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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 13 May 17 10.18pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Is that it? Aren't you going to accuse Clem of being a right wing xenophobe?

No because he wasn't.

Stop trying to cover up for the fact the country may have made a grave error, particularly in the hands of Theresa May

 

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 13 May 17 10.28pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

No because he wasn't.

Stop trying to cover up for the fact the country may have made a grave error, particularly in the hands of Theresa May

He also said:
When we come to the political point, I confess I feel gravely disturbed. We are allying ourselves with six nations of Europe; it may be more, but six at present. Four of those we rescued only twenty years or so ago from domination by the other two. Now we go cap in hand to the people whom we thought we beat in war. I am all for having agreements with everybody. I am all for getting on in the world with countries very differently organised to ourselves, capitalist countries, even Communist countries; but I am rather doubtful about these present proposals...It does not seem to me to be a very good tie-up for us; and if we are to go in irrevocably and tie ourselves up with other States, I think it is an extremely doubtful proposition for Britain. I think the political dangers are very great. Once you are in there, it is quite different from being in an organisation like NATO, which is a defence organisation directed against specific perils. It is a general link-up with Europe.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 13 May 17 11.00pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

He also said:
When we come to the political point, I confess I feel gravely disturbed. We are allying ourselves with six nations of Europe; it may be more, but six at present. Four of those we rescued only twenty years or so ago from domination by the other two. Now we go cap in hand to the people whom we thought we beat in war. I am all for having agreements with everybody. I am all for getting on in the world with countries very differently organised to ourselves, capitalist countries, even Communist countries; but I am rather doubtful about these present proposals...It does not seem to me to be a very good tie-up for us; and if we are to go in irrevocably and tie ourselves up with other States, I think it is an extremely doubtful proposition for Britain. I think the political dangers are very great. Once you are in there, it is quite different from being in an organisation like NATO, which is a defence organisation directed against specific perils. It is a general link-up with Europe.

What point are you trying to make? Thatcher thought the EU was the DB's didn't she?

 

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 14 May 17 10.40am

Originally posted by nickgusset

What point are you trying to make? Thatcher thought the EU was the DB's didn't she?

Thatcher would have campaigned for Leave of course.
My point is that when the various arguments against being in the EU are aired, the left accuses those making the arguments as xenophobic, racist, right wingers.
When the best prime minister of the 20th century and the best leader the Labour party is likely to ever have, makes exactly the same arguments, there is just embarrassed silence from what passes as the left these days. Similar to when Tony Benn's firm opposition to EU membership is mentioned.

Attlee in a speech in the House of Lords on the British application to join the Common Market (8 November 1962).
We are told that we have to accept the Treaty of Rome. I have read the Treaty of Rome pretty carefully, and it expresses an outlook entirely different from our own. It may be that I am insular, but I value our Parliamentary outlook, an outlook which has extended throughout the Commonwealth. That is not the same position that holds on the Continent of Europe. No one of these principal countries in the Common Market has been very successful in running Parliamentary institutions: Germany, hardly any experience; Italy, very little; France, a swing between a dictatorship and more or less anarchic Parliament, and not very successfully. As I read the Treaty of Rome, the whole position means that we shall enter a federation which is composed in an entirely different way. I do not say it is the wrong way. But it is not our way. In this set-up it is the official who really puts up all the proposals; the whole of the planning is done by officials. It seems to me that the Ministers come in at a later stage—and if there is anything like a Federal Parliament, at a later stage still. I do not think that that is the way this country has developed, or wishes to develop. I am all for working in with our Continental friends. I was one of those who worked to build up NATO; I have worked for European integration. But that is a very different thing from bringing us into a close association which, I may say, is not one for defence, or even just for foreign policy. The fact is that if the designs behind the Common Market are carried out, we are bound to be affected in every phase of our national life. There would be no national planning, except under the guidance of Continental planning—we shall not be able to deal with our own problems; we shall not be able to build up the country in the way we want to do, so far as I can see. I think we shall be subject to overall control and planning by others. That is my objection.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 14 May 17 5.24pm

Originally posted by hedgehog50

Thatcher would have campaigned for Leave of course.
My point is that when the various arguments against being in the EU are aired, the left accuses those making the arguments as xenophobic, racist, right wingers.
When the best prime minister of the 20th century and the best leader the Labour party is likely to ever have, makes exactly the same arguments, there is just embarrassed silence from what passes as the left these days. Similar to when Tony Benn's firm opposition to EU membership is mentioned.

