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May 26 2022 4.02am

Tulse Hill may be cancelled

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 24 Mar 22 1.32am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

Ever read a book?

The slave trade had devastating effects in Africa. Economic incentives for warlords and tribes to engage in the slave trade promoted an atmosphere of lawlessness and violence. Depopulation and a continuing fear of captivity made economic and agricultural development almost impossible throughout much of western Africa.
A large percentage of the people taken captive in Africa were women in their childbearing years and young men who normally would have been starting families. The European slavers usually left behind persons who were elderly, disabled, or otherwise dependentógroups who were least able to contribute to the economic health of their societies.

I won't refer to north Africa here because both in terms of slaves and in terms of genetics the populations are considerably different from what is commonly referred to as Africa in people's minds....as stated, the north Africans of the time were slave traders of Europeans amongst others.

I'll state....just because you always seem to focus upon Europeans (no surprise there), the Arab slave trade was bigger and existed for much longer than the European one.

Also Africa's own internal slave trade, existed long before, continued on and in some cases still does.

The excuse of de-population of the continent of Africa from slavery to explain their lack of civilisational progress is highly dubious in my view.

I've said this before, but when the Europeans first turned up in Africa, before any slave trade had been set up, they found, to their amazement, that the wheel hadn't been invented. The idea that the difference in developmental progress was their fault beggar's belief. They were still fighting their wars with spears and cloth based shields.

So the evidence of massive civilisational divide was already in Africa before Europeans turned up.....it already discounts your argument straight from the off.

Then you have the numbers involved....and it's fair to say the numbers are hard to estimate and are disputed...however the continent of Africa is huge and from the numbers I've seen on slavery the estimated numbers come to around 11-15 million for the European and 15-20 million from the Arab....that's all spread over centuries. It doesn't hold up as a civilizational block, especially as the elites and intellectual class wouldn't have regularly been amongst the slaves.

Obviously I regard slavery as a human debasement and crime. However, it was commonplace in the world, and it was the British who outlawed it first.

In fact, instead of blaming others it is likely that without the investments from foreign cultures into Africa that the civilisational divide would have continued apace.

The attempts to blame the west for Africa's failures reminds me very much of the 'Life of Brian' clip where they are blaming the Romans for their ills.

[Link]

Edited by Stirlingsays (24 Mar 2022 2.23am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View dreamwaverider's Profile dreamwaverider Flag 24 Mar 22 8.03am Send a Private Message to dreamwaverider Add dreamwaverider as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

You would think that the Socialist Workers Paradise of Lambeth might have other things to worry about but apparently not.

Lambeth Council are crackpots. They are distorted leftie loons. I would suggest any really stupid idea like this will almost certainly go ahead.

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 24 Mar 22 8.08am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

I won't refer to north Africa here because both in terms of slaves and in terms of genetics the populations are considerably different from what is commonly referred to as Africa in people's minds....as stated, the north Africans of the time were slave traders of Europeans amongst others.

I'll state....just because you always seem to focus upon Europeans (no surprise there), the Arab slave trade was bigger and existed for much longer than the European one.

Also Africa's own internal slave trade, existed long before, continued on and in some cases still does.

The excuse of de-population of the continent of Africa from slavery to explain their lack of civilisational progress is highly dubious in my view.

I've said this before, but when the Europeans first turned up in Africa, before any slave trade had been set up, they found, to their amazement, that the wheel hadn't been invented. The idea that the difference in developmental progress was their fault beggar's belief. They were still fighting their wars with spears and cloth based shields.

So the evidence of massive civilisational divide was already in Africa before Europeans turned up.....it already discounts your argument straight from the off.

Then you have the numbers involved....and it's fair to say the numbers are hard to estimate and are disputed...however the continent of Africa is huge and from the numbers I've seen on slavery the estimated numbers come to around 11-15 million for the European and 15-20 million from the Arab....that's all spread over centuries. It doesn't hold up as a civilizational block, especially as the elites and intellectual class wouldn't have regularly been amongst the slaves.

Obviously I regard slavery as a human debasement and crime. However, it was commonplace in the world, and it was the British who outlawed it first.

In fact, instead of blaming others it is likely that without the investments from foreign cultures into Africa that the civilisational divide would have continued apace.

The attempts to blame the west for Africa's failures reminds me very much of the 'Life of Brian' clip where they are blaming the Romans for their ills.

[Link]


Edited by Stirlingsays (24 Mar 2022 2.23am)

I see you are back on your Africans are genetically inferior rant

Donít argue with me argue with The Encyclopaedia Brittanica from where I cut and pasted my quote.

