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January 29 2022 12.46pm

Why Can't The French Stop Them Coming?

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View cryrst's Profile cryrst Flag Chatham 29 Nov 21 5.46pm Send a Private Message to cryrst Add cryrst as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

Again, happy to be corrected but from what I can make out, the French authorities are the ones taking the lead in terms of the criminal investigation. Map on the BBC seems to indicate the sinking took place almost half-way between the UK and France but the reports all seem to say 'just north of Calais'.

A mixed picture.

No you shouldnt be happy to be corrected matov.
A certain type of political poster on here is never wrong.
Maybe 3 or 4 of them

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 29 Nov 21 5.47pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio


and now we are onto the blame game.


if somebody slit her wrists, do you blame the ambulance crew if she dies ?


the British government did not put those refugees onto that dinghy.

The harsh truth is that if somebody is attempting to break into your property and die on their way to commit the crime, then the owner of the property has zero obligation to them. If they manage to climb over the fence and then injure themselves, it becomes a more dubious moral dilemma and the notion of 'duty of care' kicks in but if people choose to leave a place of safety, which France is, and deliberately seek to commit a criminal act, then the onus of responsibility for the consequences of that falls firmly on the individual, no matter how tragic those consequences are.

 


In 1967, when Polish mercenary Rafal Ganowicz was asked what it felt like to take human life, replied: "I wouldn't know, I've only ever killed communists."

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 29 Nov 21 6.01pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by palace99

have you seen how long the French coast is? It's not like they are all crossing from Calais.

Ultimately if people are desperate, and most of them are, they will always find a point to cross. It is impossible to police such a large coast line

The French authorities should look into who is buying all these boats, that maybe a starting point.

 


One more point

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 29 Nov 21 6.38pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

The French authorities should look into who is buying all these boats, that maybe a starting point.

Apparently a local merchant has been, and they have now stopped, I guess under pressure. Doubtless, though, other ways will be found.

 

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View Matov's Profile Matov Flag 29 Nov 21 7.58pm Send a Private Message to Matov Add Matov as a friend

Trying to stop people buying boats and so on is ignoring the basic reality that as long as people know that once they make it here then they have almost zero chance of being removed, then its not going to stop.

The UK has two solutions.

The first is to just register people when they turn up, give them a NI number and tell them that if they don't claim or commit a crime for 5 years then all will be fine. To be fair, if people are willing to risk crossing the channel then they have a certain something about them. Probably far worse migrants to have here.

The second is to round them up, once they make it ashore, put them in camps and process their claims on the basis that if they are rejected, its immediate deportation or else kept locked up until such a time as they can be sent off.

 


In 1967, when Polish mercenary Rafal Ganowicz was asked what it felt like to take human life, replied: "I wouldn't know, I've only ever killed communists."

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 29 Nov 21 10.45pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Matov

Trying to stop people buying boats and so on is ignoring the basic reality that as long as people know that once they make it here then they have almost zero chance of being removed, then its not going to stop.

The UK has two solutions.

The first is to just register people when they turn up, give them a NI number and tell them that if they don't claim or commit a crime for 5 years then all will be fine. To be fair, if people are willing to risk crossing the channel then they have a certain something about them. Probably far worse migrants to have here.

The second is to round them up, once they make it ashore, put them in camps and process their claims on the basis that if they are rejected, its immediate deportation or else kept locked up until such a time as they can be sent off.

I don't like illegal immigration, especially of this kind, any more than anyone else.

I find the whole situation very difficult to come to any conclusions about. We have international and moral obligations, but we also have to expect help from our neighbours, and not blind eyes. This problem won't be solved alone, and bickering won't help. How to stop the trafficking gangs seems critical, and we can't do that from here.

I watched some of Newsnight on the evening that that large group drowned. There was an ex head of the Border Force there, on the harbourside in Dover, who was convinced we need to move to Australian style offshore processing, which sorted out their problem. However, the more the conversation went on, the less credible this seemed. Where could we take them? As it apparently takes a very long time for the processing, there would need to be huge facilities available. If I heard correctly as around 75% establish refugee status, what would be the point?

So I really don't know how we move forward and don't envy those who have to decide how we try.

 

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View Spiderman's Profile Spiderman Online Flag Horsham 30 Nov 21 8.43am Send a Private Message to Spiderman Add Spiderman as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I don't like illegal immigration, especially of this kind, any more than anyone else.

I find the whole situation very difficult to come to any conclusions about. We have international and moral obligations, but we also have to expect help from our neighbours, and not blind eyes. This problem won't be solved alone, and bickering won't help. How to stop the trafficking gangs seems critical, and we can't do that from here.

