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The Brexit Thread

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 11 Oct 19 12.33pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

To you perhaps it does however the same logic applies as to Brexit, those who voted Remain, did you:

1. Vote for the status quo. This means the UK will continue to have a fractious relationship with the EU as we will be continually vetoing or requesting op outs as the direction of the EU is now quite clear.


2. Vote for full membership of the EU including euro and Schengen. I have no problem with this position I don't agree with it but it is logical if we are going to be in a club we should embrace all it's rules so hopefully being proactive we can then shape those rule.

3. Vote for something in the middle of the above.

The EU is continuing to expand in countries and in the control it exerts over its members. Anybody who thinks we can carry on as before is naive.

Remaining in meant the same to everyone. It was crystal clear.

It meant not making any immediate changes. If in the future Parliament decided to join the Euro or Schengen areas or negotiate further opt outs, then that would doubtless spark a pretty lively debate and perhaps, who knows, another, hopefully clearly advisory, referendum. Such matters though are for future Parliaments to decide. The referendum result expressed no opinion on such things. Us keeping how we would remain, what we accept, what we reject and what we would persuade the EU to modify would be just a part of normal membership.

Voting to leave was, at face value, just as straight forward. It's only when the detail crawled out that the devil became obvious. Old Nick had been hiding in the shadows obscured by rhetoric and ignorance.

If we had voted to remain then all of this would have been a distant memory by now. Cameron would likely still be PM, Farage would still be bleating but his base would have tired of it because they would have no-where to go. Corbyn would have been replaced because the failure of the leftwards swing of the Labour Party would be seen as a disaster. It's only the swing to the right of the Tories that has given Labour a lift and re-energised the LibDems.

 

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Flag Horsham 11 Oct 19 12.33pm Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by Maine Eagle

Brexit inches ever closer to the scrap heap via a second referendum.

Happy days.

Watch the news today matey

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 11 Oct 19 12.52pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Remaining in meant the same to everyone. It was crystal clear.

It meant not making any immediate changes. If in the future Parliament decided to join the Euro or Schengen areas or negotiate further opt outs, then that would doubtless spark a pretty lively debate and perhaps, who knows, another, hopefully clearly advisory, referendum. Such matters though are for future Parliaments to decide. The referendum result expressed no opinion on such things. Us keeping how we would remain, what we accept, what we reject and what we would persuade the EU to modify would be just a part of normal membership.

Voting to leave was, at face value, just as straight forward. It's only when the detail crawled out that the devil became obvious. Old Nick had been hiding in the shadows obscured by rhetoric and ignorance.

If we had voted to remain then all of this would have been a distant memory by now. Cameron would likely still be PM, Farage would still be bleating but his base would have tired of it because they would have no-where to go. Corbyn would have been replaced because the failure of the leftwards swing of the Labour Party would be seen as a disaster. It's only the swing to the right of the Tories that has given Labour a lift and re-energised the LibDems.

Hmm a few big if's there.

Not sure I agree that Labour is currently benefiting I think they're in turmoil I don't understand why the LIb Dems don't push for a GE when things calm down I suspect that many of their new voters may drift back to Labour so make hay whilst the sun-shines.

 


One more point

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag Chatham 11 Oct 19 1.09pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Do you understand how a single transferable vote system works?

In your example result, which I don't think is the most likely but let's run with it for the sake of argument, if either "deal" and "no deal" came top then "in" would be eliminated. The second preferences of those who voted "in" would then be counted to see which of the first two came top. As "deal" would almost certainly be the preference of most people who voted "in" it would be the final choice. Only if "no deal" got over 50%, or very close to 50%, before the second preference of "in" were counted would it succeed. I don't think that's very likely.

I think the same result is likely in just about every scenario, with the only other possibility being that "in" might succeed before the second preference of an eliminated "no deal" choice were transferred.

As the chances of "in" succeeding must though be higher in a straight binary choice between "no deal" and "in" I would have thought a 3 way choice with a much higher chance of a "deal" result would have a greater appeal to Brexiteers.

remain would beat both deals being no deal and a deal singularly and that's the point.
That's why it's a stitch up.
It's obvious that remain singularly would beat the other two as individuals so there's the stitch up.
My point is that if both deals together beat remain that is fair on the fact that leaving won last time.
Then have another one about that.
Which as I said is where we are now.
How we leave is now the point.
It's not fair to even have another referendum but this is how it should be.

