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grumpymort US/Thailand/UK 11 Mar 21 12.28am
I see it's still the same old people who if some one does not agree with them they are attacked. Why even continue this thread all it is now is people attacking each other just what the power players wont people turning on each other. People that have been in a system lets say NHS are brainwashed they listen to everything the company states I can see this with some peoples comments I was the same back in the US you are in the system and the training you receive or are told is always the facts. No its not its what suits their agenda. This is why I got out it's a broken system which is nothing to do with the truth or human health. Posting up links to pseudoscience is waste of time ever wonder why their is so many published papers or so called studies its simple $$$ you are forced to do them even when they are offering nothing. This whole covid-19 has turned into a big scam is it real yes does it kill millions no it doesn't People who claim to know science or have research show us covid-19 being the causes of 1 human death (you can't no evidence of causality if you had learnt about human physiology you would know this it's many other factors one massive one being lack of Vitamin D some genetics as well) People did die while infected this is not being denied but it was other factors that was the issue. Look up world death rates for everything you will see they are not extremely high in line with normal times yet we are suppose to be having a world pandemic. Other stats to look at is the ones regarding the lockdowns and now claims the numbers are reducing because of vaccine/lockdowns again lies the real data does not show this the declines had been happening before hand regarding lockdowns. If you are a person who is going to have the vaccine load up on Vitamin D before and after not so called RDA amounts but around 25000iu (do not do this if you have medical issues regarding kidney/liver) also use a good source not cheap pills supermarkets sell with lots of useless fillers oil based ones are recommended type either as an oil or caplet Edited by grumpymort (11 Mar 2021 1.00am) (VPN) - [Link] (Alt VPN) - [Link]
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grumpymort

US/Thailand/UK 11 Mar 21 12.28am

I see it's still the same old people who if some one does not agree with them they are attacked.

Why even continue this thread all it is now is people attacking each other just what the power players wont people turning on each other.

People that have been in a system lets say NHS are brainwashed they listen to everything the company states I can see this with some peoples comments I was the same back in the US you are in the system and the training you receive or are told is always the facts.

No its not its what suits their agenda.

This is why I got out it's a broken system which is nothing to do with the truth or human health.

Posting up links to pseudoscience is waste of time ever wonder why their is so many published papers or so called studies its simple $$$ you are forced to do them even when they are offering nothing.

This whole covid-19 has turned into a big scam is it real yes does it kill millions no it doesn't

People who claim to know science or have research show us covid-19 being the causes of 1 human death (you can't no evidence of causality if you had learnt about human physiology you would know this it's many other factors one massive one being lack of Vitamin D some genetics as well)

People did die while infected this is not being denied but it was other factors that was the issue.

Look up world death rates for everything you will see they are not extremely high in line with normal times yet we are suppose to be having a world pandemic.

Other stats to look at is the ones regarding the lockdowns and now claims the numbers are reducing because of vaccine/lockdowns again lies the real data does not show this the declines had been happening before hand regarding lockdowns.

If you are a person who is going to have the vaccine load up on Vitamin D before and after not so called RDA amounts but around 25000iu (do not do this if you have medical issues regarding kidney/liver) also use a good source not cheap pills supermarkets sell with lots of useless fillers oil based ones are recommended type either as an oil or caplet

Edited by grumpymort (11 Mar 2021 1.00am)

