Marine Le Pen

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Marine Le Pen

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Stirlingsays 13 Apr 22 1.00pm
I think I've explained how proportionality in real time quick stressful events is not an exact science. When some liberally minded people talk about violence I often get the impression that they detached from reality. I often think their opinions would evolve somewhat if they had to work a door in a rough club. They would perhaps then be a little more circumspect in their judgements. Martin was the victim of an attack, not someone who sought one out. Most people disagreed with the verdict at the time, as did I. Nothing since then has changed that. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

13 Apr 22 1.00pm

I think I've explained how proportionality in real time quick stressful events is not an exact science.

When some liberally minded people talk about violence I often get the impression that they detached from reality. I often think their opinions would evolve somewhat if they had to work a door in a rough club. They would perhaps then be a little more circumspect in their judgements.

Martin was the victim of an attack, not someone who sought one out.

Most people disagreed with the verdict at the time, as did I. Nothing since then has changed that.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

georgenorman 13 Apr 22 1.01pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle That's at least a change of tone. Some aren't doing that, though. They are claiming that the "system" let him down, and he should not even have been charged. Disagreeing with a verdict is fine, but without being on the jury and hearing all the evidence is not really that valid, as it relies on what you have seen and heard in the media, some of which whipped up sentiment. The jury heard it all. It's not a change at all, it is precisely what I have been saying all along. As for not being on the jury and hearing all the evidence, neither were you, so you agreeing with the verdicts is not really that valid is it.

georgenorman

13 Apr 22 1.01pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

That's at least a change of tone. Some aren't doing that, though. They are claiming that the "system" let him down, and he should not even have been charged.

Disagreeing with a verdict is fine, but without being on the jury and hearing all the evidence is not really that valid, as it relies on what you have seen and heard in the media, some of which whipped up sentiment. The jury heard it all.

It's not a change at all, it is precisely what I have been saying all along. As for not being on the jury and hearing all the evidence, neither were you, so you agreeing with the verdicts is not really that valid is it.

georgenorman 13 Apr 22 1.03pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle He had a long-running battle with the traveller community. As do many people. Edited by georgenorman (13 Apr 2022 1.04pm)

georgenorman

13 Apr 22 1.03pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

He had a long-running battle with the traveller community.

As do many people.

Edited by georgenorman (13 Apr 2022 1.04pm)

Mapletree Croydon 13 Apr 22 1.18pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I think I've explained how proportionality in real time quick stressful events is not an exact science. When some liberally minded people talk about violence I often get the impression that they detached from reality. I often think their opinions would evolve somewhat if they had to work a door in a rough club. They would perhaps then be a little more circumspect in their judgements. Martin was the victim of an attack, not someone who sought one out. Most people disagreed with the verdict at the time, as did I. Nothing since then has changed that. Martin was the victim of an attack? Wow, you had better let his Counsel know. Martin had an unlicensed pump barrel shotgun, which of course is fine so he could defend himself, multiple times and quickly. And as it was a Winchester he is simply a cowboy after all. His shotgun licence, which would not have covered him for a pump-action, was revoked after he shot a hole in an apple scrumper's vehicle. The prosecution accused him of lying in wait for the burglars and opening fire without warning from close range, in retribution for previous break-ins at his home. He killed a sixteen year old boy who was hit in the back and legs. English law permits a person to kill another in self-defence only if the person defending themself uses no more than "reasonable force". The jury at the trial were told that they had the option of returning a verdict of manslaughter rather than murder, if they thought that Martin "did not intend to kill or cause serious bodily harm", or murder if they thought he had used excessive force. The jurors found Martin guilty of murder by a 10 to 2 majority. Submissions by the defence that Martin had fired in his own defence were rejected by the appeal court. His defence also submitted evidence that Martin was diagnosed with paranoid personality disorder exacerbated by depression and that his paranoia was specifically directed at anyone intruding into his home; he was also diagnosed with Asperger syndrome. This submission was accepted by the Court of Appeal and, on the grounds of diminished responsibility, Martin's murder conviction was replaced by manslaughter carrying a five-year sentence, and his ten-year sentence for wounding Fearon was reduced to three years to run concurrently. So there you have it, all of those people considered the evidence but others know better without having that benefit Maybe it's because Mr Martin was born in Wisbech. He of course had the right to set himself up as Judge, Judy and - quite literally - executioner. By the way, my experience of Travellers has been truly dreadful and these two were nasty petty criminals. Edited by Mapletree (13 Apr 2022 1.19pm)

Mapletree

Croydon 13 Apr 22 1.18pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I think I've explained how proportionality in real time quick stressful events is not an exact science.