 

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View dreamwaverider's Profile dreamwaverider Flag 24 Mar 22 8.15am Send a Private Message to dreamwaverider Add dreamwaverider as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

To be clear. The slaves taken were the strongest, fittest and brightest. If you lose millions such people over the course of hundreds of years it takes a lot to recover. Africa continues to suffer the effects of such a prolonged drain. So yes, it remains relevant and there is an argument for support to help The continent try to regain some ground.

The only equivalent in Europe I can think of was the Black Death.

And your logic goes on today. In the shape of professional sport.

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 24 Mar 22 8.18am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

In the mid 16th century our forests and those of Ireland were denuded for ship building.

It was like the reverse of natural selection, we took the biggest, strongest and healthiest

You can easily observe the effects of that still today. Thinner forests, poorer trees and faltering recovery.

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 24 Mar 22 8.21am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by dreamwaverider

And your logic goes on today. In the shape of professional sport.

I suppose so. And medical staff but that is more an Asian problem (over 30% of NHS doctors).

 

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View ASCPFC's Profile ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 24 Mar 22 8.26am Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

In the mid 16th century our forests and those of Ireland were denuded for ship building.

It was like the reverse of natural selection, we took the biggest, strongest and healthiest

You can easily observe the effects of that still today. Thinner forests, poorer trees and faltering recovery.

Actually most were already cut down 100s of years previously for furnaces in the bronze and iron age. I got fed up with listening to the silly history of Ireland about it. When researched I found the British navy largely used teak from India. I was genuinely surprised. I had believed all the English Oak propaganda too.
Funnily enough, large landed and royal estates preserved the forests we have as us plebs would certainly have preferred to be warm in winter, rather than freeze to death. So we better thank our landlords for their conservation efforts and apologise to India for deforestation.

 


I used to put the manager's name in front of Red and Blue but got fed up with changing it. If someone cool becomes our manager then maybe..

Red and Blue Army!

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View Teddy Eagle's Profile Teddy Eagle Flag 24 Mar 22 8.45am Send a Private Message to Teddy Eagle Add Teddy Eagle as a friend


No plans to rename Gipsy Hill?

 

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View becky's Profile becky Flag over the moon 24 Mar 22 8.48am Send a Private Message to becky Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add becky as a friend

Linking the last 2 topics - did you know that although the song "Rule Britannia" is generally held to be about British colonialism and empire building and the British slave, it was in fact a poem set to music, to celebrate the rise and development of the Royal Navy to the level where the Barbary pirates no longer raided either British coastal fishing vessels or the coast to take their slaves.

Hence, the "Britians never, never, never shall be slaves"

 


A stairway to Heaven and a Highway to Hell give some indication of expected traffic numbers

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 24 Mar 22 8.54am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by ASCPFC

Actually most were already cut down 100s of years previously for furnaces in the bronze and iron age. I got fed up with listening to the silly history of Ireland about it. When researched I found the British navy largely used teak from India. I was genuinely surprised. I had believed all the English Oak propaganda too.
Funnily enough, large landed and royal estates preserved the forests we have as us plebs would certainly have preferred to be warm in winter, rather than freeze to death. So we better thank our landlords for their conservation efforts and apologise to India for deforestation.

Yes, most deforestation was Bronze Age but clearances for agriculture primarily

My point stands though. Of the trees we had post 1,000 BC, we denuded them for ship building, the railways and the wars. And always took the best. Just like African slavery.

And unlike France and Germany we did nothing to replace them.

 

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View Slimey Toad's Profile Slimey Toad Flag Karsiyaka, North Cyprus 24 Mar 22 9.04am Send a Private Message to Slimey Toad Add Slimey Toad as a friend

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle


No plans to rename Gipsy Hill?

Gipsy is in the woke lexicon. If it was Diddycoy Hill that would be a different matter.

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 24 Mar 22 9.04am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by becky

Linking the last 2 topics - did you know that although the song "Rule Britannia" is generally held to be about British colonialism and empire building and the British slave, it was in fact a poem set to music, to celebrate the rise and development of the Royal Navy to the level where the Barbary pirates no longer raided either British coastal fishing vessels or the coast to take their slaves.

Hence, the "Britians never, never, never shall be slaves"

News to me and really interesting

The below may have some bearing on modern US relations with North Africa

The Barbary threat led directly to the United States founding the United States Navy in March 1794. While the United States did secure peace treaties with the Barbary states, it was obliged to pay tribute for protection from attack. The burden was substantial: from 1795, the annual tribute paid to the Regency of Algiers amounted to 20% of United States federal government's annual expenditures.

 

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