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cryrst The garden of England 11 Mar 21 5.33am
Originally posted by grumpymort I see it's still the same old people who if some one does not agree with them they are attacked. Why even continue this thread all it is now is people attacking each other just what the power players wont people turning on each other. People that have been in a system lets say NHS are brainwashed they listen to everything the company states I can see this with some peoples comments I was the same back in the US you are in the system and the training you receive or are told is always the facts. No its not its what suits their agenda. This is why I got out it's a broken system which is nothing to do with the truth or human health. Posting up links to pseudoscience is waste of time ever wonder why their is so many published papers or so called studies its simple $$$ you are forced to do them even when they are offering nothing. This whole covid-19 has turned into a big scam is it real yes does it kill millions no it doesn't People who claim to know science or have research show us covid-19 being the causes of 1 human death (you can't no evidence of causality if you had learnt about human physiology you would know this it's many other factors one massive one being lack of Vitamin D some genetics as well) People did die while infected this is not being denied but it was other factors that was the issue. Look up world death rates for everything you will see they are not extremely high in line with normal times yet we are suppose to be having a world pandemic. Other stats to look at is the ones regarding the lockdowns and now claims the numbers are reducing because of vaccine/lockdowns again lies the real data does not show this the declines had been happening before hand regarding lockdowns. If you are a person who is going to have the vaccine load up on Vitamin D before and after not so called RDA amounts but around 25000iu (do not do this if you have medical issues regarding kidney/liver) also use a good source not cheap pills supermarkets sell with lots of useless fillers oil based ones are recommended type either as an oil or caplet Edited by grumpymort (11 Mar 2021 1.00am) If the ones that died while infected, wernt infected would they have died. Are you assuming that they would still have died at that same time in their life no matter. I did post that all of us imo have an underlying health issue however small, we are not machines; and covid finds that and bingo. Death in some,a small some yes but still caused by catching this virus. I'm on fultium D already so maybe had some protection from the off.
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cryrst

The garden of England 11 Mar 21 5.33am

Originally posted by grumpymort

I see it's still the same old people who if some one does not agree with them they are attacked.

Why even continue this thread all it is now is people attacking each other just what the power players wont people turning on each other.

No its not its what suits their agenda.

This is why I got out it's a broken system which is nothing to do with the truth or human health.

Posting up links to pseudoscience is waste of time ever wonder why their is so many published papers or so called studies its simple $$$ you are forced to do them even when they are offering nothing.

This whole covid-19 has turned into a big scam is it real yes does it kill millions no it doesn't

People did die while infected this is not being denied but it was other factors that was the issue.

Look up world death rates for everything you will see they are not extremely high in line with normal times yet we are suppose to be having a world pandemic.

Edited by grumpymort (11 Mar 2021 1.00am)

If the ones that died while infected, wernt infected would they have died. Are you assuming that they would still have died at that same time in their life no matter. I did post that all of us imo have an underlying health issue however small, we are not machines; and covid finds that and bingo. Death in some,a small some yes but still caused by catching this virus. I'm on fultium D already so maybe had some protection from the off.

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Eden Eagle Kent 11 Mar 21 6.44am
Originally posted by BlueJay It's a bit of a generalisation no doubt. However since being vaccinated both reduces the chance of contracting covid, spreading it (and seriousness of it when you do) it would make sense that having this check prior would provide a safer environment currently. It should be down to the individual venues but places that don't require being vaccinated would logically attract a significant number of unvaccinated individuals. We have no way of knowing the risk of those individuals, beyond self assessment. There is a significant risk to those who are vulnerable but do not perceive themselves to be from others in the venue. Where some are vaccinated fair enough, they've done their bit, but where they aren't, it doesn't strike me that they're all that interested in others well being. Funnily enough I see the digital tracking that you're more comfortable with as much more of a problem. Governments being able to track peoples movements by the second 24/7, and build a complete profile of who they, who they know, their politics, and so on is much more open to china style 'social credit' abuse down the line than having a check before walking into a pub. Being placed in a digital cage makes us more like zoo animals than being vaccinated ever will. Governments lurch this way and that, and today's upstanding citizen could be tomorrow villain ( [Link] [Link] no doubt there are examples across the political spectrum). It's open to exploitation as those in power (or journalism etc) in the coming decades will have effectively lived online both at home and on the move, and it's certainly possible to attempt to politically and otherwise exploit, control, or paint them in a certain light if they go against the politics of the day. There are of course legitimate uses of these powers too though so it's a difficult balance. Governments take advantage of that and routinely play left and right against one another to push this ongoing erosion of civil liberties through, but it eventually acts to the detriment of everybody. Edited by BlueJay (10 Mar 2021 11.54pm) I have made no reference to not getting vaccinated - people should be free to choose whether they wish for this or not. My concern is exactly what you raise as a potential issue which is the introduction of a Chinese style “social credit” system which a digital ID vaccine pass is the start of this road. For clarity I know that we can be currently tracked via CCTV, phone records, bank transactions etc however this is very different from having to “show your papers” every time you want to go into a shop, cinema, restaurant, football match etc. If you think this is far fetched then look at what is happening in Israel right now. Would you trust Johnson, Hancock and the rest of the Tory government with this sort of power over your lives? If that is a society that people want to live in so be it but it fills me with dread.
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Eden Eagle

