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roy out
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 Willo  South coast - west of Brighton. 11 Jan 21 2.09pm |
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Originally posted by Frickin Saweet
I think it's a load of bs, glosses over the well-made points that do answer the questions posed of 'Roy Outers' and contradicts its own points. But by this stage of the 'discussion', no one is going to come around to the other way of thinking. There are those who want to evolve and move forward, and those who rather tragically settle for where we are currently thinking it's the best we can do. I happen to believe that all supporters wish us to move forward as a club, challenging towards the top of the table and the like, but there are those who are pragmatic and realistic as to where we are as a club at this juncture.
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11 Jan 21 2.22pm| southnorwoodhill 11 Jan 21 2.23pm |
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Originally posted by Willo
I happen to believe that all supporters wish us to move forward as a club, challenging towards the top of the table and the like, but there are those who are pragmatic and realistic as to where we are as a club at this juncture. Oh dear Willo, you let yourself down. Isn't that a little patronising? No one is expecting us to play like prime time Barcelona and I think most comments have been pragmatic and realistic.
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jeeagles  11 Jan 21 2.26pm |
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Originally posted by Willo
I happen to believe that all supporters wish us to move forward as a club, challenging towards the top of the table and the like, but there are those who are pragmatic and realistic as to where we are as a club at this juncture. Or just be a tad more adventurous... Just not to set up against Burnley in the same way we do against Man City. Just something to give everyone a little bit of hope now and then. Anyone saying they want fast attacking beautiful football needs their head examined.
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 11 Jan 21 2.30pm |
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Originally posted by southnorwoodhill
Oh dear Willo, you let yourself down. Isn't that a little patronising? No one is expecting us to play like prime time Barcelona and I think most comments have been pragmatic and realistic. Hence my comment that "there are those who have been pragmatic and realistic". I wasn't advocating that we are expecting our team to play like "Prime time Barcelona" I was merely commenting that supporters would of course like us to be much better placed each season, peering upwards rather than down and playing with more vim and vigour. I certainly never intended to be patronising at all,and fully appreciate that different sides of the debate add to the 'Rich tapestry' of HOL and other such sites.
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| TheBigToePunt 11 Jan 21 2.42pm |
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Originally posted by taylors lovechild
Personally, and as shown in this thread, it is easy to make a compelling case for both sides. From Parish and the board's perspective that makes it an incredibly tough decision to make. Nevertheless, with no noise coming out about a contract extension for Roy it is starting to feel like this next few months will be a long goodbye from the gaffer. The fact Parish tried to hire Howe before, and the fact he has always wanted us to play more progressive football, suggests we are possibly heading towards a summer handover with Roy getting his handshake and watch. Parish was indeed clear on this topic before appointing FDB. He said that us playing negatively all the time couldn't continue forever, and noted that our home record in the premier league up to that point would have seen us relegated. He felt that unless we developed our use of the ball we would always be asking for trouble. Obviously FDB was a debacle, but SP has spoken in more general terms since then of having changed his mind about what a Palace manager should look like, and the importance of prioritising defensive solidity. Personally, and even though he spent a lot more money than Roy only to get Bournemouth relegated, I'd have no objection to Howe if he wants the job. I also saw the sense in approaching Dyche to carry on as we are in terms of style (though he may stay put now). My point has always been that whilst a good few potential managers out there could improve on Roy's playing style, and whilst a smaller group of prospective managers may well be able to match (or maybe beat) Roy's results, I see no reason at all to think there is anyone out there who could do both at the same time. That's the reality.
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 11 Jan 21 2.49pm |
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Originally posted by TheBigToePunt
Parish was indeed clear on this topic before appointing FDB. He said that us playing negatively all the time couldn't continue forever, and noted that our home record in the premier league up to that point would have seen us relegated. He felt that unless we developed our use of the ball we would always be asking for trouble. Obviously FDB was a debacle, but SP has spoken in more general terms since then of having changed his mind about what a Palace manager should look like, and the importance of prioritising defensive solidity. Personally, and even though he spent a lot more money than Roy only to get Bournemouth relegated, I'd have no objection to Howe if he wants the job. I also saw the sense in approaching Dyche to carry on as we are in terms of style (though he may stay put now). My point has always been that whilst a good few potential managers out there could improve on Roy's playing style, and whilst a smaller group of prospective managers may well be able to match (or maybe beat) Roy's results, I see no reason at all to think there is anyone out there who could do both at the same time. That's the reality. If we survive this season with Mr Hodgson at the helm, he will have secured survival for 4 seasons on a relative pittance so he would have met his objectives. Given his record, IF he departs and a new chap is appointed whilst some will be rather elated and see a new beginning, there might well be a degree of perturbance amongst swathes of our support base.
