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Another black man shot by police in USA

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 13 Jul 16 11.49am

Originally posted by 7mins

"The notion that America's cops simply are gunning down innocent black people is one of today's biggest and deadliest lies."

Innocent isn't the issue, it people, that matters. Police should only be responding with lethal force in situations where there is a clear threat to either the officers or to bystanders.

For me, the issue isn't whether they are black or not, or whether they have a criminal record, its whether the use of deadly force was reasonable.

A restrained man, even if he's guilty, isn't by default fair game to shoot, irrespective of his race. There is a racial element here, but I feel there is more, but that's for other groups to raise as an associated issue (if police are shooting white suspects on a highly dubious grounds, then that also is just as bad).

A lot of the criticism of BLM deals with protecting the right of the police to just shoot people if they may be armed, or a physical threat, not an existential one.

The issue, at base, isn't about race per se, its about whether police officers use of force in these circumstances, is justified.

And it isn't. Shooting a restrained man, when the police discover a gun on him, isn't justified. Shooting a bloke in a car reaching for his licence, isn't justified. The actions of these officers is deplorable, and unacceptable - as is the protection of such officers by the establishment around them.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 13 Jul 16 11.52am

Originally posted by 7mins

"Black Lives Matter (BLM) is an activist movement, originating in the African-American community, that campaigns against violence toward black people. "

But stated that black on black violence isn't their concern.

Quite, and it isn't. There are plenty of other activist movements that tackle inner city gangs, gang violence, poverty, school programs etc. This is specifically about one issue. Makes sense to me. Different groups focus on different problems.

The concern is how willingly people are happy to dismiss the idea that many, if not all, of these issues where police have gunned down and killed unarmed people, are acceptable.

 


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View 7mins's Profile 7mins Flag In the bush 13 Jul 16 1.12pm Send a Private Message to 7mins Add 7mins as a friend

Both the people shot recently were armed.
Police very rarely go round shooting unarmed people. Fill a country with guns and these incidents are bound to happen. What is dangerous is people using terms like "executing" and "putting wings on pigs".

 

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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 13 Jul 16 1.26pm

Originally posted by 7mins

Both the people shot recently were armed.
Police very rarely go round shooting unarmed people. Fill a country with guns and these incidents are bound to happen. What is dangerous is people using terms like "executing" and "putting wings on pigs".

Neither person was displaying a weapon. In one incident the individual was physically restrained by two officers before discovery of a firearm. In the second the individual was in possession of a licenced, legal firearm and a carry permit, which he had reported to the officer on scene, just prior to the officer shooting him five times.

So their being armed is irrelevant to the actions of the officer opening fire.

If you think that's justified you're looking at exactly why some people think its just to shoot five police officers in response. They did this, so we can do that. The point everyone misses is that people are being killed in a manner that is unacceptable in any civilised society.

Only 39% of black males shot by the police were armed. That's a worryingly low figure that to me, and any sensible person, shows a complete lack of restraint and regard for lives by the Police.

 


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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 13 Jul 16 1.27pm

Originally posted by 7mins

Both the people shot recently were armed.
Police very rarely go round shooting unarmed people. Fill a country with guns and these incidents are bound to happen. What is dangerous is people using terms like "executing" and "putting wings on pigs".

What would you call shooting a man to death, by legal authority, who is not a threat?

 


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View 7mins's Profile 7mins Flag In the bush 13 Jul 16 2.58pm Send a Private Message to 7mins Add 7mins as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

What would you call shooting a man to death, by legal authority, who is not a threat?

Who said he wasn't a threat? That's your opinion from suburban England. You can't see if he was reaching for the gun in the video, the officer shouts, "he has a gun" if it was in his pocket, how did he know he was in possession of a gun? Maybe he just guessed... Maybe he thought... We'll taser him, and if that don't work we'll shoot him, and hope he has a gun on him.
The officer seems pretty upset at the end of the video.

The 2nd incident... Seems a little more dodgy... But even then the officer says he told the man not to move after he declared he had a (legal) firearm on him.

