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March 19 2024 3.03am

The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)

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View DanH's Profile DanH Flag SW2 24 Sep 19 9.20pm Send a Private Message to DanH Add DanH as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

I would happily torch the entire place tomorrow.

Calm down, Guy Fawkes

 

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag Portishead 24 Sep 19 9.25pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

I would happily torch the entire place tomorrow.

I thought you were one of the more measured right wingers on here.

How many cleaners security guards and clerks on.minimum wage would you take pleasure in seeing burned alive?

The judges have not revoked article 50. They have quite rightly quoshed a decision that even your poster boy Farage thought unlawful.

Perspective!

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 24 Sep 19 9.30pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

They did. And a 2nd referendum will prove it.


What does it prove? Lets assume that it happens. Now I believe there would be a mass boycott because it would lack any shred of credibility. Why vote again for something that did not happen the first time around? Or will you really really promise us this time? And no fingers crossed behind your back?

Let us envisage a turn out of under 50%. With Remain winning by less than 17.4 million votes. Is that more legitimate then the result of June 23rd? Tell me how that solves anything? Yes, we stay in the EU but come the next election and we get a majority for leaving, we go back down the same rabbit hole.

OK. So Parliament is bottling a general election. And you are all chuffed that it has asserted its authority which means it can ignore the result from June 23rd without any recourse. Again fine.

Let it revoke A50. Let is show us how powerful it is. Do that to us rather than a referendum that nobody with half an ounce of common sense will take in any way, shape or form seriously. It would be a farce and achieve nothing.

If Parliament is sovereign then Parliament either acts accordingly or puts itself up for re-election. Let us see how much it values its own worth rather than its cowardly actions of pretending to ask the people then seeking to ignore what the people tell it.

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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View tome's Profile tome Flag Inner Tantalus Time. 24 Sep 19 9.35pm Send a Private Message to tome Add tome as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

So we have Parliament agreeing to hold a referendum with a simple question being posed. Shall we leave or remain in the EU? And the Government says that it will abide by the decision, as does every major political player of the day.

We have that vote. And with no serious doubts about the veracity of the voting process.

There is a clear winner. 52% vote for us to Leave.

Parliament then, by a huge majority, vote for the Article 50 process to be triggered.

It is. And we are told that come what may, we will be leaving on March 29th. None of it proviso on a deal being agreed.

Then we have a GE. And 80% of people vote for a political party that has campaigned on a straight forward promise to honour the outcome of the referendum.

The PM of the day comes back with a deal. It is rejected. Three times. But we are still scheduled to be leaving on March 29th.

And we dont. Instead we end up here.

Yes, I have written all of this before. But explain this to me. Why should I not be frustrated? Why should I not be utterly dismissive of a political system that has promised me, time and time again, to do what I along with 17.4 million others asked it to do?

Yes, the referendum was advisory. And yes, Parliament has the right to change its mind. But if it does so, why would I then subsequently vote in another referendum it offers me on this precise topic? What credibility would that one have in face of the one from June 23rd being ignored despite numerous promises? Surely the refusal to abide by its promise before that one makes any subsequent referendums utterly pointless? Has it ignored any other referendums? Is there a precedent for this?

And this self-same Parliament refusing to put itself to the scrutiny of a general election? What has more credibility now? A general election or a referendum?

f*** it. And f*** anybody who wants to defend it. If it wants to revoke A50 then let it do so. Let it stand up and proudly hold that vote. I will loathe it for ever more but its authority will be clear for all of us to see and judge accordingly when the next GE comes around.

You want us all to just sit back and accept what MP's decide for us all then fine but let them do so openly and without any more deceit. And certainly not with another referendum that solves nothing at all.

The problem with the referendum is it posed a simple question to a complex problem. It was in reality 'keep things at they are' versus 'change'. But no one was clear what the leave, or change scenario would actually be.

While I don't agree with Corbyn on everything, the idea to work out some options for what leave could mean if it was voted for, then go back to the people with those options and remain is what should have happened in the first place.

 


A one and a two...

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 24 Sep 19 9.36pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

I thought you were one of the more measured right wingers on here.

How many cleaners security guards and clerks on.minimum wage would you take pleasure in seeing burned alive?

The judges have not revoked article 50. They have quite rightly quoshed a decision that even your poster boy Farage thought unlawful.

Perspective!

Thats a valid point. I accept that I was wrong in my desire to torch the place. But I am voicing a frustration that millions of others are feeling right now and what I feel that many of you Remainers are unable or unwilling to comprehend.

Can you give me a single reason why I should not be highly f***ed off with all levels of our executive at the moment after the assurances it gave us that our vote on June 23rd would matter? And why I should place any faith in voting in any referendum, ever again?