Kent 11 Mar 21 6.44am

Originally posted by BlueJay

It's a bit of a generalisation no doubt. However since being vaccinated both reduces the chance of contracting covid, spreading it (and seriousness of it when you do) it would make sense that having this check prior would provide a safer environment currently.

It should be down to the individual venues but places that don't require being vaccinated would logically attract a significant number of unvaccinated individuals. We have no way of knowing the risk of those individuals, beyond self assessment. There is a significant risk to those who are vulnerable but do not perceive themselves to be from others in the venue. Where some are vaccinated fair enough, they've done their bit, but where they aren't, it doesn't strike me that they're all that interested in others well being.

Funnily enough I see the digital tracking that you're more comfortable with as much more of a problem. Governments being able to track peoples movements by the second 24/7, and build a complete profile of who they, who they know, their politics, and so on is much more open to china style 'social credit' abuse down the line than having a check before walking into a pub. Being placed in a digital cage makes us more like zoo animals than being vaccinated ever will.

Governments lurch this way and that, and today's upstanding citizen could be tomorrow villain ( [Link] [Link] no doubt there are examples across the political spectrum). It's open to exploitation as those in power (or journalism etc) in the coming decades will have effectively lived online both at home and on the move, and it's certainly possible to attempt to politically and otherwise exploit, control, or paint them in a certain light if they go against the politics of the day. There are of course legitimate uses of these powers too though so it's a difficult balance. Governments take advantage of that and routinely play left and right against one another to push this ongoing erosion of civil liberties through, but it eventually acts to the detriment of everybody.

Edited by BlueJay (10 Mar 2021 11.54pm)

I have made no reference to not getting vaccinated - people should be free to choose whether they wish for this or not.

My concern is exactly what you raise as a potential issue which is the introduction of a Chinese style “social credit” system which a digital ID vaccine pass is the start of this road.

For clarity I know that we can be currently tracked via CCTV, phone records, bank transactions etc however this is very different from having to “show your papers” every time you want to go into a shop, cinema, restaurant, football match etc.

If you think this is far fetched then look at what is happening in Israel right now.

Would you trust Johnson, Hancock and the rest of the Tory government with this sort of power over your lives?

If that is a society that people want to live in so be it but it fills me with dread.

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steeleye20 Croydon 11 Mar 21 9.10am
On Thursday, Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services (HMICFRS) published its plans for the future of policing protests, two days after the government announced proposed new laws granting more powers to officers and the home secretary. Among other things, the police, crime, sentencing and courts bill will give Priti Patel powers to create laws to define “serious disruption” to communities and organisations, which police can then rely on to impose conditions on protests. This is the post-covid police state, the government will never go back to normal imo.
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steeleye20

Croydon 11 Mar 21 9.10am

On Thursday, Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services (HMICFRS) published its plans for the future of policing protests, two days after the government announced proposed new laws granting more powers to officers and the home secretary.

Among other things, the police, crime, sentencing and courts bill will give Priti Patel powers to create laws to define “serious disruption” to communities and organisations, which police can then rely on to impose conditions on protests.

