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Mr Palaceman 16 Mar 15 1.03am
The thing is that IMO you will never be shown anything positive in the media when it comes to Africa. They are too used to showing hungry children with European doctors doing there best to help. Africa is a huge and diverse continent, even on world maps it is made too look smaller than it really is even though it is the second biggest continent in the world, it is always shown as just slightly bigger than South America despite being twice the size. It is made up of many, many different countries, with many different cultures and people of many different races and languages and shades of skin colour but it is all just lumped together. As a continent, many of it's countries are some of the best places in the world to invest. With growth rates for some, three times that of any European country, and many with growth rates higher than China but you would never know it. The reason why China invests so heavily in many African countries is that it is a good investment for them for many reasons, although not all good IMO. When you think of the benefits that many European countries have gained from the slave trade, echos of which can still be felt today in Africa and here, it is no wonder that we are able to call ourselves a developed country. All those pretty buildings you see when you go to Brugge were built on African blood and rubber, in an absolutely horrific manner. I remember reading a report a few years ago where a top London accountancy firm were asked to calculate the financial benefits of the slave trade. That figure came back as around 700 trillion dollars, more than ten times greater than global GDP. That is what African blood, sweat and tears has given to us and on this thread people moan about aid and debate why some and I say some Africa countries are poor. It's like beating someone and stealing their clothes and then arguing over whether to give them back a shoe. Edited by Mr Palaceman (16 Mar 2015 1.09am) "You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead" Stan Laurel
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Mr Palaceman

16 Mar 15 1.03am

The thing is that IMO you will never be shown anything positive in the media when it comes to Africa. They are too used to showing hungry children with European doctors doing there best to help.

Africa is a huge and diverse continent, even on world maps it is made too look smaller than it really is even though it is the second biggest continent in the world, it is always shown as just slightly bigger than South America despite being twice the size.

It is made up of many, many different countries, with many different cultures and people of many different races and languages and shades of skin colour but it is all just lumped together.

As a continent, many of it's countries are some of the best places in the world to invest. With growth rates for some, three times that of any European country, and many with growth rates higher than China but you would never know it. The reason why China invests so heavily in many African countries is that it is a good investment for them for many reasons, although not all good IMO.

When you think of the benefits that many European countries have gained from the slave trade, echos of which can still be felt today in Africa and here, it is no wonder that we are able to call ourselves a developed country. All those pretty buildings you see when you go to Brugge were built on African blood and rubber, in an absolutely horrific manner.

I remember reading a report a few years ago where a top London accountancy firm were asked to calculate the financial benefits of the slave trade. That figure came back as around 700 trillion dollars, more than ten times greater than global GDP.

That is what African blood, sweat and tears has given to us and on this thread people moan about aid and debate why some and I say some Africa countries are poor.

It's like beating someone and stealing their clothes and then arguing over whether to give them back a shoe.

Edited by Mr Palaceman (16 Mar 2015 1.09am)

"You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead"

Stan Laurel

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legaleagle 16 Mar 15 9.25am
Quote matt_himself at 15 Mar 2015 5.07pm May I play Devils Advocate and ask what is the point of having the best literacy rate in Africa if your country is one of the most corrupt places on Earth, where ownership of property is dictated by the whim of the ruling junta and where said activities have driven the economy and society into the ground? I don't support minority rule in any country. However, i support the concept of a meritocracy and blaming all the woes of a country or people on colonialism seems to be a kop out. Look at Singapore? They have been independent as long as many African States and have created wealth, employment and a system that rejects corruption. You seem to blame everything on whitey. Why do you do that when there are credible examples of former colonies throwing off the yoke of oppression and embracing change? Zimbabwe hasn't and won't until it faces some brutal, home truths. If you look,you will see I condemned Mugabe's "junta".I can't stand the guy and his "problems" certainly can't all be blamed on colonialism.But,I wasn't doing so.Equally,there is no reason not to recognise some achievements there in the past 30 years,such as in relation to adult literacy which helps give rise to conditions allowing for more of a meritocracy when Mugabe goes,laudable regardless of what Mugabe's regime has become. In terms of the economy, obviously its been badly affected by sanctions (which I supported overall) in place by the EU and others.In the case of the EU until December 2014.The whole point of the sanctions was to put economic pressure on the regime to change from outside,but the economy has suffered as a result so that needs to be taken into account when people suggest the state of the economy means blacks can't adequately run things in Zimbabwe. My comments were in a context of responding to a poster who suggested blacks are inherently not capable of ruling a country as well as whites. I was writing solely about central Africa only since that was the specific example he had used and he was focusing on the supposed inadequacies of black people in Africa.I was not making the point that anything associated with white people's actions was inherently bad and the sole cause of any issues today.Rather that it was wrong to conclude from Zimbabwe's situation today that things were better overall in the "good old days" there and thus that white people were inherently better than blacks at running the country. Singapore is indeed an interesting example.Very high economic growth and lack of overt corruption.But a small clique (simplistically put,the family and close associates of Lee Kuan Yew) having run the country in a very authoritarian closed way for 50 years with tactics such as using the libel laws inappropriately to bankrupt opposition leaders and clamp down on any meaningful opposition to their one party rule.I had a case involving a senior figure there and the use of libel laws against mild criticism of the elite. The basic advice from the local lawyer was just give in and pay up since there was no chance that the defence available as a matter of law would have any hope of being upheld by the local courts if this would displease the ruling party... Illegal there to buy or use chewing gum unless obtained with a prescription! The Singapore example shows that it would be facile to argue that the locals can't "rule" their country/city state as well/better than the colonialists by definition because of their race.Also,that the negative undemocratic aspects of present rule in a country/city state,don't change that underlying proposition. Edited by Moose (17 Mar 2015 9.56am)
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legaleagle

