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W12 11 Dec 18 4.14pm

And doesn’t a second referendum make any future referendum simply worthless?

 

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View DANGERCLOSE's Profile DANGERCLOSE Online Flag london 11 Dec 18 4.21pm Send a Private Message to DANGERCLOSE Add DANGERCLOSE as a friend

HARD BREXIT NOW! deliver the will of the people.

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 11 Dec 18 4.22pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Pussay Patrol

It's why we should have a people's vote

The Brexit deal satisfies no one and solves nothing.
It shows that what was promised can't be delivered.
It's a much worse deal than the one we've already got in the EU.
If approved it means Brexit will go on forever.

We don't have to follow the result if it brings self harm, everyone agrees on both sides this is not what we voted for so we should have a vote on exactly what people want in full view of the possible and actual outcomes and try and deliver a deal that is the best interests of everyone

Reading this crap truly makes me sick to my stomach.

Nothing wrong with Brexit. Just the b******s who are negotiating it.

People's vote. We had a people's vote and people voted for Brexit.
They did not vote on the details. That is for politicians to deal with. Right now most of them reject the so called deal.

You have no idea what will be best for everyone. But Brexiters know what they voted for. Out of Europe NOW.
Out of the coming US of E where we are Hawaii.
Out of unelected control of our laws and borders.
Out of huge payments every year.
Out of the corrupt world of European politics.

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 11 Dec 18 4.24pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Calling it 'the people's vote' says it all. It's like saying that those who voted Leave the first time don't really count as people. They are 'The others'.

Sickening.

Quite. I have had 'words' with these 'Peoples vote' campaigners and they are truly deranged plus incredibly ignorant of how the EU actually operates. Absolutely no concept of the democratic deficiencies that exist within it.

And unable to even offer me a single reason why, if they get their way, I should have any faith what so ever that this would be the final vote on the issue. Because why should the result be anymore valid than the first?

Merely the holding of it will be enough to plunge this country into mayhem, let alone the fall out from the result, especially in light of say a mass boycott by Leavers, which I would support whole-heartedly, so that any result is immediately hampered by a much lower turn out.

I geuninely cannot comprehend why anybody would think another Leave/Remain vote achieves anything. Merely makes things even worse.

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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View Willo's Profile Willo Flag South coast - west of Brighton. 11 Dec 18 4.27pm Send a Private Message to Willo Add Willo as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

You need to get over it.

How many times does it have to be said?

Any second referendum will trigger lies, propaganda, misleading figures, agenda driven rhetoric etc just like the first one.
What you really mean is that your arrogance makes you think that the majority got it wrong the first time because they weren't as clever as you.

Calling it 'the people's vote' says it all. It's like saying that those who voted Leave the first time don't really count as people. They are 'The others'.

Sickening.


Indeed what should be the question posed ?

A binary choice between the May deal or No deal ?
The May deal or No Brexit ?
No deal or no Brexit ?
Based on the fact that 'Leave' won the referendum, the first option would ensure we actually leave so perhaps this is the one which should prevail !
Suspect there would be protracted debate apropos the question that should be asked !!!!

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 11 Dec 18 4.38pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Cucking Funt

How is anyone's understanding different to what it was at the time of the 2016 referendum? The arguments are exactly the same. The remain-voting establishment ramping up the scare stories doesn't alter anything. The one reason why the whole thing has fallen into chaos is because of the reluctance and piss-awful negotiation skills of May and her cabinet in implementing the 2016 result. A remainer Prime Minister clearly out to frustrate the process.

You want to re-run a race that's already been run and won. I don't buy it.

But why not? How is it any less democratic? If opinions remain the same then fine. There would be no doubt.

If opinions have changed over the last two years, due to reasons that could include further information coming to light, changing demographics, changing economic outlook or changing global politics, surely it is also appropriate to find that out. I say again, it isn't the same group of voters any more. And I would be willing to guess many that didn't vote first time would vote this time

Looking at it the other way around, if you don't have another vote you disenfranchise loads of people. Where is the democracy in that when these are the people with the longest term of skin in the game?