Martin was the victim of an attack, not someone who sought one out.

Most people disagreed with the verdict at the time, as did I. Nothing since then has changed that.

Martin was the victim of an attack? Wow, you had better let his Counsel know.

Martin had an unlicensed pump barrel shotgun, which of course is fine so he could defend himself, multiple times and quickly. And as it was a Winchester he is simply a cowboy after all. His shotgun licence, which would not have covered him for a pump-action, was revoked after he shot a hole in an apple scrumper's vehicle.

The prosecution accused him of lying in wait for the burglars and opening fire without warning from close range, in retribution for previous break-ins at his home. He killed a sixteen year old boy who was hit in the back and legs.

English law permits a person to kill another in self-defence only if the person defending themself uses no more than "reasonable force".

The jury at the trial were told that they had the option of returning a verdict of manslaughter rather than murder, if they thought that Martin "did not intend to kill or cause serious bodily harm", or murder if they thought he had used excessive force. The jurors found Martin guilty of murder by a 10 to 2 majority.

Submissions by the defence that Martin had fired in his own defence were rejected by the appeal court.

His defence also submitted evidence that Martin was diagnosed with paranoid personality disorder exacerbated by depression and that his paranoia was specifically directed at anyone intruding into his home; he was also diagnosed with Asperger syndrome.

This submission was accepted by the Court of Appeal and, on the grounds of diminished responsibility, Martin's murder conviction was replaced by manslaughter carrying a five-year sentence, and his ten-year sentence for wounding Fearon was reduced to three years to run concurrently.

So there you have it, all of those people considered the evidence but others know better without having that benefit

Maybe it's because Mr Martin was born in Wisbech. He of course had the right to set himself up as Judge, Judy and - quite literally - executioner.

By the way, my experience of Travellers has been truly dreadful and these two were nasty petty criminals.

Edited by Mapletree (13 Apr 2022 1.19pm)

Stirlingsays 13 Apr 22 1.23pm
Originally posted by Mapletree Martin was the victim of an attack? Wow, you had better let his Counsel know. Martin had an unlicensed pump barrel shotgun, which of course is fine so he could defend himself, multiple times and quickly. And as it was a Winchester he is simply a cowboy after all. His shotgun licence, which would not have covered him for a pump-action, was revoked after he shot a hole in an apple scrumper's vehicle. The prosecution accused him of lying in wait for the burglars and opening fire without warning from close range, in retribution for previous break-ins at his home. He killed a sixteen year old boy who was hit in the back and legs. English law permits a person to kill another in self-defence only if the person defending themself uses no more than "reasonable force". The jury at the trial were told that they had the option of returning a verdict of manslaughter rather than murder, if they thought that Martin "did not intend to kill or cause serious bodily harm", or murder if they thought he had used excessive force. The jurors found Martin guilty of murder by a 10 to 2 majority. Submissions by the defence that Martin had fired in his own defence were rejected by the appeal court. His defence also submitted evidence that Martin was diagnosed with paranoid personality disorder exacerbated by depression and that his paranoia was specifically directed at anyone intruding into his home; he was also diagnosed with Asperger syndrome. This submission was accepted by the Court of Appeal and, on the grounds of diminished responsibility, Martin's murder conviction was replaced by manslaughter carrying a five-year sentence, and his ten-year sentence for wounding Fearon was reduced to three years to run concurrently. So there you have it, all of those people considered the evidence but others know better without having that benefit Maybe it's because Mr Martin was born in Wisbech. He of course had the right to set himself up as Judge, Judy and - quite literally - executioner. By the way, my experience of Travellers has been truly dreadful and these two were nasty petty criminals. Edited by Mapletree (13 Apr 2022 1.19pm) I've already said that this case was discussed heavily on Hol years ago and there's nothing you write here, biased towards the prosecution as it is, that wasn't discussed at the time. As I say, I disagreed with the verdict, as did most of the country. I don't agree with the self defence law as it is framed in this country. I believe it favours the criminal too much. This was also said at the time. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Apr 2022 1.26pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

13 Apr 22 1.23pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

Martin was the victim of an attack? Wow, you had better let his Counsel know.

English law permits a person to kill another in self-defence only if the person defending themself uses no more than "reasonable force".

Submissions by the defence that Martin had fired in his own defence were rejected by the appeal court.

So there you have it, all of those people considered the evidence but others know better without having that benefit

Maybe it's because Mr Martin was born in Wisbech. He of course had the right to set himself up as Judge, Judy and - quite literally - executioner.

By the way, my experience of Travellers has been truly dreadful and these two were nasty petty criminals.

