Topic

This page is no longer updated, and is the old forum. For new topics visit the New HOL forum.

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Page 1973 of 2586 < 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 1977 >

Topic Locked

gbox82 Meols, Wirral 23 Aug 19 8.44am
Originally posted by Badger11 And how do we know what Remainers voted for? Your argument works both ways. Some people will have voted to Remain because they believe 100% in the EU project, others may have voted for a status quo which doesn't exist as the EU is continuing to evolve and some may have reluctantly voted to Remain in the hope that we could get some more exceptions as David Cameron tried to. In short we can speculate about voter intentions but we don't know. The question itself was simple and did not mention leaving with a deal. Really good point this, and one which has been overlooked
Alert a moderator to this post

gbox82

Meols, Wirral 23 Aug 19 8.44am

Originally posted by Badger11

And how do we know what Remainers voted for?

Your argument works both ways. Some people will have voted to Remain because they believe 100% in the EU project, others may have voted for a status quo which doesn't exist as the EU is continuing to evolve and some may have reluctantly voted to Remain in the hope that we could get some more exceptions as David Cameron tried to.

In short we can speculate about voter intentions but we don't know. The question itself was simple and did not mention leaving with a deal.

Really good point this, and one which has been overlooked

Alert a moderator to this post

jeeagles 23 Aug 19 8.52am
Originally posted by Badger11 And how do we know what Remainers voted for? Your argument works both ways. Some people will have voted to Remain because they believe 100% in the EU project, others may have voted for a status quo which doesn't exist as the EU is continuing to evolve and some may have reluctantly voted to Remain in the hope that we could get some more exceptions as David Cameron tried to. In short we can speculate about voter intentions but we don't know. The question itself was simple and did not mention leaving with a deal. I voted remain for stability. I find the people going around with EU flags cringeworthy. The EU project is a mess. Always said there was a chance the Brexit would be much better for Britain than remaining. The slow down in house prices and low unemployment are a example of that. However, our politicians are likely to f*** this up.
Alert a moderator to this post

jeeagles

23 Aug 19 8.52am

Originally posted by Badger11

And how do we know what Remainers voted for?

In short we can speculate about voter intentions but we don't know. The question itself was simple and did not mention leaving with a deal.

I voted remain for stability.
I find the people going around with EU flags cringeworthy.
The EU project is a mess.
Always said there was a chance the Brexit would be much better for Britain than remaining. The slow down in house prices and low unemployment are a example of that. However, our politicians are likely to f*** this up.

Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11 Beckenham 23 Aug 19 8.58am
Originally posted by Mapletree He doesn’t, which is a point in its own right But he does know that the referendum campaign never even mentioned a no deal Brexit so nobody can have actively voted for that. In fact the campaign always spoke about ‘the deal’ so if a no deal happens the referendum will have been fought on misinformation. Who’d a thought it Most Brexit politicians may not have talked up a no deal, Farage and JRM did the mainstream Tories didn't, but the Remain side certainly did. In any campaign each side puts forward the view that best suits their argument and downplays the negatives. I would not have expected the Remain campaign to say that if we do leave it may not be so bad after all and they didn't we got project fear which included leaving with a no deal. You pays your money you takes your choice. One more point
Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11

Beckenham 23 Aug 19 8.58am

Originally posted by Mapletree

He doesn’t, which is a point in its own right

But he does know that the referendum campaign never even mentioned a no deal Brexit so nobody can have actively voted for that. In fact the campaign always spoke about ‘the deal’ so if a no deal happens the referendum will have been fought on misinformation. Who’d a thought it

Most Brexit politicians may not have talked up a no deal, Farage and JRM did the mainstream Tories didn't, but the Remain side certainly did. In any campaign each side puts forward the view that best suits their argument and downplays the negatives.

I would not have expected the Remain campaign to say that if we do leave it may not be so bad after all and they didn't we got project fear which included leaving with a no deal.

You pays your money you takes your choice.

