im wrong did not want to make the whole world convert to there way of thinking or ideeoligy did they? And the one group you could of mentioned that was more apt was Nazis in Germany were a problem? Yes Germans as a group.... oh hang on a minute. I dont condone far rightwing extremism at all and neither does the FLA, what you are clearly getting confused with and your friends from the far left (see its so i easy to label you aswell) is the uprising over europe and this country is mostly made up of people who are centre or maybe slightly left or right wing who are alarmed at this islamic religion which is growing at unpresedented rate that it does not conform to our values compared to its beliefs and violent anti any non believers stance at its core,is it really that difficult for you to understand? Do you honestly see there not being any problem with it and where its going to be in 20 30 years time? Your question to stirling of do you know any muslims? Well i work with a few muslims and we get on fine although in the main they are very moderate and not practicing it religiously (excuse the pun) ive also spoke to many outside a mosque near where i work and it turns out they have similar values to me and are always trying to engage and help the community they are Ahmadiyya muslims good people athough sadly are not accepted as muslims by others. All i want is people at the top to ask the fundamental diffucult awkward questions of what is inherently wrong with this ancient religion that it is being used and transpired to cause such shocking acts of terror across the world and that it needs reforming can you tell me what is so wronng about that legaleagle? And while i remember Whats your take on "taqiyya"?
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danny choo choo

Hayes 12 Nov 17 2.11pm

Originally posted by legaleagle

I don't contradict myself at all.

Let's look at a few examples from history to see that the difference I drew is valid:

1. Ireland.The Provos were a problem. Cathlolic Irish people generally wren't

2.The UDA were a problem.N Ireland protestants as an entity weren't.

3.Kenya; Mau Mau were a problem.Black Kenyans as a group weren't

4. Taliban in Afghanistan are a problem,Afghanis as a group aren't

5.Et al

I see you regard concerns about right wing extremism (been to Hungary or Poland lately?)in Europe as "ridiculous".

You are,of course entitled to your opinion Mr Choo Choo,but it does rather give context to claims that the FLA are opposed to all extremism

The group's you mention and im sure you'll correct me if im wrong did not want to make the whole world convert to there way of thinking or ideeoligy did they? And the one group you could of mentioned that was more apt was
Nazis in Germany were a problem? Yes
Germans as a group.... oh hang on a minute.

I dont condone far rightwing extremism at all and neither does the FLA, what you are clearly getting confused with and your friends from the far left (see its so i easy to label you aswell) is the uprising over europe and this country is mostly made up of people who are centre or maybe slightly left or right wing who are alarmed at this islamic religion which is growing at unpresedented rate that it does not conform to our values compared to its beliefs and violent anti any non believers stance at its core,is it really that difficult for you to understand? Do you honestly see there not being any problem with it and where its going to be in 20 30 years time?

Your question to stirling of do you know any muslims? Well i work with a few muslims and we get on fine although in the main they are very moderate and not practicing it religiously (excuse the pun) ive also spoke to many outside a mosque near where i work and it turns out they have similar values to me and are always trying to engage and help the community they are Ahmadiyya muslims good people athough sadly are not accepted as muslims by others.
All i want is people at the top to ask the fundamental diffucult awkward questions of what is inherently wrong with this ancient religion that it is being used and transpired to cause such shocking acts of terror across the world and that it needs reforming can you tell me what is so wronng about that legaleagle?

And while i remember Whats your take on "taqiyya"?

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legaleagle 12 Nov 17 2.28pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 You could be right, look at the minority of extremists in the Labour Party (albeit some of them are among the leadership) and the extremism in the left in general. Not all of them are crypto-communists, but a sizeable minority are. I expect it was just a minority of people in Hitler's SS who were rather nasty. Same with your Nazi Germany in general, the majority of Germans were not in the Nazi party, therefore the Nazi were not a problem? World War II was some sort of overreaction by us? Inane. Fascists were and remain evil scum,as do their fellow travellers. Fascists in Germany were German. Ergo all Germans are responsible for Nazism and needed to be treated like fascists?....er,no.
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legaleagle

12 Nov 17 2.28pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Inane.

Fascists were and remain evil scum,as do their fellow travellers.

