Female Dr Who?

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Female Dr Who?

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Hrolf The Ganger 17 Jul 17 10.20pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston I think the difference is that Bond is a generic character - originally written as white man because in 1950s Britain that's who would be working at MI6 - while Shaft is written as a culturally-specific character. There's no reason, therefore, why a Bond updated to the 21st century can't be any race, creed, colour, gender or sexual orientation. Shaft, conversely, is locked in because his race defines a significant portion of his character. Perhaps you could make Shaft a black female with a overcharged libido, but then the name takes on a slightly looser connotation. Maybe a gay black female, because that way she could still be a sex machine to all the chicks. Anyway, this stuff happens all the time. One of the more notable examples was in the original Alien, where Ripley was written as a man (and Sigourney Weaver was originally cast as whiny-Lambert). Now, Alien would've been fine with Ripley being male, but isn't the movie world a little brighter for having an arse-kicking lead female character like Ripley? So, Dr. Who, being an alien taking on human form, can take on whatever form it wants; Bond can be anything that's appropriate to the time period; and Shaft is always going to be black. There is no need to try and create an equivalency between any of these things; they are driven by the innate traits of character, not superficial looks. Bond is culturally specific as well. He had a Scottish father and a Swiss mother. The simple fact is that I want Bond to be White. I am white and he has always been written as white. I'm happy with that.

Hrolf The Ganger

17 Jul 17 10.20pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

I think the difference is that Bond is a generic character - originally written as white man because in 1950s Britain that's who would be working at MI6 - while Shaft is written as a culturally-specific character.

There's no reason, therefore, why a Bond updated to the 21st century can't be any race, creed, colour, gender or sexual orientation. Shaft, conversely, is locked in because his race defines a significant portion of his character. Perhaps you could make Shaft a black female with a overcharged libido, but then the name takes on a slightly looser connotation. Maybe a gay black female, because that way she could still be a sex machine to all the chicks.

Anyway, this stuff happens all the time. One of the more notable examples was in the original Alien, where Ripley was written as a man (and Sigourney Weaver was originally cast as whiny-Lambert). Now, Alien would've been fine with Ripley being male, but isn't the movie world a little brighter for having an arse-kicking lead female character like Ripley?

So, Dr. Who, being an alien taking on human form, can take on whatever form it wants; Bond can be anything that's appropriate to the time period; and Shaft is always going to be black. There is no need to try and create an equivalency between any of these things; they are driven by the innate traits of character, not superficial looks.

Bond is culturally specific as well. He had a Scottish father and a Swiss mother.
The simple fact is that I want Bond to be White. I am white and he has always been written as white. I'm happy with that.

Hrolf The Ganger 17 Jul 17 10.22pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston If you've seen Chiwetel Ejiofor as the operative in "Serenity", you'll know that he has the sauve and the moves to play Bond. [Link] I like both Chiwetel Ejiofor and Idris Elba but not as Bond.

Hrolf The Ganger

17 Jul 17 10.22pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

If you've seen Chiwetel Ejiofor as the operative in "Serenity", you'll know that he has the sauve and the moves to play Bond.

[Link]

I like both Chiwetel Ejiofor and Idris Elba but not as Bond.

Ray in Houston Houston 18 Jul 17 3.08pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Bond is culturally specific as well. He had a Scottish father and a Swiss mother. If Bond is set in current times, there's every chance that, from that union, he could be black. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Ray in Houston

Houston 18 Jul 17 3.08pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Bond is culturally specific as well. He had a Scottish father and a Swiss mother.

If Bond is set in current times, there's every chance that, from that union, he could be black.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Ray in Houston Houston 18 Jul 17 3.10pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I like both Chiwetel Ejiofor and Idris Elba but not as Bond. The difference between you and me is that I want the representation of Bond to be done well; you want white first, quality second. There's a word for that. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Ray in Houston

Houston 18 Jul 17 3.10pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I like both Chiwetel Ejiofor and Idris Elba but not as Bond.

