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jamiemartin721 Flag Reading 31 Oct 17 1.33pm

Originally posted by eaglelad

Wow, so Catalonia have announced Independence today but Spain have refused it!

I remember there being Basque (North East Spain) separatists a few years ago wanting to break away, but have there been any Catalonian attacks over the years?

Things are going to get Messi in Spain :/ (lame pun intended).

Any Spanish/Catalan/Ex-Pat Palace fans there able to tell us the animosity/confusion amongst the people gente there?

Are there fascist Spanish right wingers ready for war and are there Catalonians for or against this?

Edited by eaglelad (27 Oct 2017 6.48pm)

There still are a lot of Basque seperatists - its only ETA that have been reasonably quite in the last few years (largely due to arrests).

I suspect that denied political engagement and negotiation, Catalan nationalists will likely increasingly utilise militancy against the Spainish state, and that groups like ETA will start to re-appear and ally their cause with Catalonian independence.

Refusing to allow the referendum was a bad idea for Spain's central government, like the rise of Scottish Nationalism, an official state referendum would likely have been an effective means of establishing the degree of support Catalan independence has (bearing in mind that five or six years ago Catalan independence parties had minimal political support).

Otherwise, all that's going to happen, is that they state will render the voice of independence louder as they try to crack down on what has largely been a non-violent pursuit of democratic driven change (most of the violence has been through the Spanish states attempts to quell the referendum, and silence elected Catalonian officials).

The EU shouldn't intervene, its outside its political remit, it should pass the issue to the UN.

 


"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug"
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Park Road Flag 31 Oct 17 1.36pm

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

There still are a lot of Basque seperatists - its only ETA that have been reasonably quite in the last few years (largely due to arrests).

I suspect that denied political engagement and negotiation, Catalan nationalists will likely increasingly utilise militancy against the Spainish state, and that groups like ETA will start to re-appear and ally their cause with Catalonian independence.

Refusing to allow the referendum was a bad idea for Spain's central government, like the rise of Scottish Nationalism, an official state referendum would likely have been an effective means of establishing the degree of support Catalan independence has (bearing in mind that five or six years ago Catalan independence parties had minimal political support).

Otherwise, all that's going to happen, is that they state will render the voice of independence louder as they try to crack down on what has largely been a non-violent pursuit of democratic driven change (most of the violence has been through the Spanish states attempts to quell the referendum, and silence elected Catalonian officials).

The EU shouldn't intervene, its outside its political remit, it should pass the issue to the UN.

There are also separatists in Galicia but relatively small in numbers

 

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nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 31 Oct 17 1.41pm

Originally posted by Park Road

There are also separatists in Galicia but relatively small in numbers

And cornwall!

 

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Park Road Flag 31 Oct 17 2.05pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

And cornwall!

I think that's more to do with cream teas and scones and what side your butter or jam is on

 

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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 31 Oct 17 4.13pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Originally posted by jamiemartin721

There still are a lot of Basque seperatists - its only ETA that have been reasonably quite in the last few years (largely due to arrests).

I suspect that denied political engagement and negotiation, Catalan nationalists will likely increasingly utilise militancy against the Spainish state, and that groups like ETA will start to re-appear and ally their cause with Catalonian independence.

Refusing to allow the referendum was a bad idea for Spain's central government, like the rise of Scottish Nationalism, an official state referendum would likely have been an effective means of establishing the degree of support Catalan independence has (bearing in mind that five or six years ago Catalan independence parties had minimal political support).

Otherwise, all that's going to happen, is that they state will render the voice of independence louder as they try to crack down on what has largely been a non-violent pursuit of democratic driven change (most of the violence has been through the Spanish states attempts to quell the referendum, and silence elected Catalonian officials).

The EU shouldn't intervene, its outside its political remit, it should pass the issue to the UN.

Well that, along with a ceasefire and subsequent disarmament.

Puigdemont is a belligerent fool, all the while Spain refused a referendum they could posit themselves as the hard done by side. Holding a referendum that everyone knows was illegal, was completely ignored by the opposition and not even conclusive has played right into the government's hands.

No one should intervene, it's a Spanish issue. We aren't going to give one to Cornwall or Canvey Island etc no matter how much some of them would like it, and we definitely wouldn't do it if the EU or UN attempted to force us to.

Edited by Stuk (31 Oct 2017 5.19pm)

 


Optimistic as ever

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View Barcelona eagle's Profile Barcelona eagle Flag Cubelles 31 Oct 17 5.10pm Send a Private Message to Barcelona eagle Add Barcelona eagle as a friend

Originally posted by eaglelad

Wow, so Catalonia have announced Independence today but Spain have refused it!