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag Portishead 24 Sep 19 9.45pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

Originally posted by tome

The problem with the referendum is it posed a simple question to a complex problem. It was in reality 'keep things at they are' versus 'change'. But no one was clear what the leave, or change scenario would actually be.

While I don't agree with Corbyn on everything, the idea to work out some options for what leave could mean if it was voted for, then go back to the people with those options and remain is what should have happened in the first place.

The 1st para answers the point head on.

As for all the threats of mass unrest and election boycott, please! A gaggle of elderly bigots scraping their Zimmer frames about. I think the system will cope.

However, like I said, our route is still leave. You act like you've lost already. You rabid conspiracy theorists need more spine.

 

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View tome's Profile tome Flag Inner Tantalus Time. 24 Sep 19 9.46pm Send a Private Message to tome Add tome as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

Thats a valid point. I accept that I was wrong in my desire to torch the place. But I am voicing a frustration that millions of others are feeling right now and what I feel that many of you Remainers are unable or unwilling to comprehend.

Can you give me a single reason why I should not be highly f***ed off with all levels of our executive at the moment after the assurances it gave us that our vote on June 23rd would matter? And why I should place any faith in voting in any referendum, ever again?

I think whichever way people voted in the referendum, most of them are pretty pissed off. That's the problem with a relatively tight vote - there is no consensus on the best scenario because they all seem bad.

 


A one and a two...

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View SW19 CPFC's Profile SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 24 Sep 19 9.50pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Calling for a no deal and leaving it on the table are not the same thing.
Do not persist with this mealy mouthed two step if you really only seek to Revoke article 50.

Well, as mentioned many times, I don’t. So I’ll keep on mealing on. Just because I don’t fit into a stereotypical remainer / leaver box doesn’t mean I’m misrepresenting my point of view. That would be a complete waste of time and energy.

That may be, but I don’t control a split parliament. I still think that a deal as I’ve laid out is possible. As much as leavers like to say remainer MPs are blocking Brexit, leaver MPs are doing almost as good a job by blocking anything other than a no deal.

 


Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 24 Sep 19 9.50pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by silvertop

The 1st para answers the point head on.

As for all the threats of mass unrest and election boycott, please! A gaggle of elderly bigots scraping their Zimmer frames about. I think the system will cope.

However, like I said, our route is still leave. You act like you've lost already. You rabid conspiracy theorists need more spine.


I said a referendum boycott. And you have not answered my question. Why would a second referendum, on the back of the first one not being enacted as we were promised, have any more credibility? What would be the point in voting in it if Remain is still an option.

I have conceded, through gritted teeth and still willing to dispute the logic, that a public vote on say a Leave with no deal v leaving with an agreed deal might have a validity but why would a Remain option feature? It lost. Was rejected. It does not deserve a second chance.


 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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View SW19 CPFC's Profile SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 24 Sep 19 9.53pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Matov


I said a referendum boycott. And you have not answered my question. Why would a second referendum, on the back of the first one not being enacted as we were promised, have any more credibility? What would be the point in voting in it if Remain is still an option.

I have conceded, through gritted teeth and still willing to dispute the logic, that a public vote on say a Leave with no deal v leaving with an agreed deal might have a validity but why would a Remain option feature? It lost. Was rejected. It does not deserve a second chance.


A second referendum would be nuts (and a bad idea)

I do however understand the reasoning behind including remain. It’s been 3 years, and I’d wager most semi-intellectual people on both sides know a lot more about what they voted for than 3 years ago. That alone is reason enough. Time has not stood still.

If you don’t understand that you’re blind. You don’t have to like it, but you can’t deny the logic.

 


Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 24 Sep 19 9.56pm Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

A second referendum would be nuts (and a bad idea)

I do however understand the reasoning behind including remain. It’s been 3 years, and I’d wager most semi-intellectual people on both sides know a lot more about what they voted for than 3 years ago. That alone is reason enough. Time has not stood still.

If you don’t understand that you’re blind. You don’t have to like it, but you can’t deny the logic.

Is the Union less federal?

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 24 Sep 19 9.59pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

A second referendum would be nuts (and a bad idea)

I do however understand the reasoning behind including remain. It’s been 3 years, and I’d wager most semi-intellectual people on both sides know a lot more about what they voted for than 3 years ago. That alone is reason enough. Time has not stood still.

If you don’t understand that you’re blind. You don’t have to like it, but you can’t deny the logic.

What logic? How do you define 'semi-intellectual' people? You berated me for being unreasonable and I conceded the point?

What does intellect have to do with the reality that Remain was an option in the first referendum and it lost. So therefore if you now want the decision from that first one to be more specific, were is the logic in offering the losing option again?

We leave and then hold a referendum on rejoining, it is a fresh question being asked but all a second referendum is about is clarifying what type of leave people might want.

If you want it re-run with the same question then fair enough but you don't.

 


"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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