The difference between you and me is that I want the representation of Bond to be done well; you want white first, quality second. There's a word for that.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

jamiemartin721 Reading 18 Jul 17 3.19pm
'Dr Who and the Pyramid Pay Gap' will be an interesting episode. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]

jamiemartin721

Reading 18 Jul 17 3.19pm

'Dr Who and the Pyramid Pay Gap' will be an interesting episode.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

dannyh wherever I lay my hat....... 18 Jul 17 3.23pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 'Dr Who and the Pyramid Pay Gap' will be an interesting episode. Doctor who "learns to piss sitting down, and waves goodbye to his trusty urinal" would be another. "It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

dannyh

wherever I lay my hat....... 18 Jul 17 3.23pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

'Dr Who and the Pyramid Pay Gap' will be an interesting episode.

Doctor who "learns to piss sitting down, and waves goodbye to his trusty urinal" would be another.

"It's not the bullet that's got my name on it that concerns me; it's all them other ones flyin' around marked 'To Whom It May Concern.'"

Part Time James 18 Jul 17 3.24pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston The difference between you and me is that I want the representation of Bond to be done well; you want white first, quality second. There's a word for that. Good point, they cast Robert Powell as Jesus Christ and there wasn't as much furore.

Part Time James

18 Jul 17 3.24pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

The difference between you and me is that I want the representation of Bond to be done well; you want white first, quality second. There's a word for that.

Good point, they cast Robert Powell as Jesus Christ and there wasn't as much furore.

jamiemartin721 Reading 18 Jul 17 3.27pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Bond is culturally specific as well. He had a Scottish father and a Swiss mother. The simple fact is that I want Bond to be White. I am white and he has always been written as white. I'm happy with that. Well yes and no, its been established that 007 is in fact part of a government 00 program. He's been portrayed by a number of very different actors, who've assumed the mantle of James Bond, 007 - and each one has been a distinct personality, and with a different appearance. Given the Secret Services history of being incredibly progressive * in terms of gender and sexuality, it wouldn't be a stretch to see the mantle of 007 assumed by a woman, someone who is gay, transgendered etc. * From an intelligence agencies point of view having agents who are women and of different sexual orientation and gender has proven very useful for infiltration and avoiding suspicion, as well as for blackmailing and turning enemy assets. SOE found that female agents aroused a lot less suspicion than their male counterparts. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]

jamiemartin721

Reading 18 Jul 17 3.27pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Well yes and no, its been established that 007 is in fact part of a government 00 program. He's been portrayed by a number of very different actors, who've assumed the mantle of James Bond, 007 - and each one has been a distinct personality, and with a different appearance.

Given the Secret Services history of being incredibly progressive * in terms of gender and sexuality, it wouldn't be a stretch to see the mantle of 007 assumed by a woman, someone who is gay, transgendered etc.

* From an intelligence agencies point of view having agents who are women and of different sexual orientation and gender has proven very useful for infiltration and avoiding suspicion, as well as for blackmailing and turning enemy assets.

SOE found that female agents aroused a lot less suspicion than their male counterparts.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Part Time James 18 Jul 17 3.33pm
It's not infeasible for a James Bond with prosthetic legs. They could house some additional gadgets that previous Bonds were lacking. Plus, when he/she/it gets tied to a chair he/she/it could wriggle out of the prosthetic legs surprising the villain before throwing one at the villain's head. I like that you're thinking out of the box Jamie but I still feel like you are confined by a slightly larger box. By the way. James is a bloke's name.

Part Time James

18 Jul 17 3.33pm

It's not infeasible for a James Bond with prosthetic legs. They could house some additional gadgets that previous Bonds were lacking. Plus, when he/she/it gets tied to a chair he/she/it could wriggle out of the prosthetic legs surprising the villain before throwing one at the villain's head.

I like that you're thinking out of the box Jamie but I still feel like you are confined by a slightly larger box.