One more point

Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11 Beckenham 23 Aug 19 9.04am
Originally posted by jeeagles I voted remain for stability. I find the people going around with EU flags cringeworthy. The EU project is a mess. Always said there was a chance the Brexit would be much better for Britain than remaining. The slow down in house prices and low unemployment are a example of that. However, our politicians are likely to f*** this up. Fair enough although I would point out that the EU is planning more integration and greater central control. If we stay we either accept this or we try and veto it which will lead to us being further out of step with our partners. So in this case stability is really continuing the fraught relationship we have had with the EU since the early 1990's. Personally if I was going to vote for the EU it would have been to embrace the whole EU project, euro Schengen etc, as the saying goes better to be inside the tent.... Edited by Badger11 (23 Aug 2019 9.05am) One more point
Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11

Beckenham 23 Aug 19 9.04am

Originally posted by jeeagles

I voted remain for stability.
I find the people going around with EU flags cringeworthy.
The EU project is a mess.
Always said there was a chance the Brexit would be much better for Britain than remaining. The slow down in house prices and low unemployment are a example of that. However, our politicians are likely to f*** this up.

Fair enough although I would point out that the EU is planning more integration and greater central control. If we stay we either accept this or we try and veto it which will lead to us being further out of step with our partners. So in this case stability is really continuing the fraught relationship we have had with the EU since the early 1990's.

Personally if I was going to vote for the EU it would have been to embrace the whole EU project, euro Schengen etc, as the saying goes better to be inside the tent....

Edited by Badger11 (23 Aug 2019 9.05am)

One more point

Alert a moderator to this post

Mapletree Croydon 23 Aug 19 9.30am
Originally posted by Badger11 Most Brexit politicians may not have talked up a no deal, Farage and JRM did the mainstream Tories didn't, but the Remain side certainly did. In any campaign each side puts forward the view that best suits their argument and downplays the negatives. I would not have expected the Remain campaign to say that if we do leave it may not be so bad after all and they didn't we got project fear which included leaving with a no deal. You pays your money you takes your choice. Exactly Remain warned of a no deal Brexit, Leave said that was a scare tactic. It was not a Leave policy and was largely written off as simply not happening [Link] Edited by Mapletree (23 Aug 2019 9.35am)
Alert a moderator to this post

Mapletree

Croydon 23 Aug 19 9.30am

Originally posted by Badger11

I would not have expected the Remain campaign to say that if we do leave it may not be so bad after all and they didn't we got project fear which included leaving with a no deal.

You pays your money you takes your choice.

Exactly

Remain warned of a no deal Brexit, Leave said that was a scare tactic. It was not a Leave policy and was largely written off as simply not happening

[Link]

Edited by Mapletree (23 Aug 2019 9.35am)

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 23 Aug 19 9.30am
Originally posted by Midlands Eagle How do you know what people voted for and saying that it would do our country great harm is a typical remainer overblown reaction Simple. Because a "no-deal" Brexit wasn't on the table. No-one really understood what the complexities of us leaving were going to be, or the difficulties it would cause in Ireland. We were all promised that new arrangements on maintaining tariff free trade would take a matter of hours to negotiate because the Germans would be so desperate to continue to sell us their cars. The harm is not my reaction. It's the consensus view of those professionally involved at the coal face of industry. I am not interested in semantics. Any harm, great, small or medium which can be avoided must be avoided. If the political will is that we cease being a member of the EU then we need to do so in a way which causes all parties the least possible damage. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 23 Aug 19 9.30am

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

How do you know what people voted for and saying that it would do our country great harm is a typical remainer overblown reaction

Simple. Because a "no-deal" Brexit wasn't on the table.

No-one really understood what the complexities of us leaving were going to be, or the difficulties it would cause in Ireland. We were all promised that new arrangements on maintaining tariff free trade would take a matter of hours to negotiate because the Germans would be so desperate to continue to sell us their cars.