I remember there being Basque (North East Spain) separatists a few years ago wanting to break away, but have there been any Catalonian attacks over the years?

Things are going to get Messi in Spain :/ (lame pun intended).

Any Spanish/Catalan/Ex-Pat Palace fans there able to tell us the animosity/confusion amongst the people gente there?

Are there fascist Spanish right wingers ready for war and are there Catalonians for or against this?

Edited by eaglelad (27 Oct 2017 6.48pm)

The Catalan government has basically carried out a cuop d'état, which has been followed up by a reactive coup d'état by Spain on the Autonomous Catalan Government.

They held an illegal referendum. That being said and as touched upon by Jamie, the most 'democratic' way would have been to allow a referendum. I believe it should be the whole union that votes though, not just the region, as this is affecting many many people. 1500 businesses have left Cataluyna including the two biggest Catalan banks. The car manufacturer Seat has its plant near Barcelona, they are considering moving back to Navarra in the north, this will again create a loss of jobs in the region of 11,000 just at the two plants, plus all the supply chain (of which I am one of many). One grievance is show big do you have to be to want to become a republic, what is stopping the Catalan regions of Lleida or Tarragona who neighbour the regions of Huesca/Zaragoza and France and Huesca/Valencia respectively saying we want to separate from Cataluña to protect our interests with our neighbours?

A good percentage of the people voting and those in the streets are under 25 and have hardly worked either because of the financial crisis and high unemployment in Spain or because they are students. I am not saying that the Catalans are undeserving of independence, they were independent 300 years ago, however I just believe they are hearing all the wrong arguments a la Brexit, and some of the home truths are being left out of the discussions.

Lastly, I think Cataluña could be a successful autonomous state, but it would probably take a decade or two to recover fully. They have no Fiscal tax office, no defence and would not be allowed to join the single market or EU for the foreseeable future, maybe never.

Plus Puigdemont has such a punchable face.

 

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View Stuk's Profile Stuk Flag Top half 31 Oct 17 5.21pm Send a Private Message to Stuk Add Stuk as a friend

Originally posted by Barcelona eagle

The Catalan government has basically carried out a cuop d'état, which has been followed up by a reactive coup d'état by Spain on the Autonomous Catalan Government.

They held an illegal referendum. That being said and as touched upon by Jamie, the most 'democratic' way would have been to allow a referendum. I believe it should be the whole union that votes though, not just the region, as this is affecting many many people. 1500 businesses have left Cataluyna including the two biggest Catalan banks. The car manufacturer Seat has its plant near Barcelona, they are considering moving back to Navarra in the north, this will again create a loss of jobs in the region of 11,000 just at the two plants, plus all the supply chain (of which I am one of many). One grievance is show big do you have to be to want to become a republic, what is stopping the Catalan regions of Lleida or Tarragona who neighbour the regions of Huesca/Zaragoza and France and Huesca/Valencia respectively saying we want to separate from Cataluña to protect our interests with our neighbours?

A good percentage of the people voting and those in the streets are under 25 and have hardly worked either because of the financial crisis and high unemployment in Spain or because they are students. I am not saying that the Catalans are undeserving of independence, they were independent 300 years ago, however I just believe they are hearing all the wrong arguments a la Brexit, and some of the home truths are being left out of the discussions.

Lastly, I think Cataluña could be a successful autonomous state, but it would probably take a decade or two to recover fully. They have no Fiscal tax office, no defence and would not be allowed to join the single market or EU for the foreseeable future, maybe never.

Plus Puigdemont has such a punchable face.

Normally the ones most likely to chuck "Franco" into any soundbite they can give to the press too.

Good post.

 


Optimistic as ever

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View Beanyboysmd's Profile Beanyboysmd Flag 31 Oct 17 9.15pm Send a Private Message to Beanyboysmd Add Beanyboysmd as a friend

Catalonia is in an impossible situation, there is no way to have a legal referendum, so any ref is illegal. So even if its what the people want, how do they go about it?

What is not acceptable is "Well its what the people want but we cant give it to you, so...sorry...", that goes against the UN charter.

The annoying thing is if we were talking about some poor, African country, we would bbe all over this and calling it oppression, but if its in a nice, cultured place in Western Europe, somehow its fine to take away any road to self determination and smashing the eye socket of old ladies who want to vote to get away from a country that are prepared to smash the eye socket of people who want to vote...

Who thing has been horrifying to watch, those poor powerless people...

 

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View tome's Profile tome Flag Inner Tantalus Time. 31 Oct 17 9.30pm Send a Private Message to tome Add tome as a friend

Originally posted by Beanyboysmd

Catalonia is in an impossible situation, there is no way to have a legal referendum, so any ref is illegal. So even if its what the people want, how do they go about it?

