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Hrolf The Ganger 14 Nov 16 3.48pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Or, more honestly...I've got a s*ty life so I'll use the nearest scapegoat that the media offer up to deflect from the real reason your life is so s*ty. You live in a fantasy world as do so many these days. The average liberal/left devotee has become everything that they hate in others.
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Hrolf The Ganger

14 Nov 16 3.48pm

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Originally posted by nickgusset

Or, more honestly...I've got a s***ty life so I'll use the nearest scapegoat that the media offer up to deflect from the real reason your life is so s***ty.

You live in a fantasy world as do so many these days.

The average liberal/left devotee has become everything that they hate in others.

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Nest 14 Nov 16 3.52pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Good idea, maybe we can all pose for photos in our gold lift like these two who are definitely not part of the establishment we are kicking against. Or maybe we'll just direct our ire against a politician who really does want to make things better by making it look like he's dancing at the cenotaph in cropped photos, and put it on the front pages. Its the press who have been directing an assault on Corbyn not the poor. Its the divide in wealth and the non-stop put down from the establishment who have caused this, their own naivity and blindness that everything is running along nicely. When it is obviously ******* not!
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Nest

14 Nov 16 3.52pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Good idea, maybe we can all pose for photos in our gold lift like these two who are definitely not part of the establishment we are kicking against.

Or maybe we'll just direct our ire against a politician who really does want to make things better by making it look like he's dancing at the cenotaph in cropped photos, and put it on the front pages.

Its the press who have been directing an assault on Corbyn not the poor. Its the divide in wealth and the non-stop put down from the establishment who have caused this, their own naivity and blindness that everything is running along nicely. When it is obviously ******* not!

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Hrolf The Ganger 14 Nov 16 3.57pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Probably because the BNP have been exploiting the local issues in the wake of New Labour's betrayal of the UK working classes. Of course the BNP seems to be very much last years NF, as the far right seems to grow a new 'cause celeb' every few years (EDL, Britain First etc). But its not the liberal left that's the issue, its the failure of any political party to actually give a st about people in general, who aren't either in 'key political battleground areas' or upper working class / lower middle class. Both the BNP, UKIP, Class War and Momentum have all capitalised on this (as has the Green Party). Its got nothing really to do with culture - its about jobs, wages and incomes**. People aren't fundamentally worried about a crisis in culture, and so vote BNP. You can add crime to that list and the feeling of anxiety about a rapidly changing cultural and political landscape. The liberals and minority voices are not the root cause of this but they are the noisy face of it that people encounter on TV, the internet and written press. They are the disproportionate antagonism if you like.
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Hrolf The Ganger

14 Nov 16 3.57pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

Probably because the BNP have been exploiting the local issues in the wake of New Labour's betrayal of the UK working classes. Of course the BNP seems to be very much last years NF, as the far right seems to grow a new 'cause celeb' every few years (EDL, Britain First etc).

But its not the liberal left that's the issue, its the failure of any political party to actually give a s**t about people in general, who aren't either in 'key political battleground areas' or upper working class / lower middle class. Both the BNP, UKIP, Class War and Momentum have all capitalised on this (as has the Green Party).

Its got nothing really to do with culture - its about jobs, wages and incomes. People aren't fundamentally worried about a crisis in culture, and so vote BNP.

You can add crime to that list and the feeling of anxiety about a rapidly changing cultural and political landscape.

The liberals and minority voices are not the root cause of this but they are the noisy face of it that people encounter on TV, the internet and written press. They are the disproportionate antagonism if you like.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Nov 16 4.05pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger You can add crime to that list and the feeling of anxiety about a rapidly changing cultural and political landscape. The liberals and minority voices are not the root cause of this but they are the noisy face of it that people encounter on TV, the internet and written press. They are the disproportionate antagonism if you like. Problem with liberals, is that they've increasingly switched Liberalism with being a Liberal Democrat. There is nothing wrong with Liberalism, its the cornerstone of British cultural heritage and political progress. The problem really comes when it becomes about being a Liberal over understanding Liberalism from a political point of view. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 14 Nov 16 4.05pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

You can add crime to that list and the feeling of anxiety about a rapidly changing cultural and political landscape.

