The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 SW19 CPFC  Addiscombe West 19 Dec 18 2.47pm |
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Originally posted by Painter
Not quite sure what remainers want, but the vote was to leave the EU in total. This is obviously not what the political class wanted or expected to have to deliver. They have been desperately trying to water down ever since. To be clear, that's your interpretation of the option on the ballot paper. It did not say 'Leave the EU in totality'. Hence the mess of opinion on this subject. It was a terribly worded question to begin with. Also, again, give me an example of when a lack of majority has not resulted in a compromise agreement, piece of legislation etc. If there was a majority of leave MPs in government then there would be less compromise occurring. I'm afraid that is that.
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| dannyboy1978 19 Dec 18 3.04pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
Er, have you read it? From your own article... 'While Gisela Stuart’s claim that for every £2 put in, the UK gets £1 is partially true, if based on 2014 figures – and the amount does vary year by year. Michael Gove’s reassertion that the UK is paying £350m a week to Brussels omits the rebate the UK receives on its contribution to the EU budget. His assertion that our contribution is going to go up and up and up is contradicted by research from the Office of Budget Responsibility. Beyond this, such a focus on these numbers fails to put into context the small scale of EU budget transfers, when compared with UK national expenditure. UK total managed expenditure in 2013-14 was £714 billion, and in 2014-15 £732 billion. So the UK’s net contribution to the EU budget is thus less than 1.5% of total government spending.' The fact check broadly supports the claim that in the past, the UK has received £1 for every £2 sent to Brussels. But most other analysts have concluded that this – and the claim that the UK sends £350m a week to Brussels – is not the best way to present the figures. The £19 billion figure used to make these calculations does not take account of the rebate negotiated by Margaret Thatcher in 1984. As the Daily Telegraph put it: “In fact, the rebate is effectively deducted at source, and so not actually sent to the EU at all.” Therefore, the UK actual transfer to Brussels in 2014 was not £19.234 billion but £14.346 billion, according to a House of Commons briefing published in February 2016. Even if one accepts that the receipts from the EU were around £9.2 billion (which excludes some payments not passing through the Treasury) the UK receives £1 for every £1.55 it actually pays.' So not quite as cut and dry as you obviously thought it was when googling that and choosing the article based only on its headline (which is why I assumed you posted it) rather than actually reading the article. Also, you are throwing in a (now false) statement without placing it in context. Of course getting only £1 back for £1.55 of expenditure (the real amount) sounds like a bad deal on the surface, but this is not only about financials – there are a lot more metrics that you'd have to include into the equation to really, properly make a decision on whether being part of the EU is good value or not, rather than relying on a purely financial argument, which, I hasten to add it is all a little cliched now. It's even more amusing that the £1/£2 is debunked within the article itself, along with several other corrections related to over inflated claims made by the leave team. Amusing, really. Truly Amusing.
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 19 Dec 18 3.12pm |
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Originally posted by dannyboy1978
Truly Amusing.
Fine, and agreed – we shouldn't just focus on figures as it is not the whole story (and that goes for both leave and remain), but the article is focused on the economics and was posted to make a point regarding the apparently negative financial aspects of being inside the EU. Reading articles before posting them and not misrepresenting the facts within them is probably a good move, no matter what 'side' you're on. It also lessens the value of that posters opinion, really.
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| Painter Croydon 19 Dec 18 3.29pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
To be clear, that's your interpretation of the option on the ballot paper. It did not say 'Leave the EU in totality'. Hence the mess of opinion on this subject. It was a terribly worded question to begin with. Also, again, give me an example of when a lack of majority has not resulted in a compromise agreement, piece of legislation etc. If there was a majority of leave MPs in government then there would be less compromise occurring. I'm afraid that is that. The current MPs have been asked to exit the EU by the public. If they don’t it will be the end of democracy and no further vote will be worth the paper it’s on.
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| dannyboy1978 19 Dec 18 3.37pm |
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Originally posted by Painter
The current MPs have been asked to exit the EU by the public. If they don’t it will be the end of democracy and no further vote will be worth the paper it’s on. Specially for the remoaners
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Attachment: | Badger11 Beckenham 19 Dec 18 3.50pm |
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Originally posted by dannyboy1978
Specially for the remoaners Yes but the question could be misunderstood so when people ticked the leave box they actually meant to tick the stay box, its easily done.
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| dannyboy1978 19 Dec 18 3.56pm |
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The good old EU , what could go wrong.
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 19 Dec 18 4.08pm |
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Originally posted by Painter
The current MPs have been asked to exit the EU by the public. If they don’t it will be the end of democracy and no further vote will be worth the paper it’s on. Oh I think they will, I'd be amazed if there was a peoples vote. But how they exit? That is completely subjective, and open to compromise. This fact is reflected in the ambiguity of the question posed related to the detail of leaving, and also the lack of majority in parliament. Hence Mays deal. It's leaving, but not in totality. I'm afraid that appears to be the best anyone is going to get. Even if we go for no deal, a deal will then be struck with the EU after that. It would almost certainly be more palatable to most hardcore leavers but would still almost certainly contain compromises, like with any other trade deal.
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| steeleye20 Croydon 19 Dec 18 4.26pm |
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'Italy’s real difficulty stems not from its annual deficit but its cumulative debt. This now stands at €2.6tn (£2.3tn), about 133% of GD' No wonder the Italian budget was rejected, the EU is acting responsibly.
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| Painter Croydon 19 Dec 18 4.33pm |
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Originally posted by dannyboy1978
Specially for the remoaners You can see how people got confused it must of been difficult for some people to understand.
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| Badger11 Beckenham 19 Dec 18 4.56pm |
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I hope you are not suggesting that the EU is little more than a Franco-German club? If it isn't it will be after we leave as they will be the main funders.
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| .TUX. 19 Dec 18 7.30pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
'Italy’s real difficulty stems not from its annual deficit but its cumulative debt. This now stands at €2.6tn (£2.3tn), about 133% of GD' No wonder the Italian budget was rejected, the EU is acting responsibly. By continually pumping 'free-money' (QE) into a failing project for how many years now Steely? Tut tut.
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