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March 19 2019 7.54pm

Left and Right at each other's throat again

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View PalazioVecchio's Profile PalazioVecchio Flag south pole 16 Feb 19 10.25pm Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio Add PalazioVecchio as a friend

in the past we have seen the Spanish Civil war, Post Versailles Treaty Germany tear itself apart on the streets, the Cold War with SuperStates threatening each other for decades....

but on the streets of places like London, i do not recall in my lifetime, such animosity between Left and Right as i have seen in the last few years.

30 years ago it was a joke and a laugh over a pint in the pub, now it seems that all the humour has left the debate and both sides seem intent on point scoring, sh.1t stirring and open hostility.

personal view : sigh, oh no not again. This does not end pleasantly.

The Karl Marx grave just got desecrated up in Highgate. We have seen similar levels of hatred for Thatcher after her death.

a simple question for those who applaud these actions : what do you get if you win ?

[Link]

 


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View sitdownstandup's Profile sitdownstandup Flag 17 Feb 19 9.28am Send a Private Message to sitdownstandup Add sitdownstandup as a friend

its good to hear from someone not suporting either side. It seems as tho most people who voice a political opinion are either right or left. im sure a lot of people look at the hysterics and just wonder about it. i understand both sides have grievances but the way people talk to each other esp reading some of the stuff on hol and how aggressive it can be just makes me question both the left and the right.

 


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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 17 Feb 19 9.41am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

in the past we have seen the Spanish Civil war, Post Versailles Treaty Germany tear itself apart on the streets, the Cold War with SuperStates threatening each other for decades....

but on the streets of places like London, i do not recall in my lifetime, such animosity between Left and Right as i have seen in the last few years.

30 years ago it was a joke and a laugh over a pint in the pub, now it seems that all the humour has left the debate and both sides seem intent on point scoring, sh.1t stirring and open hostility.

personal view : sigh, oh no not again. This does not end pleasantly.

The Karl Marx grave just got desecrated up in Highgate. We have seen similar levels of hatred for Thatcher after her death.

a simple question for those who applaud these actions : what do you get if you win ?

[Link]

Power shifts through demographic change make this inevitable. Some of the people who supported and enabled this stuff are unlikely not to also pay a price.

Skirmishes aside, I think it will happen in the US and mainland Europe before it happens here though....obviously I could be wrong.

We could call what is happening in France right now a precursor.....though it's a bit different.


Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2019 9.41am)

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 17 Feb 19 10.33am Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

I condemn the vandalising of Karl Marx's grave in the same manner as those that attacked Churchill's statue or war memorials.

The people who do this are morons. The people behind the people who do this want to provoke the other side into retaliation and escalation. They believe that creating anarchy will further their cause and swell their numbers.

Thankfully as I have said many times the history of this country is that the vast majority of people do not support extremism from any side.

It may look frightening that black shirts march through the east end but Mosley's party was a complete electoral failure. Openly hard left and far right candidates do not do well in elections and have to resort to hiding in more moderate parties.

I trust the good common sense of the people we will have are ups and downs but we are not France which has spent the last 200 years revolting in one way or another.

For those that think it is bad at the moment I am not trying to minimise the ugliness of it but it is no different to the seventies when we had the SWP and the NF. When the dust settles these groups will not be elected let alone in power.

Finally I find it telling that when advocates speak of the rise of extremism they frequently refer to what's going in in the USA or Europe citing this or that party. That makes my point it is happening over there and not here. The day to start worrying is when they start winning elections in this country.

Edited by Badger11 (17 Feb 2019 10.35am)

 


One more point

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 17 Feb 19 11.15am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

I condemn the vandalising of Karl Marx's grave in the same manner as those that attacked Churchill's statue or war memorials.

The people who do this are morons. The people behind the people who do this want to provoke the other side into retaliation and escalation. They believe that creating anarchy will further their cause and swell their numbers.

Thankfully as I have said many times the history of this country is that the vast majority of people do not support extremism from any side.

It may look frightening that black shirts march through the east end but Mosley's party was a complete electoral failure. Openly hard left and far right candidates do not do well in elections and have to resort to hiding in more moderate parties.

I trust the good common sense of the people we will have are ups and downs but we are not France which has spent the last 200 years revolting in one way or another.

For those that think it is bad at the moment I am not trying to minimise the ugliness of it but it is no different to the seventies when we had the SWP and the NF. When the dust settles these groups will not be elected let alone in power.

Finally I find it telling that when advocates speak of the rise of extremism they frequently refer to what's going in in the USA or Europe citing this or that party. That makes my point it is happening over there and not here. The day to start worrying is when they start winning elections in this country.

Edited by Badger11 (17 Feb 2019 10.35am)

I think you are ignoring demographic shifts. You aren't talking about the same homogeneous set of people who all tend to behave similarly from generation to generation but a collection of significantly sized different groups growing and reducing at different rates with generally different cultural expectations.

However, this kind of thing never happens in countries that are doing economically well

While we definitely have a lot of people struggling the reality is that while people can avoid confrontation and get by they will do that.

