Where Cameron went wrong was that he openly supported and touted for a Remain situation. He and the Cabinet members should have stepped aside and not canvassed either way. By nailing his colours to the mast he had no option but to step aside when Leave won, thereby implying that he was not a person who could deliver what the electorate wanted, only what he wanted.

hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing.

Cameron gets slated but the reality was that all conventional political thinking was around the notion, 'it is the economy stupid'. And it had led to him emerging victorious from the Scottish Indy referendum.

He had to pick a side. And Remain looked, based on very, very flawed polling methodology, the winning option. It had the vast majority of organised political support, it had almost 100% backing from public figures from across the spectrum.

Should have been a nailed-on cert to win.

But where Remain got it vastly wrong, and even those on the Leave side never truly grasped the scale of it, was the vote itself was primarily about identity. People saw it, and still do, as something defining them on a much deeper level than just the impact on their wallets. Plus Remain never truly promoted the benefits of the EU. In fact, a huge swathe of them conceded, time after time, how it needed reforming. Nothing positive about the vision of what it could potentially represent.

Ultimately, and as pat and seemingly shallow as it might seem, the vote was between those who wanted a Red passport and those who wanted a traditional Blue/Black. The core question being how you defined yourself as an individual.

I truly never understood how much the notion of being a citizen of the European Union meant to many of those on the Remain side. But ultimately, it was what it came down to. And why so many still whinge and bitch now. Many on the Remain side truly felt a pain I never even considered. And whilst my heart still pumps piss for them given the abuse heaped on those of us on the Leave side by many of them, I can at least acknowledge the impact Leave winning had.

A choice. British or European. And the impact on your bank account, for once, relegated to a lesser consideration.

Edited by Matov (02 Mar 2023 11.59am)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

I am not demanding anything. You brought this "dictionary" into the discussion, and now you are using excuses to try to justify why you won't provide details. It's up to you. If you can, you will. If you can't, you won't.

It wasn't the 1930 election that was fixed, but those that followed and saw Hitler become a dictator. If you don't think using terror as a political weapon isn't fixing elections then I do.

Of course, we need government to be open and transparent in its decision-making. Collectively. Not all the strands of opinion that when added together produce the collective decision. It's not in our ultimate interests to tie the hands of our representatives or ask them to vote against their conscience. They aren't delegates. They are representatives and must be totally free to decide what's best.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Are you saying that I made up the dictionary definition?

In your previous post you said it is well known that early 1930s elections were rigged, now you are saying the 1930 election wasn’t!Certainly the few elections and referendums following Hitler becoming leader were rigged, I’ve never said otherwise.

Any reasonable person would want to know how their MPs have voted on various issues, it is a key factor in deciding whether to vote for them or not.

NI had privileged access to Europe by its single market membership, so it is logical especially with easing the rules, that it now has the best of both worlds.

but Great Britain for 'reasons' doesn't and will not, investors wishing to access the single market will invest in NI.

Its an admittance from the British Prime Minister that brexit is bad for Great Britain.

NI can sit on the deal as they were perfectly well off with the protocol in the first place.

Sorry but this is just meaningless waffle.

You believe that the protocol made NI "perfectly well off "?

Maybe you are being sarcastic and I am not seeing it

Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.