Edited by Mapletree (13 Apr 2022 1.19pm)

I've already said that this case was discussed heavily on Hol years ago and there's nothing you write here, biased towards the prosecution as it is, that wasn't discussed at the time.

As I say, I disagreed with the verdict, as did most of the country.

I don't agree with the self defence law as it is framed in this country. I believe it favours the criminal too much. This was also said at the time.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Apr 2022 1.26pm)

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Mapletree Croydon 13 Apr 22 1.56pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays I've already said that this case was discussed heavily on Hol years ago and there's nothing you write here, biased towards the prosecution as it is, that wasn't discussed at the time. As I say, I disagreed with the verdict, as did most of the country. I don't agree with the self defence law as it is framed in this country. I believe it favours the criminal too much. This was also said at the time. Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Apr 2022 1.26pm) And I say I absolutely trust you to kill people if they are burglars and it is only fair to exact that retribution on them. Your judgement is perfect, in fact Solomon could take advice from you.

Mapletree

Croydon 13 Apr 22 1.56pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I've already said that this case was discussed heavily on Hol years ago and there's nothing you write here, biased towards the prosecution as it is, that wasn't discussed at the time.

As I say, I disagreed with the verdict, as did most of the country.

I don't agree with the self defence law as it is framed in this country. I believe it favours the criminal too much. This was also said at the time.

Edited by Stirlingsays (13 Apr 2022 1.26pm)

And I say I absolutely trust you to kill people if they are burglars and it is only fair to exact that retribution on them. Your judgement is perfect, in fact Solomon could take advice from you.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 13 Apr 22 2.25pm
Originally posted by georgenorman It's not a change at all, it is precisely what I have been saying all along. As for not being on the jury and hearing all the evidence, neither were you, so you agreeing with the verdicts is not really that valid is it. We must agree to disagree about the tone. Yes, I agree with the jury's verdict, but I did follow the case quite closely at the time and then lived in the same town as him. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 13 Apr 22 2.25pm

Originally posted by georgenorman

We must agree to disagree about the tone. Yes, I agree with the jury's verdict, but I did follow the case quite closely at the time and then lived in the same town as him.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 13 Apr 22 2.27pm
Originally posted by georgenorman As do many people. Edited by georgenorman (13 Apr 2022 1.04pm) They do, but they all don't shoot them in the back, do they? For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 13 Apr 22 2.27pm

Originally posted by georgenorman

As do many people.

Edited by georgenorman (13 Apr 2022 1.04pm)

They do, but they all don't shoot them in the back, do they?

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Stirlingsays 13 Apr 22 3.01pm
Originally posted by Mapletree And I say I absolutely trust you to kill people if they are burglars and it is only fair to exact that retribution on them. Your judgement is perfect, in fact Solomon could take advice from you. He has, the latest was Finders Keepers at the three thirty at Kempton. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

13 Apr 22 3.01pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

And I say I absolutely trust you to kill people if they are burglars and it is only fair to exact that retribution on them. Your judgement is perfect, in fact Solomon could take advice from you.

He has, the latest was Finders Keepers at the three thirty at Kempton.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Mapletree Croydon 13 Apr 22 3.10pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays He has, the latest was Finders Keepers at the three thirty at Kempton. Wow. Last raced in 2004 as far as I can see, not sure that was the best advice to offer Solomon

Mapletree

Croydon 13 Apr 22 3.10pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

He has, the latest was Finders Keepers at the three thirty at Kempton.

Wow. Last raced in 2004 as far as I can see, not sure that was the best advice to offer Solomon

Stirlingsays 13 Apr 22 3.24pm
Originally posted by Mapletree Wow. Last raced in 2004 as far as I can see, not sure that was the best advice to offer Solomon You actually looked up the name of the horse. Oh syrup what are you like. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

13 Apr 22 3.24pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

Wow. Last raced in 2004 as far as I can see, not sure that was the best advice to offer Solomon

You actually looked up the name of the horse.

Oh syrup what are you like.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 13 Apr 22 3.57pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays He has, the latest was Finders Keepers at the three thirty at Kempton. Richard Stilgoe at his finest. Red and Blue Army!

ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 13 Apr 22 3.57pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

He has, the latest was Finders Keepers at the three thirty at Kempton.

Richard Stilgoe at his finest.

Red and Blue Army!

Grumbles 13 Apr 22 7.57pm
Originally posted by ASCPFC Would Politicians-wise Sanna Marrin for me.

Grumbles 13 Apr 22 7.57pm

Originally posted by ASCPFC

Would

Politicians-wise Sanna Marrin for me.