Fascists in Germany were German.

Ergo all Germans are responsible for Nazism and needed to be treated like fascists?....er,no.

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legaleagle 12 Nov 17 2.40pm
Originally posted by danny choo choo The group's you mention and im sure you'll correct me if im wrong did not want to make the whole world convert to there way of thinking or ideeoligy did they? And the one group you could of mentioned that was more apt was Nazis in Germany were a problem? Yes Germans as a group.... oh hang on a minute. I dont condone far rightwing extremism at all and neither does the FLA, what you are clearly getting confused with and your friends from the far left (see its so i easy to label you aswell) is the uprising over europe and this country is mostly made up of people who are centre or maybe slightly left or right wing who are alarmed at this islamic religion which is growing at unpresedented rate that it does not conform to our values compared to its beliefs and violent anti any non believers stance at its core,is it really that difficult for you to understand? Do you honestly see there not being any problem with it and where its going to be in 20 30 years time? Your question to stirling of do you know any muslims? Well i work with a few muslims and we get on fine although in the main they are very moderate and not practicing it religiously (excuse the pun) ive also spoke to many outside a mosque near where i work and it turns out they have similar values to me and are always trying to engage and help the community they are Ahmadiyya muslims good people athough sadly are not accepted as muslims by others. All i want is people at the top to ask the fundamental diffucult awkward questions of what is inherently wrong with this ancient religion that it is being used and transpired to cause such shocking acts of terror across the world and that it needs reforming can you tell me what is so wronng about that legaleagle? And while i remember Whats your take on "taqiyya"? Precisely.Your actual experience with "Muslims" is that they,shock horror,are basically just like the rest of us and not set on making the whole world just like them and not in need of "reform".. You demonise a whole group based on the extreme ideology of a few "members",just like IRA,Mau Mau,Christians in Bosnia etc. Countering sulafist jijadism has much in common with plain old counter insurgency strategies.The one lesson to learn from history about that is you are on a loser demonising the mass...its an easy knee jerk but gets no one anywhere. Anyway,so much for FLA protestations that it is not islamophobe.It isn't.... in much the same way that camels like the arctic. What do I think of taqiyah? Well,I see how it is interpreted (like things so many religions) to mean different things to different people at different times,and not so different to similar justifications promoted at different times in the past by christians,jews and buddhists. Edited by legaleagle (12 Nov 2017 2.41pm)
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legaleagle

12 Nov 17 2.40pm

Originally posted by danny choo choo

And while i remember Whats your take on "taqiyya"?

Precisely.Your actual experience with "Muslims" is that they,shock horror,are basically just like the rest of us and not set on making the whole world just like them and not in need of "reform"..

You demonise a whole group based on the extreme ideology of a few "members",just like IRA,Mau Mau,Christians in Bosnia etc.

Countering sulafist jijadism has much in common with plain old counter insurgency strategies.The one lesson to learn from history about that is you are on a loser demonising the mass...its an easy knee jerk but gets no one anywhere.

Anyway,so much for FLA protestations that it is not islamophobe.It isn't.... in much the same way that camels like the arctic.

What do I think of taqiyah? Well,I see how it is interpreted (like things so many religions) to mean different things to different people at different times,and not so different to similar justifications promoted at different times in the past by christians,jews and buddhists.

Edited by legaleagle (12 Nov 2017 2.41pm)

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hedgehog50 Croydon 12 Nov 17 2.46pm
Originally posted by legaleagle Inane. Fascists were and remain evil scum,as do their fellow travellers. Fascists in Germany were German. Ergo all Germans are responsible for Nazism and needed to be treated like fascists?....er,no. I think most people would more or less agree with you on that. Do you more or less agree that Communists were and remain evil scum, as do their fellow travellers? Edited by hedgehog50 (12 Nov 2017 2.47pm) We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 12 Nov 17 2.46pm

Originally posted by legaleagle

Inane.