16 Mar 15 9.25am

Quote matt_himself at 15 Mar 2015 5.07pm

May I play Devils Advocate and ask what is the point of having the best literacy rate in Africa if your country is one of the most corrupt places on Earth, where ownership of property is dictated by the whim of the ruling junta and where said activities have driven the economy and society into the ground?

I don't support minority rule in any country. However, i support the concept of a meritocracy and blaming all the woes of a country or people on colonialism seems to be a kop out. Look at Singapore? They have been independent as long as many African States and have created wealth, employment and a system that rejects corruption. You seem to blame everything on whitey. Why do you do that when there are credible examples of former colonies throwing off the yoke of oppression and embracing change? Zimbabwe hasn't and won't until it faces some brutal, home truths.

If you look,you will see I condemned Mugabe's "junta".I can't stand the guy and his "problems" certainly can't all be blamed on colonialism.But,I wasn't doing so.Equally,there is no reason not to recognise some achievements there in the past 30 years,such as in relation to adult literacy which helps give rise to conditions allowing for more of a meritocracy when Mugabe goes,laudable regardless of what Mugabe's regime has become.

In terms of the economy, obviously its been badly affected by sanctions (which I supported overall) in place by the EU and others.In the case of the EU until December 2014.The whole point of the sanctions was to put economic pressure on the regime to change from outside,but the economy has suffered as a result so that needs to be taken into account when people suggest the state of the economy means blacks can't adequately run things in Zimbabwe.

My comments were in a context of responding to a poster who suggested blacks are inherently not capable of ruling a country as well as whites. I was writing solely about central Africa only since that was the specific example he had used and he was focusing on the supposed inadequacies of black people in Africa.I was not making the point that anything associated with white people's actions was inherently bad and the sole cause of any issues today.Rather that it was wrong to conclude from Zimbabwe's situation today that things were better overall in the "good old days" there and thus that white people were inherently better than blacks at running the country.

Singapore is indeed an interesting example.Very high economic growth and lack of overt corruption.But a small clique (simplistically put,the family and close associates of Lee Kuan Yew) having run the country in a very authoritarian closed way for 50 years with tactics such as using the libel laws inappropriately to bankrupt opposition leaders and clamp down on any meaningful opposition to their one party rule.I had a case involving a senior figure there and the use of libel laws against mild criticism of the elite. The basic advice from the local lawyer was just give in and pay up since there was no chance that the defence available as a matter of law would have any hope of being upheld by the local courts if this would displease the ruling party...

Illegal there to buy or use chewing gum unless obtained with a prescription!

The Singapore example shows that it would be facile to argue that the locals can't "rule" their country/city state as well/better than the colonialists by definition because of their race.Also,that the negative undemocratic aspects of present rule in a country/city state,don't change that underlying proposition.

Edited by Moose (17 Mar 2015 9.56am)

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Johnny Eagles berlin 16 Mar 15 9.27am
Quote Mr Palaceman at 16 Mar 2015 1.03am Africa is a huge and diverse continent, even on world maps it is made too look smaller than it really is even though it is the second biggest continent in the world, it is always shown as just slightly bigger than South America despite being twice the size. ] You'll approve of the Peters World Map then. [Link] Edited by Johnny Eagles (16 Mar 2015 9.29am) ...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...
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Johnny Eagles

berlin 16 Mar 15 9.27am

Quote Mr Palaceman at 16 Mar 2015 1.03am

You'll approve of the Peters World Map then.