Like officers say... Comply and we both go home.

 

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View 7mins's Profile 7mins Flag In the bush 13 Jul 16 3.00pm Send a Private Message to 7mins Add 7mins as a friend

BLM wasn't formed to fight police brutality. It was formed in response to violence against blacks, after the Zimmerman case. They now concentrate on police shootings.

 

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View Ray in Houston's Profile Ray in Houston Flag Houston 13 Jul 16 3.15pm Send a Private Message to Ray in Houston Add Ray in Houston as a friend

Originally posted by 7mins

Both the people shot recently were armed.
Police very rarely go round shooting unarmed people. Fill a country with guns and these incidents are bound to happen. What is dangerous is people using terms like "executing" and "putting wings on pigs".


So how many people can they shoot before it gets above your tolerance threshold? Does it make a difference if you know any of them or are related to any of them? How about if it's you, would that still be ok because it was "rare"?

I have cops come up to me with hand-on-hilt on two occasions, both in the early hours of the morning. This was years ago, and I never thought anything of it until the recent highlighting of the unnecessary use of lethal force (and subsequent lying about it) by police. Now it gives me serious pause: I may be here now purely by dint of my skin colour.

Edited by Ray in Houston (13 Jul 2016 3.16pm)

 


We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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View Ray in Houston's Profile Ray in Houston Flag Houston 13 Jul 16 3.20pm Send a Private Message to Ray in Houston Add Ray in Houston as a friend

Originally posted by 7mins

Who said he wasn't a threat? That's your opinion from suburban England. You can't see if he was reaching for the gun in the video, the officer shouts, "he has a gun" if it was in his pocket, how did he know he was in possession of a gun? Maybe he just guessed... Maybe he thought... We'll taser him, and if that don't work we'll shoot him, and hope he has a gun on him.
The officer seems pretty upset at the end of the video.

The officers had both his arms pinned. After the shooting, they pulled the gun from his pocket. He never had the gun and never looked like being able to get it.

I'm glad you're sympathetic to the officer's feelings. He has the rest of his life to feel bad about killing this man...


Originally posted by 7mins
The 2nd incident... Seems a little more dodgy... But even then the officer says he told the man not to move after he declared he had a (legal) firearm on him.

Like officers say... Comply and we both go home.


And in what way did Philando Castile not comply? He told the officer about the gun, told him his ID was in his back pocket, was asked to produce it, reached for his pocket and took 4 bullets to the chest.

How the f*** does Castile manage that situation better so as not to be shot?!!!

 


We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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View Ray in Houston's Profile Ray in Houston Flag Houston 13 Jul 16 3.25pm Send a Private Message to Ray in Houston Add Ray in Houston as a friend

This about sums it up.

13669823_1123862744327312_4036848073299527944_n.jpg Attachment: 13669823_1123862744327312_4036848073299527944_n.jpg (42.24Kb)

 


We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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View sxp55's Profile sxp55 Flag South Norwood 13 Jul 16 3.56pm Send a Private Message to sxp55 Add sxp55 as a friend

Does make you wonder - Imagine we gave some of the authority over here guns. Some of these American officers can barely tie their laces yet are trusted with a firearm.

Edited by sxp55 (13 Jul 2016 3.56pm)

 


@sxp55555

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View Ray in Houston's Profile Ray in Houston Flag Houston 13 Jul 16 5.05pm Send a Private Message to Ray in Houston Add Ray in Houston as a friend

"To understand the lack of police legitimacy in black communities, consider the contempt in which most white Americans hold O.J. Simpson. Consider their feelings toward the judge and jury in the case. And then consider that this is approximately how black people have felt every few months for generations. It’s not just that the belief that Officer Timothy Loehmann got away with murdering a 12-year-old Tamir Rice, it is the reality that police officers have been getting away with murdering black people since the advent of American policing. The injustice compounds, congeals until there is an almost tangible sense of dread and grievance that compels a community to understand the police as objects of fear, not respect."
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We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football.

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