Fascists were and remain evil scum,as do their fellow travellers.

Fascists in Germany were German.

Ergo all Germans are responsible for Nazism and needed to be treated like fascists?....er,no.

I think most people would more or less agree with you on that. Do you more or less agree that Communists were and remain evil scum, as do their fellow travellers?

Edited by hedgehog50 (12 Nov 2017 2.47pm)

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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Kermit8 Hevon 12 Nov 17 3.01pm
Originally posted by hedgehog50 I think most people would more or less agree with you on that. Do you more or less agree that Communists were and remain evil scum, as do their fellow travellers? Edited by hedgehog50 (12 Nov 2017 2.47pm) Not all communists are 'evil' - Kerala remember? Fascism by its very definition basically commands a cold heart and dark nature in order to be part of it. Today's fascists - the alt-right - certainly possess those qualities. Big chest and massive boobs [Link]
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Kermit8

Hevon 12 Nov 17 3.01pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

I think most people would more or less agree with you on that. Do you more or less agree that Communists were and remain evil scum, as do their fellow travellers?

Edited by hedgehog50 (12 Nov 2017 2.47pm)

Not all communists are 'evil' - Kerala remember? Fascism by its very definition basically commands a cold heart and dark nature in order to be part of it. Today's fascists - the alt-right - certainly possess those qualities.

Big chest and massive boobs

[Link]

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Stirlingsays 12 Nov 17 3.02pm
Originally posted by legaleagle Inane. Fascists were and remain evil scum,as do their fellow travellers. Fascists in Germany were German. Ergo all Germans are responsible for Nazism and needed to be treated like fascists?....er,no. As you seem so absolutist in your terminology. Fascists were Italian, Nazis were national socialists and German. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Nov 17 3.02pm

Originally posted by legaleagle

Inane.

Fascists were and remain evil scum,as do their fellow travellers.

Fascists in Germany were German.

Ergo all Germans are responsible for Nazism and needed to be treated like fascists?....er,no.

As you seem so absolutist in your terminology.
Fascists were Italian, Nazis were national socialists and German.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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hedgehog50 Croydon 12 Nov 17 3.18pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Not all communists are 'evil' - Kerala remember? Fascism by its very definition basically commands a cold heart and dark nature in order to be part of it. Today's fascists - the alt-right - certainly possess those qualities. If they are proper communists then they have cold hearts and dark natures. Certainly the Islamic terrorists fit the bill don't they. What you and legal are really saying is that when extreme groups carry out awful acts, the characterisation of them as 'evil and 'scum' depends on whether you approve or disapprove of their ideologies. Edited by hedgehog50 (12 Nov 2017 3.21pm) We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]
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hedgehog50

Croydon 12 Nov 17 3.18pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

If they are proper communists then they have cold hearts and dark natures. Certainly the Islamic terrorists fit the bill don't they. What you and legal are really saying is that when extreme groups carry out awful acts, the characterisation of them as 'evil and 'scum' depends on whether you approve or disapprove of their ideologies.

Edited by hedgehog50 (12 Nov 2017 3.21pm)

We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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Stirlingsays 12 Nov 17 3.28pm
Originally posted by Kermit8 Not all communists are 'evil' - Kerala remember? Fascism by its very definition basically commands a cold heart and dark nature in order to be part of it. Today's fascists - the alt-right - certainly possess those qualities. All authoritarian regimes are bad ideas. Communism is authoritarian as is Fascism. Fascist....the most abused word ever. Far right is so much better.....the alt-right isn't an organised political body like the Fascists were. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays

12 Nov 17 3.28pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

All authoritarian regimes are bad ideas. Communism is authoritarian as is Fascism.

Fascist....the most abused word ever.

Far right is so much better.....the alt-right isn't an organised political body like the Fascists were.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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