Problem with liberals, is that they've increasingly switched Liberalism with being a Liberal Democrat. There is nothing wrong with Liberalism, its the cornerstone of British cultural heritage and political progress.

The problem really comes when it becomes about being a Liberal over understanding Liberalism from a political point of view.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Nov 16 4.09pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger You can add crime to that list and the feeling of anxiety about a rapidly changing cultural and political landscape. Crime is an odd one, I think its an issue, but successive governments have gotten tougher on crime generation on generation to appease the public. The problem with crime is that a) the fear of crime exceeds the threat of crime b) that law enforcement is very much biased towards the upper working and middle classes. One of the issues of anyone living in a poor area, with high crime, tends to be that the police aren't very effective, and that the objective of policing tend to be focused towards more political agenda, rather than pragmatic approaches that focus on resolving issues of crime in poor areas, which often ends up pitting the police against the community. As for the rapidly changing cultural and political landscape - I think that's nothing new. That's been ever present in society, and something of a misnomer - I grew up in a very politically turbulent changing landscape - the 80s (the death of industrialism, changing economies, the rise of consumerism, the far left and right etc). The issue really maybe now is that there isn't really much in terms of cultural or political change - Everything has become increasingly bland and blurred into an indistinct blur (there is no left or right in government, not really and culturally generations have become less pronounced). The world and communication are far closer. We now worry about absurd things, and petty things. Which for someone who grew up with the threat of nuclear annihilation, seem rather petty. For example, where are the youth subcultures?. Edited by jamiemartin721 (14 Nov 2016 4.14pm) "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 14 Nov 16 4.09pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

You can add crime to that list and the feeling of anxiety about a rapidly changing cultural and political landscape.

Crime is an odd one, I think its an issue, but successive governments have gotten tougher on crime generation on generation to appease the public. The problem with crime is that a) the fear of crime exceeds the threat of crime b) that law enforcement is very much biased towards the upper working and middle classes.

One of the issues of anyone living in a poor area, with high crime, tends to be that the police aren't very effective, and that the objective of policing tend to be focused towards more political agenda, rather than pragmatic approaches that focus on resolving issues of crime in poor areas, which often ends up pitting the police against the community.

As for the rapidly changing cultural and political landscape - I think that's nothing new. That's been ever present in society, and something of a misnomer - I grew up in a very politically turbulent changing landscape - the 80s (the death of industrialism, changing economies, the rise of consumerism, the far left and right etc).

The issue really maybe now is that there isn't really much in terms of cultural or political change - Everything has become increasingly bland and blurred into an indistinct blur (there is no left or right in government, not really and culturally generations have become less pronounced).

The world and communication are far closer. We now worry about absurd things, and petty things. Which for someone who grew up with the threat of nuclear annihilation, seem rather petty.

For example, where are the youth subcultures?.

Edited by jamiemartin721 (14 Nov 2016 4.14pm)

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Hrolf The Ganger 14 Nov 16 4.16pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Problem with liberals, is that they've increasingly switched Liberalism with being a Liberal Democrat. There is nothing wrong with Liberalism, its the cornerstone of British cultural heritage and political progress. The problem really comes when it becomes about being a Liberal over understanding Liberalism from a political point of view. I agree. The pure liberal principle is a worthy one that should be upheld at all times, but this has become a recipe for zealotry, political dogma and self serving. The needs and the rights of one group have to be balances against others. It is remarkable when you hear people complaining when a TV channel allows people from the winning side of an election or referendum to speak or when people call for the rejection of a democratic vote. Ironically it has been that very attitude that has lead to the rise of right wing opinion.
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Hrolf The Ganger

14 Nov 16 4.16pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

The problem really comes when it becomes about being a Liberal over understanding Liberalism from a political point of view.

I agree. The pure liberal principle is a worthy one that should be upheld at all times, but this has become a recipe for zealotry, political dogma and self serving. The needs and the rights of one group have to be balances against others.

It is remarkable when you hear people complaining when a TV channel allows people from the winning side of an election or referendum to speak or when people call for the rejection of a democratic vote. Ironically it has been that very attitude that has lead to the rise of right wing opinion.