Attlee in a speech in the House of Lords on the British application to join the Common Market (8 November 1962).
We are told that we have to accept the Treaty of Rome. I have read the Treaty of Rome pretty carefully, and it expresses an outlook entirely different from our own. It may be that I am insular, but I value our Parliamentary outlook, an outlook which has extended throughout the Commonwealth. That is not the same position that holds on the Continent of Europe. No one of these principal countries in the Common Market has been very successful in running Parliamentary institutions: Germany, hardly any experience; Italy, very little; France, a swing between a dictatorship and more or less anarchic Parliament, and not very successfully. As I read the Treaty of Rome, the whole position means that we shall enter a federation which is composed in an entirely different way. I do not say it is the wrong way. But it is not our way. In this set-up it is the official who really puts up all the proposals; the whole of the planning is done by officials. It seems to me that the Ministers come in at a later stage—and if there is anything like a Federal Parliament, at a later stage still. I do not think that that is the way this country has developed, or wishes to develop. I am all for working in with our Continental friends. I was one of those who worked to build up NATO; I have worked for European integration. But that is a very different thing from bringing us into a close association which, I may say, is not one for defence, or even just for foreign policy. The fact is that if the designs behind the Common Market are carried out, we are bound to be affected in every phase of our national life. There would be no national planning, except under the guidance of Continental planning—we shall not be able to deal with our own problems; we shall not be able to build up the country in the way we want to do, so far as I can see. I think we shall be subject to overall control and planning by others. That is my objection.

The vote for leave was spread across all parties, as was remain.

Are you doing Clement Attlee quotes on mastermind soon?

Why if you think he's so great do you not laud his influence on building a great welfare state for the many not the few?

 

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 14 May 17 6.02pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

The vote for leave was spread across all parties, as was remain.

Are you doing Clement Attlee quotes on mastermind soon?

Why if you think he's so great do you not laud his influence on building a great welfare state for the many not the few?

I do laud his influence on building a welfare state, his model worked well. However, there would have been a welfare state if the Conservatives had won in 1945, their manifesto said: "One of our most important tasks will be to pass into law and bring into action as soon as we can a nation-wide and compulsory scheme of National Insurance based on the plan announced by the Government of all Parties in 1944." and "The health services of the country will be made available to all citizens. Everyone will contribute to the cost, and no one will be denied the attention, the treatment or the appliances he requires because he cannot afford them.
We propose to create a comprehensive health service covering the whole range of medical treatment from the general practitioner to the specialist, and from the hospital to convalescence and rehabilitation; and to introduce legislation for this purpose in the new Parliament."

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Flag Croydon 14 May 17 9.32pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Proposals are not deeds the tories have never made any social advance at all they simply are not able to understand the concept of fairness and social justice.

Thatcher would never have had a referendum which she abhorred and certainly not left the EU as the single market was her achievement 'the best thing since sliced bread.'

That does not mean she was not often irritated by the EU but she would not have seen any mileage in self harming the UK.

 

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hedgehog50 Flag Croydon 14 May 17 9.50pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Proposals are not deeds the tories have never made any social advance at all they simply are not able to understand the concept of fairness and social justice.

Thatcher would never have had a referendum which she abhorred and certainly not left the EU as the single market was her achievement 'the best thing since sliced bread.'

That does not mean she was not often irritated by the EU but she would not have seen any mileage in self harming the UK.

As you no doubt consider yourself a 'progressive', I would have thought gay marriage brought in by the Tory Cameron was right up your street?
Thatcher would certainly have campaigned for Leave.

 


We have now sunk to a depth at which the restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men. [Orwell]

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View Rubin's Profile Rubin Flag 17 May 17 8.36pm Send a Private Message to Rubin Add Rubin as a friend

Interesting to see yet another board member strongly backing Brexit, along with Parish:

[Link]

 

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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Flag Croydon 17 May 17 8.43pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by hedgehog50

As you no doubt consider yourself a 'progressive', I would have thought gay marriage brought in by the Tory Cameron was right up your street?
Thatcher would certainly have campaigned for Leave.

Gay marriage?????????????

You are off your trolley ask anyone else on this site.

 

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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Flag Croydon 17 May 17 8.46pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by Rubin

Interesting to see yet another board member strongly backing Brexit, along with Parish:

[Link]

Hopefully we will remain a football club not a political football.

 

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View susmik's Profile susmik Flag PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 17 May 17 8.47pm Send a Private Message to susmik Add susmik as a friend

Originally posted by Rubin

Interesting to see yet another board member strongly backing Brexit, along with Parish:

[Link]

Yes a man who knows what is best.

 


Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky.

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