[Link]

Edited by Johnny Eagles (16 Mar 2015 9.29am)

...we must expand...get more pupils...so that the knowledge will spread...

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legaleagle 16 Mar 15 9.45am
The Aussie map of the world can also be interesting in terms of a different perspective from the traditional Euro-centric way of seeing the world,with Europe is a central position.. [Link] Edited by legaleagle (16 Mar 2015 9.46am)
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legaleagle

16 Mar 15 9.45am

The Aussie map of the world can also be interesting in terms of a different perspective from the traditional Euro-centric way of seeing the world,with Europe is a central position..

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (16 Mar 2015 9.46am)

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jamiemartin721 Reading 16 Mar 15 11.08am
Quote Hoof Hearted at 14 Mar 2015 9.20pm Quote legaleagle at 14 Mar 2015 11.26am Quote Hoof Hearted at 14 Mar 2015 10.40am You just have to look at places like Zimbabwe. When it was colonial Rhodesia it prospered by exporting copper and had a great railway system. Now the railway is fcuked both financially and physically and only survives on handouts from China (in return for the major slice of the copper no doubt). It may have been un PC by the poster to suggest "blacks" always fcuk up... but the state of Africa kind of backs this statement up unfortunately... corruption, greed, incompetence..... Um Hoof,two points (only two because the proposition that black people screw up as a result of being black whereas white people don't since they are white,advanced on his thread,is too too insane to get further engaged with). 1.The copper was/is in the British colony of Northern Rhodesia now known as Zambia,as opposed to the British territory of Southern Rhodesia now known as Zimbabwe,so at least try to have a basic grasp of facts if you are going to advance an argument tending towards a proposition of inherent racial inferiority. 2.Take a look at places like Moldova,Uzbekistan. Note the health of the economies,their corruption etc,the extent to which their rulers f-up. and then take a look at the colour of the skin of the people that rule in those states.Poverty,corruption and repression do not stem from skin colour/race.The logic of your proposition is that we shouldn't vote for black politicians here due to inherent racial lesser ability to "govern" than those of a superior at governing white race.We are indeed headed back to the dark ages (no pun intended). Edited by legaleagle (14 Mar 2015 4.45pm) Zambia/Zimbabwe........ North/South Rhodesia.... Makes little difference - it was an example of a major fcuk up that wouldn't have occurred under colonial rule. I don't think all black people are inferior but in Africa there are a lot of greedy/corrupt/incompetent people (who just happen to be black) now running most countries and sadly running them into the ground. The worst of the lot is Mugabe. As for your last point I'd rather vote for that Chukka fella than Balls/Miliband or Prescott. But he's had the benefit of our education system. Arguably colonialism was just a different form of corrupt rule, in which a foreign nation exploited the resources of a third world nation towards its own profits and ends. The problem, is often as not, those that overthrow aren't any more altruistic than those they replace and come to power having to make 'suicide' economic policy. As seen in South Africa and Zimbabwe, the implementation of 'prejudice' policy to replace prejudiced policy, simply results in a consequential exodus of your 'skilled and knowledged' workers that are essential to your economic well being. Sudden changes rarely end well. They need to be graduated and controlled towards a goal, social engineering isn't something you can manage if you just jenga out whole sections of society. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 16 Mar 15 11.08am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 14 Mar 2015 9.20pm

Quote legaleagle at 14 Mar 2015 11.26am

Quote Hoof Hearted at 14 Mar 2015 10.40am

You just have to look at places like Zimbabwe.

When it was colonial Rhodesia it prospered by exporting copper and had a great railway system.

Now the railway is fcuked both financially and physically and only survives on handouts from China (in return for the major slice of the copper no doubt).

It may have been un PC by the poster to suggest "blacks" always fcuk up... but the state of Africa kind of backs this statement up unfortunately... corruption, greed, incompetence.....

Um Hoof,two points (only two because the proposition that black people screw up as a result of being black whereas white people don't since they are white,advanced on his thread,is too too insane to get further engaged with).

1.The copper was/is in the British colony of Northern Rhodesia now known as Zambia,as opposed to the British territory of Southern Rhodesia now known as Zimbabwe,so at least try to have a basic grasp of facts if you are going to advance an argument tending towards a proposition of inherent racial inferiority.