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We are goin up! Coulsdon 14 Nov 16 4.17pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Good idea, maybe we can all pose for photos in our gold lift like these two who are definitely not part of the establishment we are kicking against. Or maybe we'll just direct our ire against a politician who really does want to make things better by making it look like he's dancing at the cenotaph in cropped photos, and put it on the front pages. Except he won't make people's lives better. Socialism never does, which is why no-one in this country votes for it. The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
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We are goin up!

Coulsdon 14 Nov 16 4.17pm

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Originally posted by nickgusset

Good idea, maybe we can all pose for photos in our gold lift like these two who are definitely not part of the establishment we are kicking against.

Or maybe we'll just direct our ire against a politician who really does want to make things better by making it look like he's dancing at the cenotaph in cropped photos, and put it on the front pages.

Except he won't make people's lives better. Socialism never does, which is why no-one in this country votes for it.

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

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jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Nov 16 4.27pm
Originally posted by Part Time James A good post and I particularly feel that my current political beliefs began in the exact circumstances you describe. I think I became a UKIP supporter around 2010 when I felt like Nigel Farage (yeah I know, opinions will be divided on my next few words) actually seemed to be a light at the end of the tunnel of increasingly restrictive and somewhat patronising rule system about how to live our lives. I get into a lot of arguments because I don't really consider myself right wing. I hold a lot of left wing views and right wing views (but to neither extreme) and if anything a lot of the UKIP professed plans and policies that I feel I associate with, I'd go as far as to say feel quite left wing to me (I actually take issue with the concept of left/right wing and also don't fully buy into party politics being mapped to some kind of linear extreme left to extreme right chart). Personally, and I could admit my education in politics isn't sufficient to feel assured in this, but I have always felt that leaving the EU would help to deliver improvements to this country that do not for one second sound "right wing" to my ears. Of course, they have policies which I disagree with too, but I think most people blindly defending every policy of one political party are perhaps a bit blinkered. So in summary, I have quite passionately backed Leave.EU, UKIP and defended some things which people have decided right wing, but I feel that a lot of that comes as a backlash against the Orwellian world I felt we were voluntarily crashing into. Either the above will be read as an honest assessment or the words of a total prat. My history on here as the latter might pre-dispose you to lean that way! Edited by Part Time James (14 Nov 2016 3.06pm Very true, and the appeal of UKIP is that its an alternative that actually talks about issues that aren't just slightly blurred economic differences. But that was also very much the appeal of the Far Left when I was younger. But they also speak the 'same language' as me. Its the voice of those who are alienated by politics and the remote reality of politicians from my own experience of life. Of course, they do also have the beneficial position of never actually having to deliver on any pledge, because they're not, and nor are they ever very likely to win an election. Problem usually is, when people from these parties actually do get into positions where they 'have a say' they're rarely very effective. The far left and the far right are notorious for being incapable of running councils, because they're good at the rhetoric, but the practical often scuppers them. That's also why UKIP aren't to worried about being called racists, fascists, biggots etc. As that's easy to deal with. If you really want to hurt the political ambitions of the 'noisy' minority, ask them how they balance the books, or plan to pay for economic reforms... The 350m Bus Pledge showed up Leave far more than anything Remain actually did. The problem with political rhetoric as your core policy - You can't deliver on it. UKIP has largely been built around expressing the issues you feel about, but never having to deliver on them, or accept the responsibility. Like UKIP, happy to claim the referendum their victory, but happy to attribute the collapse of the pound on the government. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 14 Nov 16 4.27pm

Originally posted by Part Time James

A good post and I particularly feel that my current political beliefs began in the exact circumstances you describe. I think I became a UKIP supporter around 2010 when I felt like Nigel Farage (yeah I know, opinions will be divided on my next few words) actually seemed to be a light at the end of the tunnel of increasingly restrictive and somewhat patronising rule system about how to live our lives.