This is the post-covid police state, the government will never go back to normal imo.

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georgenorman 11 Mar 21 9.32am
Originally posted by steeleye20 On Thursday, Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services (HMICFRS) published its plans for the future of policing protests, two days after the government announced proposed new laws granting more powers to officers and the home secretary. Among other things, the police, crime, sentencing and courts bill will give Priti Patel powers to create laws to define “serious disruption” to communities and organisations, which police can then rely on to impose conditions on protests. This is the post-covid police state, the government will never go back to normal imo. Sounds like they will start policing rampaging mobs - good.
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georgenorman

11 Mar 21 9.32am

Originally posted by steeleye20

This is the post-covid police state, the government will never go back to normal imo.

Sounds like they will start policing rampaging mobs - good.

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Badger11 Beckenham 11 Mar 21 9.50am
Protestors do not have the right to stop the public going about their business. Groups that want to protest legally work with the police agree a route and steward it. The police close off the roads and ensure that protestors and the public are safe. If the protest is not a march but a sit in the police will work with the groups to designate an area where they can safely protest. Groups like XR refuse to co-operate with the police and commit criminal damage due to legal technicalities many of their protestors have got off and gone straight back to causing chaos. Their tactics have changed so the police and the law need to respond the public are entitled to go to work or a doctors appointment. XR claim to speak for the public and yet the green movement averages around 7% of the vote at elections however their feelings are more important than the public's vote. There is nothing new here once upon a time we had the Riot Act that was reformed when it was no longer fit for purpose. This is the law catching up with the reality on the ground. Edited by Badger11 (11 Mar 2021 9.52am) One more point
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Badger11

Beckenham 11 Mar 21 9.50am

Protestors do not have the right to stop the public going about their business.

Groups that want to protest legally work with the police agree a route and steward it. The police close off the roads and ensure that protestors and the public are safe.
If the protest is not a march but a sit in the police will work with the groups to designate an area where they can safely protest.

Groups like XR refuse to co-operate with the police and commit criminal damage due to legal technicalities many of their protestors have got off and gone straight back to causing chaos.

Their tactics have changed so the police and the law need to respond the public are entitled to go to work or a doctors appointment.

XR claim to speak for the public and yet the green movement averages around 7% of the vote at elections however their feelings are more important than the public's vote.

There is nothing new here once upon a time we had the Riot Act that was reformed when it was no longer fit for purpose. This is the law catching up with the reality on the ground.

Edited by Badger11 (11 Mar 2021 9.52am)

One more point

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steeleye20 Croydon 11 Mar 21 9.59am
The government will keep as many of their emergency powers as they can. I don't think we will return to what it was only a year ago.
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steeleye20

Croydon 11 Mar 21 9.59am

The government will keep as many of their emergency powers as they can.

I don't think we will return to what it was only a year ago.

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Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 11 Mar 21 10.27am
Originally posted by Eden Eagle I have made no reference to not getting vaccinated - people should be free to choose whether they wish for this or not. My concern is exactly what you raise as a potential issue which is the introduction of a Chinese style “social credit” system which a digital ID vaccine pass is the start of this road. For clarity I know that we can be currently tracked via CCTV, phone records, bank transactions etc however this is very different from having to “show your papers” every time you want to go into a shop, cinema, restaurant, football match etc. If you think this is far fetched then look at what is happening in Israel right now. Would you trust Johnson, Hancock and the rest of the Tory government with this sort of power over your lives? If that is a society that people want to live in so be it but it fills me with dread. The government will only formalise and regulate what the people as a whole expect. The motivation will come from us. If more of us feel safer knowing that those we are mixing with are vaccinated than those who don't then commercial pressures will determine that identification is required. I see nothing at all to either fear, or dread, in choosing to be safe. Those who fear a lessening of our freedoms are missing the point. We all have freedoms, but they aren't all identical freedoms. Some include being free of the freedoms that others seek. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
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Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 11 Mar 21 10.27am

Originally posted by Eden Eagle

I have made no reference to not getting vaccinated - people should be free to choose whether they wish for this or not.