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 11 Dec 18 4.42pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

And unable to even offer me a single reason why, if they get their way, I should have any faith what so ever that this would be the final vote on the issue. Because why should the result be anymore valid than the first?

Because it would be contemporaneous, not a vote from two years ago.

In any case I think it is blindingly obvious that if two votes within two years have the same outcome, it is genuinely the case that people wish this.

The last vote did of course coincide with other political issues and a mass groundswell of opinion on issues not directly linked to the vote.

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 11 Dec 18 4.43pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Willo


Indeed what should be the question posed ?

A binary choice between the May deal or No deal ?
The May deal or No Brexit ?
No deal or no Brexit ?
Based on the fact that 'Leave' won the referendum, the first option would ensure we actually leave so perhaps this is the one which should prevail !
Suspect there would be protracted debate apropos the question that should be asked !!!!


There should be no question of remain or leave.
That has been decided.
Then you are left with asking the public what they think about a deal which 90% of them will not understand. That is nonsense.
We are in unknown territory where no one is an expert. All we hear is speculation and agenda driven rhetoric. No certainty exists but Europe will not want a no deal situation and as far as I'm concerned, the negotiation is not over, despite the hard line from Brussels.

Any final deal must satisfy the basic expectations of Brexiters or there can be no deal. Any attempt to avoid or water down Brexit will end in chaos.

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 11 Dec 18 4.43pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

You need to get over it.

How many times does it have to be said?

Any second referendum will trigger lies, propaganda, misleading figures, agenda driven rhetoric etc just like the first one.
What you really mean is that your arrogance makes you think that the majority got it wrong the first time because they weren't as clever as you.

Calling it 'the people's vote' says it all. It's like saying that those who voted Leave the first time don't really count as people. They are 'The others'.

Sickening.

The first vote was the Tory Party internal politics vote. I don't think anyone can miss that point.

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 11 Dec 18 4.44pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

But why not? How is it any less democratic? If opinions remain the same then fine. There would be no doubt.

If opinions have changed over the last two years, due to reasons that could include further information coming to light, changing demographics, changing economic outlook or changing global politics, surely it is also appropriate to find that out. I say again, it isn't the same group of voters any more. And I would be willing to guess many that didn't vote first time would vote this time

Looking at it the other way around, if you don't have another vote you disenfranchise loads of people. Where is the democracy in that when these are the people with the longest term of skin in the game?

So why not have a vote every couple of years then? If you are unwilling to accept the validity of the first vote, why should anybody who voted Leave the first time around accept the validity of any further votes?

Forget Leave or Remain. Ask yourself why should somebody like me actually make the effort to vote again on this issue? I did so on June 23rd in absolute good faith that my vote would be counted and the result enacted. Why should I believe that this time, it really, really, really counts?

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 11 Dec 18 4.44pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger


There should be no question of remain or leave.
That has been decided.
Then you are left with asking the public what they think about a deal which 90% of them will not understand. That is nonsense.
We are in unknown territory where no one is an expert. All we hear is speculation and agenda driven rhetoric. No certainty exists but Europe will not want a no deal situation and as far as I'm concerned, the negotiation is not over, despite the hard line from Brussels.

Any final deal must satisfy the basic expectations of Brexiters or there can be no deal. Any attempt to avoid or water down Brexit will end in chaos.

Wow, people don't understand for what they would be voting yet understood it two years ago. You ever been a figure skater?

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 11 Dec 18 4.47pm Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

So why not have a vote every couple of years then? If you are unwilling to accept the validity of the first vote, why should anybody who voted Leave the first time around accept the validity of any further votes?

Forget Leave or Remain. Ask yourself why should somebody like me actually make the effort to vote again on this issue? I did so on June 23rd in absolute good faith that my vote would be counted and the result enacted. Why should I believe that this time, it really, really, really counts?

Because when we are out we are out, no votes left. Could not easily re-enter. This is a once in a life time event.

Why should you bother? Don't be totally ridiculous. Why bother voting at general elections then, move to Turkey and there will be no point. Vote once and it's over.

Your vote did count, albeit it was a non-binding vote. It is now time to ratify your decision. It is clear the UK wants to leave so give the politicians the mandate to finish the job.

 

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