I get into a lot of arguments because I don't really consider myself right wing. I hold a lot of left wing views and right wing views (but to neither extreme) and if anything a lot of the UKIP professed plans and policies that I feel I associate with, I'd go as far as to say feel quite left wing to me (I actually take issue with the concept of left/right wing and also don't fully buy into party politics being mapped to some kind of linear extreme left to extreme right chart).

Personally, and I could admit my education in politics isn't sufficient to feel assured in this, but I have always felt that leaving the EU would help to deliver improvements to this country that do not for one second sound "right wing" to my ears. Of course, they have policies which I disagree with too, but I think most people blindly defending every policy of one political party are perhaps a bit blinkered.

So in summary, I have quite passionately backed Leave.EU, UKIP and defended some things which people have decided right wing, but I feel that a lot of that comes as a backlash against the Orwellian world I felt we were voluntarily crashing into.

Either the above will be read as an honest assessment or the words of a total prat. My history on here as the latter might pre-dispose you to lean that way!

Edited by Part Time James (14 Nov 2016 3.06pm

Very true, and the appeal of UKIP is that its an alternative that actually talks about issues that aren't just slightly blurred economic differences. But that was also very much the appeal of the Far Left when I was younger.

But they also speak the 'same language' as me. Its the voice of those who are alienated by politics and the remote reality of politicians from my own experience of life.

Of course, they do also have the beneficial position of never actually having to deliver on any pledge, because they're not, and nor are they ever very likely to win an election.

Problem usually is, when people from these parties actually do get into positions where they 'have a say' they're rarely very effective. The far left and the far right are notorious for being incapable of running councils, because they're good at the rhetoric, but the practical often scuppers them.

That's also why UKIP aren't to worried about being called racists, fascists, biggots etc. As that's easy to deal with.

If you really want to hurt the political ambitions of the 'noisy' minority, ask them how they balance the books, or plan to pay for economic reforms...

The 350m Bus Pledge showed up Leave far more than anything Remain actually did.

The problem with political rhetoric as your core policy - You can't deliver on it. UKIP has largely been built around expressing the issues you feel about, but never having to deliver on them, or accept the responsibility.

Like UKIP, happy to claim the referendum their victory, but happy to attribute the collapse of the pound on the government.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Nest 14 Nov 16 4.28pm
Originally posted by We are goin up! Except he won't make people's lives better. Socialism never does, which is why no-one in this country votes for it. Please tell me what political belief makes life better so i can vote for it
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Nest

14 Nov 16 4.28pm

Originally posted by We are goin up!

Except he won't make people's lives better. Socialism never does, which is why no-one in this country votes for it.

Please tell me what political belief makes life better so i can vote for it

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jamiemartin721 Reading 14 Nov 16 4.37pm
Originally posted by We are goin up! Except he won't make people's lives better. Socialism never does, which is why no-one in this country votes for it. The idea that any kind of socialism is achievable in the UK is absurd. Even at its height of being left wing, the degree to which the Labour Party were really even remotely socialist is questionable. They're were always more Rawls than Marxist. That's not to say there aren't Marxists in the Labour party, there are. But the Labour Party of the UK hasn't really ever been on a par with socialism ala The Soviet Union or Cuba. There does tend to be an 'overstatement' that Labour are Socialist. The far left parties, in the UK, have never really achieved much political or electoral traction. Like UKIP, they've had a few members of parliament, and a few councils in their time. There is a difference between left wing and Stalinist Communism. "One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" [Link]
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jamiemartin721

Reading 14 Nov 16 4.37pm

Originally posted by We are goin up!

Except he won't make people's lives better. Socialism never does, which is why no-one in this country votes for it.

The idea that any kind of socialism is achievable in the UK is absurd. Even at its height of being left wing, the degree to which the Labour Party were really even remotely socialist is questionable. They're were always more Rawls than Marxist. That's not to say there aren't Marxists in the Labour party, there are. But the Labour Party of the UK hasn't really ever been on a par with socialism ala The Soviet Union or Cuba.

There does tend to be an 'overstatement' that Labour are Socialist.

The far left parties, in the UK, have never really achieved much political or electoral traction. Like UKIP, they've had a few members of parliament, and a few councils in their time.

There is a difference between left wing and Stalinist Communism.