The harm is not my reaction. It's the consensus view of those professionally involved at the coal face of industry. I am not interested in semantics. Any harm, great, small or medium which can be avoided must be avoided. If the political will is that we cease being a member of the EU then we need to do so in a way which causes all parties the least possible damage.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Spiderman Horsham 23 Aug 19 9.56am
Originally posted by Midlands Eagle Why are our passports scanned when we come back in to the UK from overseas holidays if the information isn't matched to previously leaving the UK To confirm that you are the rightful holder and of course, you may have an arrest warrant out on you
Alert a moderator to this post

Spiderman

Horsham 23 Aug 19 9.56am

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

Why are our passports scanned when we come back in to the UK from overseas holidays if the information isn't matched to previously leaving the UK

To confirm that you are the rightful holder and of course, you may have an arrest warrant out on you

Alert a moderator to this post

Spiderman Horsham 23 Aug 19 9.58am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Simple. Because a "no-deal" Brexit wasn't on the table. No-one really understood what the complexities of us leaving were going to be, or the difficulties it would cause in Ireland. We were all promised that new arrangements on maintaining tariff free trade would take a matter of hours to negotiate because the Germans would be so desperate to continue to sell us their cars. The harm is not my reaction. It's the consensus view of those professionally involved at the coal face of industry. I am not interested in semantics. Any harm, great, small or medium which can be avoided must be avoided. If the political will is that we cease being a member of the EU then we need to do so in a way which causes all parties the least possible damage. You mean all those that want to remain
Alert a moderator to this post

Spiderman

Horsham 23 Aug 19 9.58am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Simple. Because a "no-deal" Brexit wasn't on the table.

The harm is not my reaction. It's the consensus view of those professionally involved at the coal face of industry. I am not interested in semantics. Any harm, great, small or medium which can be avoided must be avoided. If the political will is that we cease being a member of the EU then we need to do so in a way which causes all parties the least possible damage.

You mean all those that want to remain

Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11 Beckenham 23 Aug 19 10.00am
The conversation this morning can be summed up like this. The remain campaign failed to convince the public and that's who Remain voters should be blaming. I think it was Boris that coined the phrase Project Fear it was a great catchphrase that summed up for many the Remain campaign who in turn did not have an equivalent response for the Leavers. I think the Remain campaign over exaggerated the negatives of leaving and did not do enough to praise the virtues of the EU. So when Phil Hammond said he would call an emergency budget and 500,000 people would immediately lose their jobs no one believed him. However he could had said that a no deal is very likely and the Leavers are being overly optimistic etc. If Remain had continued to hammer away at plausible risks I think they could have won the day frightening the voters didn't work. By the way at the next GE I am not expecting Corbyn to say vote for me things will be terrible and I will run the economy into the ground. I think that's the Tories job but if they go too far and say Corbyn will murder us all in our beds then maybe the public won't believe that either. Edited by Badger11 (23 Aug 2019 10.03am) One more point
Alert a moderator to this post

Badger11

Beckenham 23 Aug 19 10.00am

The conversation this morning can be summed up like this. The remain campaign failed to convince the public and that's who Remain voters should be blaming.

I think it was Boris that coined the phrase Project Fear it was a great catchphrase that summed up for many the Remain campaign who in turn did not have an equivalent response for the Leavers.

I think the Remain campaign over exaggerated the negatives of leaving and did not do enough to praise the virtues of the EU. So when Phil Hammond said he would call an emergency budget and 500,000 people would immediately lose their jobs no one believed him. However he could had said that a no deal is very likely and the Leavers are being overly optimistic etc.

If Remain had continued to hammer away at plausible risks I think they could have won the day frightening the voters didn't work.

By the way at the next GE I am not expecting Corbyn to say vote for me things will be terrible and I will run the economy into the ground. I think that's the Tories job but if they go too far and say Corbyn will murder us all in our beds then maybe the public won't believe that either.

Edited by Badger11 (23 Aug 2019 10.03am)

One more point

Alert a moderator to this post

Spiderman Horsham 23 Aug 19 10.02am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle From a no deal Brexit for sure because it wasn't what people voted for and it would do our country great harm. No government should ever do anything that they know will harm the country. You should have told Tony Blair that!
Alert a moderator to this post

Spiderman

Horsham 23 Aug 19 10.02am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

From a no deal Brexit for sure because it wasn't what people voted for and it would do our country great harm.

No government should ever do anything that they know will harm the country.

You should have told Tony Blair that!