2.Take a look at places like Moldova,Uzbekistan. Note the health of the economies,their corruption etc,the extent to which their rulers f-up. and then take a look at the colour of the skin of the people that rule in those states.Poverty,corruption and repression do not stem from skin colour/race.The logic of your proposition is that we shouldn't vote for black politicians here due to inherent racial lesser ability to "govern" than those of a superior at governing white race.We are indeed headed back to the dark ages (no pun intended).

Edited by legaleagle (14 Mar 2015 4.45pm)

Zambia/Zimbabwe........ North/South Rhodesia....

Makes little difference - it was an example of a major fcuk up that wouldn't have occurred under colonial rule.

I don't think all black people are inferior but in Africa there are a lot of greedy/corrupt/incompetent people (who just happen to be black) now running most countries and sadly running them into the ground.

The worst of the lot is Mugabe.

As for your last point I'd rather vote for that Chukka fella than Balls/Miliband or Prescott.

But he's had the benefit of our education system.

Arguably colonialism was just a different form of corrupt rule, in which a foreign nation exploited the resources of a third world nation towards its own profits and ends.

The problem, is often as not, those that overthrow aren't any more altruistic than those they replace and come to power having to make 'suicide' economic policy.

As seen in South Africa and Zimbabwe, the implementation of 'prejudice' policy to replace prejudiced policy, simply results in a consequential exodus of your 'skilled and knowledged' workers that are essential to your economic well being.

Sudden changes rarely end well. They need to be graduated and controlled towards a goal, social engineering isn't something you can manage if you just jenga out whole sections of society.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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reborn 16 Mar 15 12.49pm
At least they are doing something, more than 99% of people on this board, including the OP? I'd gladly be disproved of that by the way. My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs
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reborn 16 Mar 15 12.49pm

At least they are doing something, more than 99% of people on this board, including the OP?

I'd gladly be disproved of that by the way.

My username has nothing to do with my religious beliefs

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imbored UK 16 Mar 15 1.21pm
Quote reborn at 16 Mar 2015 12.49pm At least they are doing something, more than 99% of people on this board, including the OP? I'd gladly be disproved of that by the way. Exactly. I've worked with charities and it's never those doing charity work that slag off people raising money for other causes. So you wind up with those not helping their neighbour or anyone elses for that matter, moaning about amazing and often life saving efforts.
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imbored

UK 16 Mar 15 1.21pm

Quote reborn at 16 Mar 2015 12.49pm

At least they are doing something, more than 99% of people on this board, including the OP?

I'd gladly be disproved of that by the way.

Exactly. I've worked with charities and it's never those doing charity work that slag off people raising money for other causes. So you wind up with those not helping their neighbour or anyone elses for that matter, moaning about amazing and often life saving efforts.

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nickgusset Shizzlehurst 16 Mar 15 3.43pm
Jamie... [Link]
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nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 16 Mar 15 3.43pm

Jamie... [Link]

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Stuk Top half 16 Mar 15 4.02pm
Quote legaleagle at 16 Mar 2015 9.45am The Aussie map of the world can also be interesting in terms of a different perspective from the traditional Euro-centric way of seeing the world,with Europe is a central position.. [Link] Edited by legaleagle (16 Mar 2015 9.46am) It's not Europe that's central, it's Britain, and the reason is the Prime meridian. Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 16 Mar 15 4.02pm

Quote legaleagle at 16 Mar 2015 9.45am

The Aussie map of the world can also be interesting in terms of a different perspective from the traditional Euro-centric way of seeing the world,with Europe is a central position..

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (16 Mar 2015 9.46am)

It's not Europe that's central, it's Britain, and the reason is the Prime meridian.

Optimistic as ever

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Superfly The sun always shines in Catford 16 Mar 15 4.19pm
Quote Stuk at 16 Mar 2015 4.02pm Quote legaleagle at 16 Mar 2015 9.45am The Aussie map of the world can also be interesting in terms of a different perspective from the traditional Euro-centric way of seeing the world,with Europe is a central position.. [Link] Edited by legaleagle (16 Mar 2015 9.46am) It's not Europe that's central, it's Britain, and the reason is the Prime meridian. Is that the ruling that the Enterprise can't meddle in other alien civilisations (except where it suits the plot?) Lend me a Tenor 31 May to 3 June 2017 John McIntosh Arts Centre London Oratory School SW6 1RX with Superfly in the chorus [Link]
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Superfly

The sun always shines in Catford 16 Mar 15 4.19pm

Quote Stuk at 16 Mar 2015 4.02pm

Quote legaleagle at 16 Mar 2015 9.45am

The Aussie map of the world can also be interesting in terms of a different perspective from the traditional Euro-centric way of seeing the world,with Europe is a central position..

