You don't even support democracy and self determination as we saw in the recent 'Catalonia' situation.

So you have a cheek to refer to these matters quite honestly.

Anyway remain don't deserve another vote.

The only time I would view another vote as fair.....is what....like waiting thirty or forty years.

Because that's how long it took parliament to give us another vote on the EU.

The remainers deserve exactly the same treatment they gave out.

If their ranks weren't so full of non democratic hypocrites I'd allow a vote after about ten years.......As should have been the f**king case after the seventies vote in the first place.

But people like you were blocking it......but now it's oh so different isn't it.

Here's a big fat raspberry.

Edited by Stirlingsays (23 Sep 2018 4.26pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Lets not forget just how long leavers were calling for a vote on the EU.

Lets not forget that we know it was half the country.

Like I say....the remainers now call for something most of them refused to give......Lots of them slag off Cameron for allowing the vote.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

A position you are used to I suspect.

"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

you had to.

white loner, at least we have gun control.

"Everything is air-droppable at least once."

"When the going gets tough, the tough call for close air support."

I don't want a second referendum, just as I didn't want the first one. Referendums are not the way we do things. We elect representatives to take these decisions on our behalf. They have the time, and the access to the resources, to take informed, wise, decisions. They are the professionals. You don't ask a butcher to do brain surgery. Why ask him whether we should stay in the EU? You ask him who he wants to represent him and then let that representative do their job. Asking the people directly invites campaigns of misinformation and downright lies. With something as complicated, and fraught with emotion, as Brexit then that is especially true. As the last 2 years have shown what people voted for is a million miles away from what they will eventually get, whatever that turns out to be.

No, this matter, as all others, ought only to be decided by Parliament. Our Parliament was, and still is, overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU. Even the PM was in favour of remaining. We simply cannot defer any longer to the noisy right wing of the Tory party and the fact that Cameron made a mistake. Why should the UK be made to suffer simply because Cameron got his calculations wrong?

So our Parliament needs to grow some balls and do what they know is right and forget that in doing so there will be short term political costs to pay.

Only if they decide they cannot grow those balls would I reluctantly accept a second referendum. Get it over, keep us in, and then ban referendums for ever.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Switzerland is having another referendum today this happens on a regular basis on all sorts of matters. I rather like the idea because it goes back to the roots of democracy. The Athenians would gather in the town square and would vote on the issue of the day they didn't have political parties. That is true democracy.

Granted most people don't have the time or inclination to devote to understand the issues so we have representatives. The problem is when they go off message and against the wishes of the people. If a MP switches parties he should be forced into a by election after all what the people thought they were voting for is no longer true.

I am probably in a minority but I would allow the people to hold a referendum on any subject as long as they obtain enough signatures. This will never happen though because the establishment like to keep power amongst themselves.

Politicians like to say we live in a democracy but that is not correct in the true sense of the word as I explain above. More accurately I believe we live in a oligarchy (Rule by a small powerful elite) or as The Who sang "Meet the new boss same as the old boss".

Enough rambling I am off to bed.

One more point

An enjoyable ramble B.

Well, I'm not. We have decided to leave.
A referendum on the details is pointless. Whatever the result, someone will be unhappy.

In some countries Switzerland Italy etc. they have referendums about once a month, mainly to nullify the result of the previous referendum.

A referendum is actually democratic, and a government should never call one in that case, look what has happened here.

A general election is definitely not democratic, in our case less than half a million votes decide who the next incumbent is.

The result of the referendum was narrowly yes in this case, but the result is really a victory for referendums.

They can be held at any time in the future to over-turn this, so there is no leaving with certainty.

Attlee and Thatcher, our most notable post-war leaders had in right about referendums IMO.

If our representatives, having studied the issue, decide then we should accept it. You don't have to agree with it and can campaign to elect a group of other representatives but it's the MP's job to decide these things. Ours is to choose them. This is even more important now because of the way that people are being influenced by social media. MI6 told Mrs May that the Brexit vote was not "free or fair" and recommended that it be redone, because of the Russian interference in the process. With it being known that the Russians also influenced the 2016 US Presidential election and interfered in both France and Italy it must now be obvious that we need to consign referendums to history as untrustworthy. Criticising the party system and trying to find ways to improve it so that it becomes more genuinely representative is a totally separate issue. I believe our current system is broken and we desperately need a new party of the centre, but that's just my own opinion.

Parliament did not make a deal with Hitler! It chose a man to lead a multi party government, and the country, united in common cause. I can only imagine what the result of a referendum then would have been if the people had been asked whether they wanted to go to war with Germany again. When parliament banned homosexuality most of the country, including probably me, would have agreed. We are wiser now, better informed and more understanding as a society. That's the evolution of ideas at work, which is what parliament can lead. The people tend to follow and lag behind. Referendums therefore delay progress.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.