My concern is exactly what you raise as a potential issue which is the introduction of a Chinese style “social credit” system which a digital ID vaccine pass is the start of this road.

If you think this is far fetched then look at what is happening in Israel right now.

Would you trust Johnson, Hancock and the rest of the Tory government with this sort of power over your lives?

If that is a society that people want to live in so be it but it fills me with dread.

The government will only formalise and regulate what the people as a whole expect. The motivation will come from us. If more of us feel safer knowing that those we are mixing with are vaccinated than those who don't then commercial pressures will determine that identification is required.

I see nothing at all to either fear, or dread, in choosing to be safe.

Those who fear a lessening of our freedoms are missing the point. We all have freedoms, but they aren't all identical freedoms. Some include being free of the freedoms that others seek.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

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Eden Eagle Kent 11 Mar 21 12.18pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle The government will only formalise and regulate what the people as a whole expect. The motivation will come from us. If more of us feel safer knowing that those we are mixing with are vaccinated than those who don't then commercial pressures will determine that identification is required. I see nothing at all to either fear, or dread, in choosing to be safe. Those who fear a lessening of our freedoms are missing the point. We all have freedoms, but they aren't all identical freedoms. Some include being free of the freedoms that others seek. With respect WE I am not missing the point - it is my opinion and I am entitled to hold a different one from you. It is strange how so many left leaning (not literally) people are happy to surrender their personal freedoms and liberties as long as they are “kept safe by the government” People who cannot stand the tories are quick to believe them now that they have their best interest at heart - very odd.
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Eden Eagle

Kent 11 Mar 21 12.18pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I see nothing at all to either fear, or dread, in choosing to be safe.

Those who fear a lessening of our freedoms are missing the point. We all have freedoms, but they aren't all identical freedoms. Some include being free of the freedoms that others seek.

With respect WE I am not missing the point - it is my opinion and I am entitled to hold a different one from you.

It is strange how so many left leaning (not literally) people are happy to surrender their personal freedoms and liberties as long as they are “kept safe by the government”

People who cannot stand the tories are quick to believe them now that they have their best interest at heart - very odd.

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BlueJay UK 11 Mar 21 1.35pm
Originally posted by Eden Eagle I have made no reference to not getting vaccinated - people should be free to choose whether they wish for this or not. My concern is exactly what you raise as a potential issue which is the introduction of a Chinese style “social credit” system which a digital ID vaccine pass is the start of this road. For clarity I know that we can be currently tracked via CCTV, phone records, bank transactions etc however this is very different from having to “show your papers” every time you want to go into a shop, cinema, restaurant, football match etc. If you think this is far fetched then look at what is happening in Israel right now. Would you trust Johnson, Hancock and the rest of the Tory government with this sort of power over your lives? If that is a society that people want to live in so be it but it fills me with dread. I appreciate your view, we just have differences in what is most concerning to us in terms of civil liberties. To my mind what is behind the scenes already is more concerning than actively having to opt into a venue or prove vaccination to get on a flight etc. Edited by BlueJay (11 Mar 2021 1.36pm)
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BlueJay

UK 11 Mar 21 1.35pm

Originally posted by Eden Eagle

I have made no reference to not getting vaccinated - people should be free to choose whether they wish for this or not.

My concern is exactly what you raise as a potential issue which is the introduction of a Chinese style “social credit” system which a digital ID vaccine pass is the start of this road.

If you think this is far fetched then look at what is happening in Israel right now.

Would you trust Johnson, Hancock and the rest of the Tory government with this sort of power over your lives?

If that is a society that people want to live in so be it but it fills me with dread.

I appreciate your view, we just have differences in what is most concerning to us in terms of civil liberties. To my mind what is behind the scenes already is more concerning than actively having to opt into a venue or prove vaccination to get on a flight etc.