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (16 Mar 2015 9.46am)

It's not Europe that's central, it's Britain, and the reason is the Prime meridian.

Is that the ruling that the Enterprise can't meddle in other alien civilisations (except where it suits the plot?)

Lend me a Tenor

31 May to 3 June 2017

John McIntosh Arts Centre
London Oratory School
SW6 1RX

with Superfly in the chorus
[Link]

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Stuk Top half 16 Mar 15 4.26pm
Quote Superfly at 16 Mar 2015 4.19pm Quote Stuk at 16 Mar 2015 4.02pm Quote legaleagle at 16 Mar 2015 9.45am The Aussie map of the world can also be interesting in terms of a different perspective from the traditional Euro-centric way of seeing the world,with Europe is a central position.. [Link] Edited by legaleagle (16 Mar 2015 9.46am) It's not Europe that's central, it's Britain, and the reason is the Prime meridian. Is that the ruling that the Enterprise can't meddle in other alien civilisations (except where it suits the plot?) It never stopped Captain Kirk! Optimistic as ever
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Stuk

Top half 16 Mar 15 4.26pm

Quote Superfly at 16 Mar 2015 4.19pm

Quote Stuk at 16 Mar 2015 4.02pm

Quote legaleagle at 16 Mar 2015 9.45am

The Aussie map of the world can also be interesting in terms of a different perspective from the traditional Euro-centric way of seeing the world,with Europe is a central position..

[Link]

Edited by legaleagle (16 Mar 2015 9.46am)

It's not Europe that's central, it's Britain, and the reason is the Prime meridian.

Is that the ruling that the Enterprise can't meddle in other alien civilisations (except where it suits the plot?)

It never stopped Captain Kirk!

Optimistic as ever

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sitdownstandup 16 Mar 15 8.12pm
Quote Mr Palaceman at 16 Mar 2015 1.03am The thing is that IMO you will never be shown anything positive in the media when it comes to Africa. They are too used to showing hungry children with European doctors doing there best to help. Africa is a huge and diverse continent, even on world maps it is made too look smaller than it really is even though it is the second biggest continent in the world, it is always shown as just slightly bigger than South America despite being twice the size. It is made up of many, many different countries, with many different cultures and people of many different races and languages and shades of skin colour but it is all just lumped together. As a continent, many of it's countries are some of the best places in the world to invest. With growth rates for some, three times that of any European country, and many with growth rates higher than China but you would never know it. The reason why China invests so heavily in many African countries is that it is a good investment for them for many reasons, although not all good IMO. When you think of the benefits that many European countries have gained from the slave trade, echos of which can still be felt today in Africa and here, it is no wonder that we are able to call ourselves a developed country. All those pretty buildings you see when you go to Brugge were built on African blood and rubber, in an absolutely horrific manner. I remember reading a report a few years ago where a top London accountancy firm were asked to calculate the financial benefits of the slave trade. That figure came back as around 700 trillion dollars, more than ten times greater than global GDP. That is what African blood, sweat and tears has given to us and on this thread people moan about aid and debate why some and I say some Africa countries are poor. It's like beating someone and stealing their clothes and then arguing over whether to give them back a shoe. Edited by Mr Palaceman (16 Mar 2015 1.09am) A well written, thoughtful and insightful post. Well done palaceman. Man is the most insane species. He worships an invisible God and destroys a visible Nature. Unaware that this Nature he’s destroying is this God he’s worshipping. Hubert Reeves
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sitdownstandup

16 Mar 15 8.12pm

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Quote Mr Palaceman at 16 Mar 2015 1.03am

The thing is that IMO you will never be shown anything positive in the media when it comes to Africa. They are too used to showing hungry children with European doctors doing there best to help.

It is made up of many, many different countries, with many different cultures and people of many different races and languages and shades of skin colour but it is all just lumped together.

That is what African blood, sweat and tears has given to us and on this thread people moan about aid and debate why some and I say some Africa countries are poor.

It's like beating someone and stealing their clothes and then arguing over whether to give them back a shoe.

Edited by Mr Palaceman (16 Mar 2015 1.09am)

A well written, thoughtful and insightful post. Well done palaceman.

Man is the most insane species. He worships an invisible God and destroys a visible Nature. Unaware that this Nature he’s destroying is this God he’s worshipping.

Hubert Reeves

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