What is not acceptable is "Well its what the people want but we cant give it to you, so...sorry...", that goes against the UN charter.

The annoying thing is if we were talking about some poor, African country, we would bbe all over this and calling it oppression, but if its in a nice, cultured place in Western Europe, somehow its fine to take away any road to self determination and smashing the eye socket of old ladies who want to vote to get away from a country that are prepared to smash the eye socket of people who want to vote...

Who thing has been horrifying to watch, those poor powerless people...

I think the main challenge is to make sure governments are geared towards the values and outcomes that matter to the civilian population, rather than their own self-aggrandisement or that of the allies they tend to use (need?) to get into power. It often seems to be more about money than much else.

There should be a way to have more open government, with a mandate based on outcomes and values rather than missold technical solutions.

 


A one and a two...

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View Barcelona eagle's Profile Barcelona eagle Flag Cubelles 31 Oct 17 9.38pm Send a Private Message to Barcelona eagle Add Barcelona eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Beanyboysmd

Catalonia is in an impossible situation, there is no way to have a legal referendum, so any ref is illegal. So even if its what the people want, how do they go about it?

What is not acceptable is "Well its what the people want but we cant give it to you, so...sorry...", that goes against the UN charter.

The annoying thing is if we were talking about some poor, African country, we would bbe all over this and calling it oppression, but if its in a nice, cultured place in Western Europe, somehow its fine to take away any road to self determination and smashing the eye socket of old ladies who want to vote to get away from a country that are prepared to smash the eye socket of people who want to vote...

Who thing has been horrifying to watch, those poor powerless people...

I get what you are saying Beanyboysmd, but as I said in an earlier post where does self determination start and end. What if my town decides to stay, why should an almost majority (last count 49.3% want independence) decide for the rest of us.
They're main gripe boils down to Money. That being said, and as much as I love this country, it has serious institutionalised racism, severe and in your face corruption and a good percentage still think of Franco as a saint.

I have a feeling that it is self imploding a tad and that there are absolutely no winners in this, bar maybe a few politicians.

Have I mentioned how Puigdemont has such a
punchable face?

 

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View Beanyboysmd's Profile Beanyboysmd Flag 31 Oct 17 11.00pm Send a Private Message to Beanyboysmd Add Beanyboysmd as a friend

Originally posted by Barcelona eagle

I get what you are saying Beanyboysmd, but as I said in an earlier post where does self determination start and end. What if my town decides to stay, why should an almost majority (last count 49.3% want independence) decide for the rest of us.
They're main gripe boils down to Money. That being said, and as much as I love this country, it has serious institutionalised racism, severe and in your face corruption and a good percentage still think of Franco as a saint.

I have a feeling that it is self imploding a tad and that there are absolutely no winners in this, bar maybe a few politicians.

Have I mentioned how Puigdemont has such a
punchable face?

You are absolutely right, the issue is where does self determination start and end? My opinion is that if your town wanted to become independent, then yes it should. There is no reason not to if that's what the people genuinely want and they think their government no longer suits them, and they identify themselves as a culture or group, then that wouldn't be a problem. It would be a hard sell to talk your town into it, but there is no reason they couldn't. It would be a stupid country and would be very reliant on the UK but that would be their problem, not ours...

And the 49.3% is the problem, the poll could be either way, but you wont know for sure unless you have a referendum, polls have up to a 5% margin of error so it could be 55%/45% or even 60% and it could be either way! They need a referendum just for that at least, even if its non binding.

Is it down to money? Yeah almost everything is, Barcelona has vast funds diverted on stupid projects around Madrid and a phasing project started in Spain a while ago to divert trading activity from Catalonia to Southern Spain. But 25 years ago polls were only 5% so it must be on a way bigger level than we think it is.

Is his face punchable? I thought he just had a proper vanilla face, like you could only describe it to the police as "a face" with no features whatsoever...

 

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View Beanyboysmd's Profile Beanyboysmd Flag 31 Oct 17 11.12pm Send a Private Message to Beanyboysmd Add Beanyboysmd as a friend

Worth knowing by the way because I hear this in certain, similar but in no way the same situations. A country is not allowed to vote for the separation of a part of its country. The UN consider it an atrocity. So in the case of Catalonia, Spain voting for Catalonia to be independent is a massive no-no...

If that rule wasn't in place, then governments could dispose of parts of the country that don't make them any money and could result in abject poverty for the dispelled area. I know that hardly applies when its parts of western Europe but it does make sense. Can you imagine if we forced Northumberland out of England against its will because the rest of us didn't want to fund it anymore?

Like I said thought I would bring it up because its interesting, and because its the reason Spain can't just vote for Catalonia to be independent, even if that's what they want...

 

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