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 23 Aug 19 10.06am
Originally posted by Badger11 My complaint which has now been upheld was that both Tory and Labour official policy at the time was pro Brexit and the chart did not reflect that. I challenged why the nationalist parties and the Lib Dems had been included in the remain camp and got the ludicrous response that this was their main policy whereas the Tory and Labour parties have other policies. Try telling an SNP supporter the reason their party exists is to oppose Brexit, Scottish independence has nothing to do with being an SNP supporter? There were only 2 parties that can be said to exist because of Brexit and that is UKIP and the Brexit party all other parties have other policies e.g. the Greens are about the environment. So lumping Remain parties into one group but not lumping all Brexit parties into another was simply nonsense and the BBC has finally recognised that. As another poster said at the time even if the BBC had done that it was still a nonsense chart because there will be Green supporters who voted for Brexit and yes Tory and Labour supporters who voted to Remain. In other words apart from the Brexit party and UKIP you can only speculate as to voter intentions for the other parties. Anyway the BBC has now admitted it was a mistake in the scheme of things it wasn't that important. The BBC have said it was an editorial misjudgement. I personally disagree but that's what holding opinions is all about. I think they got the balance right and those parties who were clearly wholly or mainly in favour of either remain or leave were correctly categorised and those who were split down the middle were kept separate. I would have done exactly the same. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 23 Aug 19 10.06am

Originally posted by Badger11

My complaint which has now been upheld was that both Tory and Labour official policy at the time was pro Brexit and the chart did not reflect that.

I challenged why the nationalist parties and the Lib Dems had been included in the remain camp and got the ludicrous response that this was their main policy whereas the Tory and Labour parties have other policies. Try telling an SNP supporter the reason their party exists is to oppose Brexit, Scottish independence has nothing to do with being an SNP supporter?

There were only 2 parties that can be said to exist because of Brexit and that is UKIP and the Brexit party all other parties have other policies e.g. the Greens are about the environment. So lumping Remain parties into one group but not lumping all Brexit parties into another was simply nonsense and the BBC has finally recognised that.

As another poster said at the time even if the BBC had done that it was still a nonsense chart because there will be Green supporters who voted for Brexit and yes Tory and Labour supporters who voted to Remain.

In other words apart from the Brexit party and UKIP you can only speculate as to voter intentions for the other parties.

Anyway the BBC has now admitted it was a mistake in the scheme of things it wasn't that important.

The BBC have said it was an editorial misjudgement. I personally disagree but that's what holding opinions is all about. I think they got the balance right and those parties who were clearly wholly or mainly in favour of either remain or leave were correctly categorised and those who were split down the middle were kept separate. I would have done exactly the same.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 23 Aug 19 10.25am
Originally posted by Badger11 And how do we know what Remainers voted for? Your argument works both ways. Some people will have voted to Remain because they believe 100% in the EU project, others may have voted for a status quo which doesn't exist as the EU is continuing to evolve and some may have reluctantly voted to Remain in the hope that we could get some more exceptions as David Cameron tried to. In short we can speculate about voter intentions but we don't know. The question itself was simple and did not mention leaving with a deal. For sure those who voted to remain did so for various reasons. That though misses the point. Those who voted to leave would also have done so for a variety of reasons. Like gaining £350 million a week for the NHS, reducing immigration and "regaining control". However, only a very few of the most ardent Eurosceptics would have even known what a "no-deal" Brexit meant, let alone been in favour of it. Whilst an argument in favour of "respecting the referendum" result can be made with honour (as can the counter argument), leaving without a deal cannot be. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.
Alert a moderator to this post

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 23 Aug 19 10.25am

Originally posted by Badger11

And how do we know what Remainers voted for?

In short we can speculate about voter intentions but we don't know. The question itself was simple and did not mention leaving with a deal.

For sure those who voted to remain did so for various reasons. That though misses the point.

Those who voted to leave would also have done so for a variety of reasons. Like gaining £350 million a week for the NHS, reducing immigration and "regaining control". However, only a very few of the most ardent Eurosceptics would have even known what a "no-deal" Brexit meant, let alone been in favour of it.

Whilst an argument in favour of "respecting the referendum" result can be made with honour (as can the counter argument), leaving without a deal cannot be.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Alert a moderator to this post

Topic Locked

Page 1973 of 2586 < 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 1977 >

Previous Topic | Next Topic

Crystal Palace FC Supporters' Website - The Holmesdale Online

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

Site Map

New users

Existing users

Sponsors