"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
[Link]

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Part Time James 14 Nov 16 4.41pm
Originally posted by jamiemartin721 Very true, and the appeal of UKIP is that its an alternative that actually talks about issues that aren't just slightly blurred economic differences. But that was also very much the appeal of the Far Left when I was younger. But they also speak the 'same language' as me. Its the voice of those who are alienated by politics and the remote reality of politicians from my own experience of life. Of course, they do also have the beneficial position of never actually having to deliver on any pledge, because they're not, and nor are they ever very likely to win an election. Problem usually is, when people from these parties actually do get into positions where they 'have a say' they're rarely very effective. The far left and the far right are notorious for being incapable of running councils, because they're good at the rhetoric, but the practical often scuppers them. That's also why UKIP aren't to worried about being called racists, fascists, biggots etc. As that's easy to deal with. If you really want to hurt the political ambitions of the 'noisy' minority, ask them how they balance the books, or plan to pay for economic reforms... The 350m Bus Pledge showed up Leave far more than anything Remain actually did. The problem with political rhetoric as your core policy - You can't deliver on it. UKIP has largely been built around expressing the issues you feel about, but never having to deliver on them, or accept the responsibility. Like UKIP, happy to claim the referendum their victory, but happy to attribute the collapse of the pound on the government. Yeah, I don't disagree with that. I have a mate who has stood in local elections for UKIP a few times. I don't always agree with him by the way. I have told him that actually I could ditch UKIP quite quickly and he hates me for saying that! They are getting quite close now to having made the impact that I wanted somebody, anybody, to make and that's all I really wanted. That said, I'd like to see them represented in parliament with a few more seats. I don't begrudge other parties such as the Green party (in the interest of balance) having their say too.
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Part Time James

14 Nov 16 4.41pm

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Originally posted by jamiemartin721

But they also speak the 'same language' as me. Its the voice of those who are alienated by politics and the remote reality of politicians from my own experience of life.

Of course, they do also have the beneficial position of never actually having to deliver on any pledge, because they're not, and nor are they ever very likely to win an election.

That's also why UKIP aren't to worried about being called racists, fascists, biggots etc. As that's easy to deal with.

If you really want to hurt the political ambitions of the 'noisy' minority, ask them how they balance the books, or plan to pay for economic reforms...

The 350m Bus Pledge showed up Leave far more than anything Remain actually did.

Like UKIP, happy to claim the referendum their victory, but happy to attribute the collapse of the pound on the government.

Yeah, I don't disagree with that. I have a mate who has stood in local elections for UKIP a few times. I don't always agree with him by the way. I have told him that actually I could ditch UKIP quite quickly and he hates me for saying that! They are getting quite close now to having made the impact that I wanted somebody, anybody, to make and that's all I really wanted. That said, I'd like to see them represented in parliament with a few more seats. I don't begrudge other parties such as the Green party (in the interest of balance) having their say too.

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.TUX. 14 Nov 16 4.43pm
Originally posted by Nest Its the press who have been directing an assault on Corbyn not the poor. Its the divide in wealth and the non-stop put down from the establishment who have caused this, their own naivity and blindness that everything is running along nicely. When it is obviously *** not! It's working perfectly, for 'them'. We're being socially, politically and financially raped by the establishment and have been for the past 30 or so years. The real problem is that not enough of us are fully aware of the real problem. It should be very clear by now that whichever party hold the power, nothing changes for the betterment of the population, things continually get worse. This is by no means an accident. Cunds. Buy Litecoin.
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.TUX.

14 Nov 16 4.43pm

Originally posted by Nest

Its the press who have been directing an assault on Corbyn not the poor. Its the divide in wealth and the non-stop put down from the establishment who have caused this, their own naivity and blindness that everything is running along nicely. When it is obviously ******* not!

It's working perfectly, for 'them'.
We're being socially, politically and financially raped by the establishment and have been for the past 30 or so years. The real problem is that not enough of us are fully aware of the real problem.
It should be very clear by now that whichever party hold the power, nothing changes for the betterment of the population, things continually get worse.
This is by no means an accident.

Cunds.

Buy Litecoin.

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