Hrolf The Ganger 13 Apr 22 8.11pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle All of which is taken into consideration when deciding whether to prosecute and whether to convict, or not, by the jury. Martin was charged and found guilty. You have a lot of faith in the jury system. I don't share your confidence. I also think that if you invade someone's home, then you run the risk of getting yourself killed. It goes with the territory. I don't believe it is unreasonable to allow a homeowner to defend his home.

Hrolf The Ganger

13 Apr 22 8.11pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

All of which is taken into consideration when deciding whether to prosecute and whether to convict, or not, by the jury.

Martin was charged and found guilty.

You have a lot of faith in the jury system.

I don't share your confidence.

I also think that if you invade someone's home, then you run the risk of getting yourself killed. It goes with the territory.

I don't believe it is unreasonable to allow a homeowner to defend his home.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 13 Apr 22 9.58pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger You have a lot of faith in the jury system. I don't share your confidence. I also think that if you invade someone's home, then you run the risk of getting yourself killed. It goes with the territory. I don't believe it is unreasonable to allow a homeowner to defend his home. Nor does anyone else. Just so long as the "defence" is proportionate to the threat. Shooting someone in the back whilst they are running away doesn't appear to me to match that criteria. Does it to you? I have confidence in the system, both of trial by jury and appeal to a panel of Judges. Nothing is perfect, but I don't know of a better alternative. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 13 Apr 22 9.58pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

You have a lot of faith in the jury system.

I don't share your confidence.

I also think that if you invade someone's home, then you run the risk of getting yourself killed. It goes with the territory.

I don't believe it is unreasonable to allow a homeowner to defend his home.

Nor does anyone else. Just so long as the "defence" is proportionate to the threat. Shooting someone in the back whilst they are running away doesn't appear to me to match that criteria. Does it to you?

I have confidence in the system, both of trial by jury and appeal to a panel of Judges. Nothing is perfect, but I don't know of a better alternative.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

georgenorman 13 Apr 22 10.01pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Nor does anyone else. Just so long as the "defence" is proportionate to the threat. Shooting someone in the back whilst they are running away doesn't appear to me to match that criteria. Does it to you? I have confidence in the system, both of trial by jury and appeal to a panel of Judges. Nothing is perfect, but I don't know of a better alternative. Perhaps he turned his back to prepare some deadly martial arts manoeuvre!

georgenorman

13 Apr 22 10.01pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I have confidence in the system, both of trial by jury and appeal to a panel of Judges. Nothing is perfect, but I don't know of a better alternative.

Perhaps he turned his back to prepare some deadly martial arts manoeuvre!

Nicholas91 The Democratic Republic of Kent 13 Apr 22 10.10pm
Originally posted by georgenorman Perhaps he turned his back to prepare some deadly martial arts manoeuvre! I heard when he turned his back he realised he was wearing a blue and white striped shirt with ‘Dunk’ on the back, so he shot him. Was only minutes later he realised he was trying to burgle his gaff! Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

Nicholas91

The Democratic Republic of Kent 13 Apr 22 10.10pm

Originally posted by georgenorman

Perhaps he turned his back to prepare some deadly martial arts manoeuvre!

I heard when he turned his back he realised he was wearing a blue and white striped shirt with ‘Dunk’ on the back, so he shot him.

Was only minutes later he realised he was trying to burgle his gaff!

Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!!

Mapletree Croydon 13 Apr 22 10.51pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays You actually looked up the name of the horse. Oh syrup what are you like. Thorough?

Mapletree

Croydon 13 Apr 22 10.51pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

You actually looked up the name of the horse.

Oh syrup what are you like.

Thorough?

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 13 Apr 22 11.20pm
Originally posted by georgenorman Perhaps he turned his back to prepare some deadly martial arts manoeuvre! Having seen someone holding a pump action shot gun? I think he was running away, and that you do too. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 13 Apr 22 11.20pm

Originally posted by georgenorman

Perhaps he turned his back to prepare some deadly martial arts manoeuvre!

Having seen someone holding a pump action shot gun?

I think he was running away, and that you do too.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

BlueJay UK 14 Apr 22 12.22am
Marine Le Pen to withdraw France from NATO’s unified military command if she wins - [Link] She frames it as she does, but it comes down to significant Russian money (and consequently influence) in her campaigns many years now. Careful what you wish for. Edited by BlueJay (14 Apr 2022 12.26am)

BlueJay

UK 14 Apr 22 12.22am

Marine Le Pen to withdraw France from NATO’s unified military command if she wins - [Link]

She frames it as she does, but it comes down to significant Russian money (and consequently influence) in her campaigns many years now. Careful what you wish for.

Edited by BlueJay (14 Apr 2022 12.26am)

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