By the way. James is a bloke's name.

jamiemartin721 Reading 18 Jul 17 3.39pm
Originally posted by Part Time James It's not infeasible for a James Bond with prosthetic legs. They could house some additional gadgets that previous Bonds were lacking. Plus, when he/she/it gets tied to a chair he/she/it could wriggle out of the prosthetic legs surprising the villain before throwing one at the villain's head. I like that you're thinking out of the box Jamie but I still feel like you are confined by a slightly larger box. By the way. James is a bloke's name. Yes, so presumably she'd be called Jane Bond or Jamie Bond or something similar. Certainly, that scene in Casino Royale where he's tied to the chair naked getting his bollocks beaten would have been more 'interesting'. Arguably James Bond would never, in reality, pass the kind of psychological testing required to obtain that level of clearance. He's a borderline narcissist with anti-social personality disorder - Who exhibits a lack of affect on a clinical level, and homicidal tendencies. So arguably we've already had a disabled Bond. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]

jamiemartin721

Reading 18 Jul 17 3.39pm

Originally posted by Part Time James

I like that you're thinking out of the box Jamie but I still feel like you are confined by a slightly larger box.

By the way. James is a bloke's name.

Yes, so presumably she'd be called Jane Bond or Jamie Bond or something similar. Certainly, that scene in Casino Royale where he's tied to the chair naked getting his bollocks beaten would have been more 'interesting'.

Arguably James Bond would never, in reality, pass the kind of psychological testing required to obtain that level of clearance. He's a borderline narcissist with anti-social personality disorder - Who exhibits a lack of affect on a clinical level, and homicidal tendencies.

So arguably we've already had a disabled Bond.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

jamiemartin721 Reading 18 Jul 17 3.40pm
Originally posted by Part Time James By the way. James is a bloke's name. Only if they're called James or Jim. Anyone who is called James, but goes by the name Jamie is a total bender of children. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]

jamiemartin721

Reading 18 Jul 17 3.40pm

Originally posted by Part Time James

By the way. James is a bloke's name.

Only if they're called James or Jim. Anyone who is called James, but goes by the name Jamie is a total bender of children.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

Part Time James 18 Jul 17 3.41pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Yes, so presumably she'd be called Jane Bond or Jamie Bond or something similar. Certainly, that scene in Casino Royale where he's tied to the chair naked getting his bollocks beaten would have been more 'interesting'. Arguably James Bond would never, in reality, pass the kind of psychological testing required to obtain that level of clearance. He's a borderline narcissist with anti-social personality disorder - Who exhibits a lack of affect on a clinical level, and homicidal tendencies. So arguably we've already had a disabled Bond. Not enough disability to tick the D&I box for me. How about this: a female bond (let's say Jamie as it is a very feminine name) Jamie Bond, she's disabled and gay. Her disabilities are that she is top heavy and a rampant lesbian nymphomaniac. I've literally forgotten where I was going with this.

Part Time James

18 Jul 17 3.41pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

So arguably we've already had a disabled Bond.

Not enough disability to tick the D&I box for me. How about this: a female bond (let's say Jamie as it is a very feminine name) Jamie Bond, she's disabled and gay. Her disabilities are that she is top heavy and a rampant lesbian nymphomaniac.

I've literally forgotten where I was going with this.

Hrolf The Ganger 18 Jul 17 3.42pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Well yes and no, its been established that 007 is in fact part of a government 00 program. He's been portrayed by a number of very different actors, who've assumed the mantle of James Bond, 007 - and each one has been a distinct personality, and with a different appearance. Given the Secret Services history of being incredibly progressive * in terms of gender and sexuality, it wouldn't be a stretch to see the mantle of 007 assumed by a woman, someone who is gay, transgendered etc. * From an intelligence agencies point of view having agents who are women and of different sexual orientation and gender has proven very useful for infiltration and avoiding suspicion, as well as for blackmailing and turning enemy assets. SOE found that female agents aroused a lot less suspicion than their male counterparts. In reality perhaps but Bond is not real. He is a vehicle by which a film company makes money. Therefore he must appeal to the most profitable markets. If that ever means that he is Black or Asian then that really means that Northern Europeans are at two minutes to midnight. As far as him being a woman or gay, that would remove a large chunk of what Bond is about. It would also beg the question as to why they just don't create another character instead. There is room for all and any 'race' colour, creed or gender in fiction but they don't have to be called James, Jane or Jamal Bond. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (18 Jul 2017 3.44pm)

Hrolf The Ganger

18 Jul 17 3.42pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

SOE found that female agents aroused a lot less suspicion than their male counterparts.