However the problems within society aren't going to minimise from what I can see. All I see ahead is increasing balkanization and eventually that only results in one thing.


Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2019 11.33am)

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 17 Feb 19 12.02pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I think you are ignoring demographic shifts. You aren't talking about the same homogeneous set of people who all tend to behave similarly from generation to generation but a collection of significantly sized different groups growing and reducing at different rates with generally different cultural expectations.

However, this kind of thing never happens in countries that are doing economically well

While we definitely have a lot of people struggling the reality is that while people can avoid confrontation and get by they will do that.

However the problems within society aren't going to minimise from what I can see. All I see ahead is increasing balkanization and eventually that only results in one thing.


Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2019 11.33am)

Maybe I am more optimistic about the future, at least I hope so.

Once we have left the EU immigration will settle down to more manageable levels and I believe we will thrive economically outside the EU. This I hope will take the sting out of the extremists and they will be left howling in the wind.

 


One more point

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 17 Feb 19 12.09pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

Maybe I am more optimistic about the future, at least I hope so.

Once we have left the EU immigration will settle down to more manageable levels and I believe we will thrive economically outside the EU. This I hope will take the sting out of the extremists and they will be left howling in the wind.

We are going to see or the next lot in will anyway.... but the signs are already there as far as I'm concerned.

The people you refer to as extremists...on whatever side are just representating their own demographics. The old way to keep them quiet was the danegeld, the modern way is the welfare state.

But like the danegeld that only works for so long.

The vote to leave the EU was definitely a vote against freedom of movement for sure. However the immigration of Europeans isn't going to be causing the problems I mentioned.

That immigration remains unaffected and I don't see that changing.

However, leaving the EU will..if I had to bet..economically probably be the better option.

I see the EU breaking apart into smaller fractions in the future. Not being apart of that will lessen the damage.

We might end up rejoining the northern fraction at that point.


Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2019 12.13pm)

 

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View PalazioVecchio's Profile PalazioVecchio Flag south pole 17 Feb 19 12.28pm Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio Add PalazioVecchio as a friend

Originally posted by sitdownstandup

its good to hear from someone not supporting either side. .

as a believer in low taxes, low government spending, meritocracy, proper punishments for crimes, workers getting to keep the fruit of their labours - and them being better off than longterm spongers, the nuclear family, the free market, patriotism with a small p, care for the elderly, and controlled immigration...therefore i am proudly right wing.

but first and foremost i believe in democracy, rule of law, and moderate civility in public life.

This thread is about nutters who shout-down a meeting, vandalise statues, refuse to accept facts or arguments, riot in the streets, murder politicians like jo cox, openly support isis, homophobia, man-hating feminists (and woman hating chauvinists) , and all the other left/right looneys who cannot give any respect to anybody who does not agree with their dogma....at each others throat. Boring.

 


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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 17 Feb 19 12.43pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

as a believer in low taxes, low government spending, meritocracy, proper punishments for crimes, workers getting to keep the fruit of their labours - and them being better off than longterm spongers, the nuclear family, the free market, patriotism with a small p, care for the elderly, and controlled immigration...therefore i am proudly right wing.

but first and foremost i believe in democracy, rule of law, and moderate civility in public life.

This thread is about nutters who shout-down a meeting, vandalise statues, refuse to accept facts or arguments, riot in the streets, murder politicians like jo cox, openly support isis, homophobia, man-hating feminists (and woman hating chauvinists) , and all the other left/right looneys who cannot give any respect to anybody who does not agree with their dogma....at each others throat. Boring.

I reckon you probably covered 90 percent of Hol's political talking points in one post.

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 17 Feb 19 12.53pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

We are going to see or the next lot in will anyway.... but the signs are already there as far as I'm concerned.

The people you refer to as extremists...on whatever side are just representating their own demographics. The old way to keep them quiet was the danegeld, the modern way is the welfare state.

But like the danegeld that only works for so long.

The vote to leave the EU was definitely a vote against freedom of movement for sure. However the immigration of Europeans isn't going to be causing the problems I mentioned.

That immigration remains unaffected and I don't see that changing.

However, leaving the EU will..if I had to bet..economically probably be the better option.

I see the EU breaking apart into smaller fractions in the future. Not being apart of that will lessen the damage.

We might end up rejoining the northern fraction at that point.


Edited by Stirlingsays (17 Feb 2019 12.13pm)

So it was you I spotted with the Sandwich board. I should have introduced myself.

 


One more point

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag Wisbech, England 17 Feb 19 1.01pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

So it was you I spotted with the Sandwich board. I should have introduced myself.

Yeah, it is a bit downbeat isn't it....I don't think I'm crazy but then again that's what they all say.

 

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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Online Flag Croydon 17 Feb 19 1.07pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Yeah, it is a bit downbeat isn't it....I don't think I'm crazy but then again that's what they all say.

Honestly Stirling will you leave Karl's statue alone ?


 

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