Edited by BlueJay (11 Mar 2021 1.36pm)

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BlueJay UK 11 Mar 21 2.17pm
Quote Posting up links to pseudoscience is waste of time ever wonder why their is so many published papers or so called studies its simple $$$ you are forced to do them even when they are offering nothing. At the time you appeared to believe that vaccination had no impact on transmission. The 'pseudoscience' (aka peer reviewed studies or details of) taught you otherwise. Israel is clearly the place to look to as they are ahead of the curve. "Do you believe everything Israel says" was your strange take on that. Quote This whole covid-19 has turned into a big scam is it real yes does it kill millions no it doesn't People who claim to know science or have research show us covid-19 being the causes of 1 human death (you can't no evidence of causality if you had learnt about human physiology you would know this it's many other factors one massive one being lack of Vitamin D some genetics as well) Millions of people have already died and sadly millions more will join them. There are of course multiple reason why people become ill and die but by your logic we'd never put a number on any illness or condition, because multiple factors are always at play. Quote Other stats to look at is the ones regarding the lockdowns and now claims the numbers are reducing because of vaccine/lockdowns again lies the real data does not show this the declines had been happening before hand regarding lockdowns. There are multiple reliable studies by major health groups (already posted) comparing hospitalisations in those vaccinated vs not of comparable age (which makes the lockdown a moot point) which show stark differences between groups. Since being vaccinated both cuts down your chance of contracting covid, getting seriously ill with it and spreading it that should be no surprise. A sweeping and nonsensical 'lies' label on these studies, in favour of your 'real data' is more nonsense. Nobody is arguing that numbers don't drop during lockdown, that's kind of the point. You not being able to understand that it's possible to see the impact of differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated illness in those circumstances is another 'Dr Mort' classic. What is your point here. Are you claiming that vaccination doesn't reduce illness and hospitalisation? It clearly and evidentially does. Edited by BlueJay (11 Mar 2021 2.24pm)
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BlueJay

UK 11 Mar 21 2.17pm

Quote

Posting up links to pseudoscience is waste of time ever wonder why their is so many published papers or so called studies its simple $$$ you are forced to do them even when they are offering nothing.

At the time you appeared to believe that vaccination had no impact on transmission. The 'pseudoscience' (aka peer reviewed studies or details of) taught you otherwise. Israel is clearly the place to look to as they are ahead of the curve. "Do you believe everything Israel says" was your strange take on that.

Quote
This whole covid-19 has turned into a big scam is it real yes does it kill millions no it doesn't

Millions of people have already died and sadly millions more will join them. There are of course multiple reason why people become ill and die but by your logic we'd never put a number on any illness or condition, because multiple factors are always at play.

Quote

There are multiple reliable studies by major health groups (already posted) comparing hospitalisations in those vaccinated vs not of comparable age (which makes the lockdown a moot point) which show stark differences between groups. Since being vaccinated both cuts down your chance of contracting covid, getting seriously ill with it and spreading it that should be no surprise. A sweeping and nonsensical 'lies' label on these studies, in favour of your 'real data' is more nonsense. Nobody is arguing that numbers don't drop during lockdown, that's kind of the point. You not being able to understand that it's possible to see the impact of differences between vaccinated and unvaccinated illness in those circumstances is another 'Dr Mort' classic.

What is your point here. Are you claiming that vaccination doesn't reduce illness and hospitalisation? It clearly and evidentially does.

Edited by BlueJay (11 Mar 2021 2.24pm)

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Stirlingsays Online 11 Mar 21 2.21pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 The government will keep as many of their emergency powers as they can. I don't think we will return to what it was only a year ago. It's a concern that I share with you. I hope we are both mistaken....and I do think their are genuine political voices who will also make these points if liberties aren't returned. Edited by Stirlingsays (11 Mar 2021 2.21pm) 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)
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Stirlingsays Online

11 Mar 21 2.21pm