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| TheBigToePunt 11 Jan 21 2.52pm |
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Originally posted by jeeagles
Or just be a tad more adventurous... Just not to set up against Burnley in the same way we do against Man City. Just something to give everyone a little bit of hope now and then. Anyone saying they want fast attacking beautiful football needs their head examined. I agree with a lot of your list, but for me whoever we have ever had as manager, or could ever have, there will be a list like this. It will look different depending on who the manager is, and at different times of their tenure, but the list will exist nonetheless. Swap Hodgson for Pulis or Allardyce and the list will look fundamentally similar. Swap Hodgson for Howe or Potter and the list will look very different indeed, but be just as long.
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| jeeagles 11 Jan 21 3.12pm |
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Originally posted by TheBigToePunt
I agree with a lot of your list, but for me whoever we have ever had as manager, or could ever have, there will be a list like this. It will look different depending on who the manager is, and at different times of their tenure, but the list will exist nonetheless. Swap Hodgson for Pulis or Allardyce and the list will look fundamentally similar. Swap Hodgson for Howe or Potter and the list will look very different indeed, but be just as long. Fundamentally similar, but it would only require someone to address two or three of the issues and most supporters would be happy. Pulis and Allardyce are a bit better at several of the issues on the list, which makes them much better managers. Potter us a terrible appointment. Who in there right mind would appoint a manager of a Championship club with a fairly unremarkable record. FdB proved that success in a smaller European League is no guarantee of any sort of competence in the Premiership. Howe would be a risk. From the discussion about CEO's on another threat. I think there is no shortage of people that could do a better job than Hodgson/Pardew/Pulis/Bruce/Hughes etc on the premier league managerial merry go round. It's just boards avoid recruiting anyone without PL experience, and recruitment of managers is generally poor leading to a closed shop. Plus, you don't often see managers get their side promoted and keep them up. Thomas Frank seems to be the hottest property in the Championship right now.
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 11 Jan 21 3.27pm |
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Originally posted by jeeagles
Fundamentally similar, but it would only require someone to address two or three of the issues and most supporters would be happy. Pulis and Allardyce are a bit better at several of the issues on the list, which makes them much better managers. Potter us a terrible appointment. Who in there right mind would appoint a manager of a Championship club with a fairly unremarkable record. FdB proved that success in a smaller European League is no guarantee of any sort of competence in the Premiership. Howe would be a risk. From the discussion about CEO's on another threat. I think there is no shortage of people that could do a better job than Hodgson/Pardew/Pulis/Bruce/Hughes etc on the premier league managerial merry go round. It's just boards avoid recruiting anyone without PL experience, and recruitment of managers is generally poor leading to a closed shop. Plus, you don't often see managers get their side promoted and keep them up. Thomas Frank seems to be the hottest property in the Championship right now. Fulsome praise to Thomas Frank for what he has and is achieving with his exciting Brentford team.Jolly well done to him. He does of course benefit from an excellent support mechanism at Brentford with 2 Directors of Football, a Head of Recruitment and using analytics as part of a 'Moneyball' approach to recruitment.And my word have they recruited well! Whilst we have upgraded our Academy they have scrapped their academy and keep recruiting players for a relative pittance, players who have progressed to be valued far,far more than their purchase price.
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| Gary St.Andrews Kenley 11 Jan 21 4.02pm |
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Originally posted by YoDougie
Just to jump in on this (I've seen a few posts asking others to name managers to justify why Roy is the best option). I don't know. That's my answer personally. But also, it's not my responsibility to know - and neither is it anyone elses on this site to justify this. I (and probably everyone else) here does not work for Palace with a scouting department and people in specific roles to seek out the best Managerial options. If I did do that, then I would have options. Because I can guarantee that somewhere, there is a range of excellent options that would be fitting for Crystal palace. My point is that, yes discussing options is great, but when someone can't name an option, it doesn't mean that they are wrong in thinking that we should look for a change. Edited by YoDougie (11 Jan 2021 10.44am) I don’t agree with this at all, we don’t seem to find an excellent option do we? We sort of stumble into things and end up with a clueless Dutchman. Roy has done a sterling job and stabilised the ship, but he is getting on now and this job is killing him. My thought was Dyche as the replacement, and I stand by this ....
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| ex hibitionist Hastings 11 Jan 21 4.02pm |
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if we changed the title of this thread to 'Roy out ... in the summer' I reckon there'd be far less disagreement. Pearson or Bilic to take over for me.
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 11 Jan 21 4.12pm |
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Originally posted by ex hibitionist
if we changed the title of this thread to 'Roy out ... in the summer' I reckon there'd be far less disagreement. Pearson or Bilic to take over for me. Bilic wasn't out of work for long.