 

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View Rudi Hedman's Profile Rudi Hedman Flag Caterham 11 Oct 19 1.19pm Send a Private Message to Rudi Hedman Add Rudi Hedman as a friend

We could be more than back on. I wonder who has blinked and and why. It’s all gone into private meetings and phone calls between Boris and Merkel and Boris and Leo, who’s probably getting social media abuse as I hear they’re calling him Boratkar or Boradkar or something.

 


COYP

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 11 Oct 19 1.50pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by cryrst

remain would beat both deals being no deal and a deal singularly and that's the point.
That's why it's a stitch up.
It's obvious that remain singularly would beat the other two as individuals so there's the stitch up.
My point is that if both deals together beat remain that is fair on the fact that leaving won last time.
Then have another one about that.
Which as I said is where we are now.
How we leave is now the point.
It's not fair to even have another referendum but this is how it should be.

As what I am suggesting would produce exactly the same result as what you are, but without the need for the cost, trouble or delay of another referendum then what would be the point?

That's the purpose of a single transferable vote system. It ought to be used for GEs too so that a majority of the people feel they have voted, in some way, for the final choice. Having governments formed by first past the post often results in only 35% of the people choosing who they are. That's one of the primary reasons people have lost confidence in our Parliamentary system.

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 11 Oct 19 2.09pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

As what I am suggesting would produce exactly the same result as what you are, but without the need for the cost, trouble or delay of another referendum then what would be the point?

That's the purpose of a single transferable vote system. It ought to be used for GEs too so that a majority of the people feel they have voted, in some way, for the final choice. Having governments formed by first past the post often results in only 35% of the people choosing who they are. That's one of the primary reasons people have lost confidence in our Parliamentary system.

You will be posting to yourself soon Wisbech.

Your Remain propaganda is beyond soporific.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 11 Oct 19 3.02pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

You will be posting to yourself soon Wisbech.

Your Remain propaganda is beyond soporific.

What on earth has my last post got to do with "remain" let alone being "propaganda"?

It was solely about the single transferable vote system and how it might actually benefit those who want to leave.

However if it sends you to sleep then I am happy for you. I am knee deep in my tax returns and it's having the same effect.

 

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View Hrolf The Ganger's Profile Hrolf The Ganger Flag 11 Oct 19 3.17pm Send a Private Message to Hrolf The Ganger Add Hrolf The Ganger as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

What on earth has my last post got to do with "remain" let alone being "propaganda"?

It was solely about the single transferable vote system and how it might actually benefit those who want to leave.

However if it sends you to sleep then I am happy for you. I am knee deep in my tax returns and it's having the same effect.

Yawn. Second referendums? Boring.

We will get a last minute deal and then Labour will risk political obliteration if they vote it down.

The vast majority of people want this concluded now. Only Remainers in Parliament and a few dogmatic loons want to drag this out longer.

 

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View SW19 CPFC's Profile SW19 CPFC Flag Addiscombe West 11 Oct 19 3.18pm Send a Private Message to SW19 CPFC Add SW19 CPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Yawn. Second referendums? Boring.

We will get a last minute deal and then Labour will risk political obliteration if they vote it down.

The vast majority of people want this concluded now. Only Remainers in Parliament and a few dogmatic loons want to drag this out longer.

Agreed, seems the most likely scenario.

 


said the rabid giraffe whilst brandishing his throbbing member of reason, and twas ever thus.

Did you know? 95% of people are morons.

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View dannyboy1978's Profile dannyboy1978 Flag 11 Oct 19 3.18pm Send a Private Message to dannyboy1978 Add dannyboy1978 as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

How do I know?

You have only to listen to people to know that. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial of reality.

Yes it was a simple question. Which is the whole problem. Complex matters cannot be answered with a simple yes, or no to a simple question.

Well stop making up things then

 

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View Ketteridge's Profile Ketteridge Flag Brighton 11 Oct 19 3.39pm Send a Private Message to Ketteridge Add Ketteridge as a friend

Originally posted by dannyboy1978

How do you know?
Please have a look at the question, it's a very simple question.
[Link]


Edited by dannyboy1978 (11 Oct 2019 11.31am)


To be fair I don't know, it is why I use polls to help my understanding of what people actually think outside of my group of friends. This tells me between one in four or five people would vote for no deal not exactly the will of the people [Link] And yes it does say more would vote to leave, given the options so pretty clear thah at least a sizeable chunk of us who voted remain have accepted the result

 


One supporter of hacking argued that without it "you will do away with the courage and pluck of the game, and I will be bound to bring over a lot of Frenchmen who would beat you with a week's practice -Blackheath secretary at first meeting of the F.A

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