In reality perhaps but Bond is not real. He is a vehicle by which a film company makes money. Therefore he must appeal to the most profitable markets. If that ever means that he is Black or Asian then that really means that Northern Europeans are at two minutes to midnight.
As far as him being a woman or gay, that would remove a large chunk of what Bond is about. It would also beg the question as to why they just don't create another character instead. There is room for all and any 'race' colour, creed or gender in fiction but they don't have to be called James, Jane or Jamal Bond.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (18 Jul 2017 3.44pm)

Ray in Houston Houston 18 Jul 17 3.57pm
Originally posted by Part Time James Good point, they cast Robert Powell as Jesus Christ and there wasn't as much furore. "Whitewashing" in the entertainment industry has a long and shameful history. Think back to who played the Arabs in "Lawrence of Arabia"; it was Omar Sharif...yes...and Alec Guinness and Anthony Quinn - with Jose Ferrer as a Turk). This year, the lead Asian character from the book of "Ghost in the Shell" was played by Scarlett Johansson, which follows last year's nonsense with Emma Stone playing a half-Asian Hawaiian. Hollywood has been replacing characters - written as people of colour (irony alert) - with white actors since day one. Seeing as Hollywood has already established that the colour of a written character's skin is irrelevant to the movie portrayal of that character, it makes the whole debate about Bond moot. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Ray in Houston

Houston 18 Jul 17 3.57pm

Originally posted by Part Time James

Good point, they cast Robert Powell as Jesus Christ and there wasn't as much furore.

"Whitewashing" in the entertainment industry has a long and shameful history. Think back to who played the Arabs in "Lawrence of Arabia"; it was Omar Sharif...yes...and Alec Guinness and Anthony Quinn - with Jose Ferrer as a Turk). This year, the lead Asian character from the book of "Ghost in the Shell" was played by Scarlett Johansson, which follows last year's nonsense with Emma Stone playing a half-Asian Hawaiian.

Hollywood has been replacing characters - written as people of colour (irony alert) - with white actors since day one. Seeing as Hollywood has already established that the colour of a written character's skin is irrelevant to the movie portrayal of that character, it makes the whole debate about Bond moot.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Ray in Houston Houston 18 Jul 17 3.59pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Arguably James Bond would never, in reality, pass the kind of psychological testing required to obtain that level of clearance. He's a borderline narcissist with anti-social personality disorder - Who exhibits a lack of affect on a clinical level, and homicidal tendencies. So arguably we've already had a disabled Bond. He could always run for President... We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Ray in Houston

Houston 18 Jul 17 3.59pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

So arguably we've already had a disabled Bond.

He could always run for President...

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Hrolf The Ganger 18 Jul 17 4.23pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston "Whitewashing" in the entertainment industry has a long and shameful history. Think back to who played the Arabs in "Lawrence of Arabia"; it was Omar Sharif...yes...and Alec Guinness and Anthony Quinn - with Jose Ferrer as a Turk). This year, the lead Asian character from the book of "Ghost in the Shell" was played by Scarlett Johansson, which follows last year's nonsense with Emma Stone playing a half-Asian Hawaiian. Hollywood has been replacing characters - written as people of colour (irony alert) - with white actors since day one. Seeing as Hollywood has already established that the colour of a written character's skin is irrelevant to the movie portrayal of that character, it makes the whole debate about Bond moot. The bottom line is that they want to make money.

Hrolf The Ganger

18 Jul 17 4.23pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

The bottom line is that they want to make money.