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Nicholas91  The Democratic Republic of Kent 11 Jan 21 4.34pm |
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Originally posted by Uphill
See how we get on against Arsenal and Man City. If we manage draws in both I'd say 'carry on Roy' but, if we lose both as expected, he should hand in his notice to give a fresh tactically efficient replacement to plot where the 18 points to ensure safety are coming from. Most agree, we have the talent but not a manager capable of using it. I fully expect us to lose both (so if we get any result it will be Xmas all over again!) therefore defeats in those games will be of less concern to me than the actual manner of defeat and the performances, which have been shocking of late.
Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!! |
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| Tickled pink Cornwall 11 Jan 21 4.44pm |
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Originally posted by Uphill
See how we get on against Arsenal and Man City. If we manage draws in both I'd say 'carry on Roy' but, if we lose both as expected, he should hand in his notice to give a fresh tactically efficient replacement to plot where the 18 points to ensure safety are coming from. Most agree, we have the talent but not a manager capable of using it. When I watch our team pass and move I tend to not agree. Mr Hodgson's job has been to just get our club over the line because I feel we have too many players who simply cannot cope when under pressure, we can all see the difference when watching Eze run around with the ball and pass it ..just the same as Zaha can't we so when our manager leaves which could well be the end of this season then that is the time to make all the necessary changes that everyone wants, but the big issue is funds and being able to finance these changes, if the club cannot afford to make these changes then Mr Hodgson continues until we can it is not rocket science.
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| YoDougie London 11 Jan 21 4.54pm |
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Originally posted by TheBigToePunt
Everyone can see the case against Roy. However, having tried to press 'Roy Outers' to: 1. Name a premier league club of our budget level who play the kind of football you want to see at Palace. ...it seems pretty clear that by and large people can't. Southampton are having a little purple patch, but the evidence is overwhelmingly clear: Clubs our size have a far better chance of staying up by playing ‘anti-football’, and a far better chance of getting relegated playing decent football. We haven't had more than one season in the top flight since the early 1990s. For those too young to remember, I assure you: that brilliant team was not one for the football purists. Palace have never played good football and survived in the modern top flight. I repeat: Never. The argument that it is up to the club to find not just a replacement for Roy, but (and people forget this bit) also an upgrade, rather than for the fans to know who that might be, doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. If prospective new managers were well known, then we could name them. We can’t, so there isn’t an obvious one out there. If potential new managers aren’t well known (i.e they’ve not worked in the premier league before) then they are, by definition, a massive gamble. For every left-field appointment that does well there are five or ten that don’t. There are folk who want our current system of mandated government, or even capitalism itself to be dismantled, eloquently (and often accurately) explaining the faults of both systems. Ask them for a better alternative though and they can't, often resorting to:’ Well, anything is better than what we’ve got now’. I’m sorry, but that is the attitude of a child. We are the 16th highest spending club in the league, and can’t spend much more due to FFP. We have a long term plan in place to become a slightly bigger club, but it won’t happen if we get relegated. Anti-football is the most likely way to stay up. Roy is the symptom, not the cause. I disagree with this. We don't need to bring in a household name and if our club do they due diligence and scouting correct, then bringing a manager in who doesn't have Premier League experience isn't a huge gamble. There are many examples of successful managers who didn't have Premier League experience before us who are doing well, namely Wolves, Southampton, Leeds (let's see how this pans out but so far I think they're doing okay) & Aston Villa. So I'm not sure with the above proof you can stand by your point.
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| TheBigToePunt 11 Jan 21 5.15pm |
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Originally posted by YoDougie
I disagree with this. We don't need to bring in a household name and if our club do they due diligence and scouting correct, then bringing a manager in who doesn't have Premier League experience isn't a huge gamble. There are many examples of successful managers who didn't have Premier League experience before us who are doing well, namely Wolves, Southampton, Leeds (let's see how this pans out but so far I think they're doing okay) & Aston Villa. So I'm not sure with the above proof you can stand by your point. Thanks, but in fairness I said that bringing in a manager nobody had heard of was a gamble. I used not having worked in the Premier league as an example of why a coach might be an unknown quantity. Nuno managed huge clubs (Valencia and Porto) before Wolves, whilst Bielsa is a massively well known coach who apart from managing Argentina, Chile and half a dozen big clubs in France, Spain, Italy and South America is also constantly cited as an inspiration by the likes of Guardiola and Pochettino. They're hardly unknowns. Hasenhutl was a bit left field I grant you, and right now it's doing well. But that's one unknown to have done well in this league. The list of unknowns to have failed is far, far longer, hence my observation that going left field is a gamble.
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