I watched some of Newsnight on the evening that that large group drowned. There was an ex head of the Border Force there, on the harbourside in Dover, who was convinced we need to move to Australian style offshore processing, which sorted out their problem. However, the more the conversation went on, the less credible this seemed. Where could we take them? As it apparently takes a very long time for the processing, there would need to be huge facilities available. If I heard correctly as around 75% establish refugee status, what would be the point?

So I really don't know how we move forward and don't envy those who have to decide how we try.

Very good post WE. I did not see Newsnight but if it was Tony Smith speaking, he is excellent
, he was in charge of the BF responsibilities during the Olympic, the one Senior Manager I had confidence in, probably as he had worked his way up.
Co-operation is needed throughout Europe and beyond, if human trafficking is to be stopped ( not sure this will ever be possible unfortunately). This is not a Brexit issue as it has been going on for years and we have rarely been able to remove people.
The idea of an Australian system has been around for years, I am in favour but
as you say too many pitfalls . As I have said before the removal process takes so long, due mainly to the numerous appeals and also attempting to get documentation from relevant governments., even if an asylum application is refused it is difficult to approach the applicants government, as they would then be aware ( or have a good guess) that he/she has applied for asylum here.
You see we can agree on things

Edited by Spiderman (30 Nov 2021 8.44am)

 

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View Forest Hillbilly's Profile Forest Hillbilly Flag in a hidey-hole 30 Nov 21 12.34pm Send a Private Message to Forest Hillbilly Add Forest Hillbilly as a friend

I read in the FT in the last day or two, some reporter had interviewed a couple of migrants living on the northern French coast, asking why they were so determined to get to the UK. The consensus seemed to be that the French (and other countries they'd been through) treated them so badly, it was tantamount to forcing them to move onto their nearest neighbour,...the end stop being the UK.

Probably not the whole story, but there were enough similar responses to 'get a vibe' at their treatment

Edited by Forest Hillbilly (30 Nov 2021 12.35pm)

 


,.,.,..,

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 30 Nov 21 1.01pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Spiderman

Very good post WE. I did not see Newsnight but if it was Tony Smith speaking, he is excellent
, he was in charge of the BF responsibilities during the Olympic, the one Senior Manager I had confidence in, probably as he had worked his way up.
Co-operation is needed throughout Europe and beyond, if human trafficking is to be stopped ( not sure this will ever be possible unfortunately). This is not a Brexit issue as it has been going on for years and we have rarely been able to remove people.
The idea of an Australian system has been around for years, I am in favour but
as you say too many pitfalls . As I have said before the removal process takes so long, due mainly to the numerous appeals and also attempting to get documentation from relevant governments., even if an asylum application is refused it is difficult to approach the applicants government, as they would then be aware ( or have a good guess) that he/she has applied for asylum here.
You see we can agree on things

Edited by Spiderman (30 Nov 2021 8.44am)

Yes, we can, probably more than we both know.

fingers crossed for tonight!

 

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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Online Flag Croydon 30 Nov 21 3.29pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

What has become of Britain?

This appalling contempt for human life is down to Johnson, Patel, Farage and the rest of the Brexit xenophobes.

"Hastings RNLI lifeboat crew blocked from going out to sea by people angry at them rescuing refugees."

 

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 30 Nov 21 4.04pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Forest Hillbilly

I read in the FT in the last day or two, some reporter had interviewed a couple of migrants living on the northern French coast, asking why they were so determined to get to the UK. The consensus seemed to be that the French (and other countries they'd been through) treated them so badly, it was tantamount to forcing them to move onto their nearest neighbour,...the end stop being the UK.

Probably not the whole story, but there were enough similar responses to 'get a vibe' at their treatment

Edited by Forest Hillbilly (30 Nov 2021 12.35pm)

I mention this before, a friend is a Social Anthropologist and as she married a guy from Nigeria (she is white) and they have kids she has taken a professional interest in migrants. She has also had 2 books published and was a prominent Windrush protestor, basically she if a fully paid up member of the Lefty party.

Anyway she is currently undertaking a study of migrant lives in Paris and as much as it most have pained her she says that the French treat them appallingly compared to us. She is not a fan of Boris either but the French are far worse.

Make of that what you will.

 


One more point

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View steeleye20's Profile steeleye20 Online Flag Croydon 30 Nov 21 4.22pm Send a Private Message to steeleye20 Add steeleye20 as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

I mention this before, a friend is a Social Anthropologist and as she married a guy from Nigeria (she is white) and they have kids she has taken a professional interest in migrants. She has also had 2 books published and was a prominent Windrush protestor, basically she if a fully paid up member of the Lefty party.

Anyway she is currently undertaking a study of migrant lives in Paris and as much as it most have pained her she says that the French treat them appallingly compared to us. She is not a fan of Boris either but the French are far worse.

Make of that what you will.

She thinks we treat people better and she is a prominent Windrush protester?

Some of them have died waiting for their compensation only 5% actually have got any.


 

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