Part Time James 18 Jul 17 4.33pm
I never thought this was my stance but I'd be as happy seeing Will Smith play James Bond as I would seeing Rowan Atkinson play Martin Luther King. Both fantastic actors that would be incredibly entertaining.

Part Time James

18 Jul 17 4.33pm

I never thought this was my stance but I'd be as happy seeing Will Smith play James Bond as I would seeing Rowan Atkinson play Martin Luther King. Both fantastic actors that would be incredibly entertaining.

Ray in Houston Houston 18 Jul 17 4.38pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger The bottom line is that they want to make money. So you're ok with reinventing the race/colour of a written character as long as it makes more money? So much for artistic integrity. FYI, have you noticed the increase in Hollywood movies of China as a locale and/or Chinese characters? It's not an accident. [Link] Based on your stated principle, that money trumps art, I'm sure you're looking forward to Jet Li playing James Bond. We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Ray in Houston

Houston 18 Jul 17 4.38pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

The bottom line is that they want to make money.

So you're ok with reinventing the race/colour of a written character as long as it makes more money? So much for artistic integrity.

FYI, have you noticed the increase in Hollywood movies of China as a locale and/or Chinese characters? It's not an accident. [Link]

Based on your stated principle, that money trumps art, I'm sure you're looking forward to Jet Li playing James Bond.

We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

Part Time James 18 Jul 17 4.41pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston So you're ok with reinventing the race/colour of a written character as long as it makes more money? So much for artistic integrity. FYI, have you noticed the increase in Hollywood movies of China as a locale and/or Chinese characters? It's not an accident. [Link] Based on your stated principle, that money trumps art, I'm sure you're looking forward to Jet Li playing James Bond. I've actually lost track of which side of the argument you are on. The above reads like you are against actors portraying characters of a different traditional ethnicity. I thought earlier you were for it.

Part Time James

18 Jul 17 4.41pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

So you're ok with reinventing the race/colour of a written character as long as it makes more money? So much for artistic integrity.

FYI, have you noticed the increase in Hollywood movies of China as a locale and/or Chinese characters? It's not an accident. [Link]

Based on your stated principle, that money trumps art, I'm sure you're looking forward to Jet Li playing James Bond.

I've actually lost track of which side of the argument you are on. The above reads like you are against actors portraying characters of a different traditional ethnicity. I thought earlier you were for it.

jamiemartin721 Reading 18 Jul 17 4.47pm
Originally posted by Ray in Houston So you're ok with reinventing the race/colour of a written character as long as it makes more money? So much for artistic integrity. FYI, have you noticed the increase in Hollywood movies of China as a locale and/or Chinese characters? It's not an accident. [Link] Based on your stated principle, that money trumps art, I'm sure you're looking forward to Jet Li playing James Bond. James Bond just couldn't compete with Chinese and Hong Kong action cinema. Chow Yun Fat as James Bond, with Andrew Lau directing - Yes f*king please. That sht would be the bomb. I lost interest in action movies after getting into Hong Kong and Wishu. Once you've seen The Stormriders you realise exactly who should have been directing Lord of the Rings! Chocolate might be one the best action movies around, and its lead is a 15 year old autistic character. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]

jamiemartin721

Reading 18 Jul 17 4.47pm

Originally posted by Ray in Houston

So you're ok with reinventing the race/colour of a written character as long as it makes more money? So much for artistic integrity.

FYI, have you noticed the increase in Hollywood movies of China as a locale and/or Chinese characters? It's not an accident. [Link]

Based on your stated principle, that money trumps art, I'm sure you're looking forward to Jet Li playing James Bond.

James Bond just couldn't compete with Chinese and Hong Kong action cinema. Chow Yun Fat as James Bond, with Andrew Lau directing - Yes f**king please. That sh*t would be the bomb.

I lost interest in action movies after getting into Hong Kong and Wishu. Once you've seen The Stormriders you realise exactly who should have been directing Lord of the Rings!

Chocolate might be one the best action movies around, and its lead is a 15 year old autistic character.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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