You are here: Home > Message Board > Football Talk > Black Managers
December 8 2022 4.34pm

Black Managers

Previous Topic | Next Topic


Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >

Play our World Cup 2022 Prediction League!

World Cup Prediction League 2022

Sponsor a forum or Advertise on the HOL!


 

View PalazioVecchio's Profile PalazioVecchio Flag south pole 26 Oct 22 8.54am Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio Add PalazioVecchio as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

A lot, if not most women will go for status if they can get it. High status males will mostly go for beauty.....at the high end ethnicity becomes tradable depending upon the individuals and the crowd they mix in.

David Bowie went for Iman.....a very beautiful black woman. Why so few footballers follow his example ?

Is it all part of some racist conspiracy ? to keep black women down and underprivileged. The financial freedoms of football success being denied them. White Privilege among WAG's. Maybe the 'taking of the knee' should somehow reflect this ?

 


7 points from Manchester last season

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View taylors lovechild's Profile taylors lovechild Flag 26 Oct 22 12.42pm Send a Private Message to taylors lovechild Add taylors lovechild as a friend

I think many people underestimate how important it is to see someone from your cultural background in positions of power. I can guarantee there will be black players who see Vieira's success and think, 'wait, I can be a manager?' It's easy to sit here and throw out right-wing tropes about 'wokeness' or 'political correctness' but speak to successful black people and people of colour and many, if not all, will tell you they were inspired by seeing other black people's achievements. It's the same way Britain's working class no longer see skilled jobs or University as 'not for the likes of us' because other working class folk have seen social mobility over the last 60 or 70 years. What we need is more positive role models like Vieira, not more quotas. How we achieve that is a more complicated question, but the more successful he is the wider the gap in the door becomes.

As a side note, I know most people on here seem to sit on the other side of the political wall to me, but I do have to say, while the majority just have a difference of opinion, there are a few who are quite clearly just racist. They're the only reason I'm happy Sunak is in power, just to pi$$ them off

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View Behind Enemy Lines's Profile Behind Enemy Lines Flag Sussex 26 Oct 22 12.51pm Send a Private Message to Behind Enemy Lines Add Behind Enemy Lines as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Apparently, it's fine for black players to be massively over represented as football players...way way over their percentage in the population, but it's not fine for them to be under represented off the pitch.

Yep, I noticed the same thing...anyway, those of us who can remember the seventies will recall how few black players there were - Hillaire, Clyde Best, Ade Coker etc. and yet today we have a plethora of coloured players in the teams. It's a matter of time and natural progression - as today's players leave playing a certain percentage will be keen on managing and consequently in twenty years there will be more. But it won't happen overnight, which I get the impression is what the article wants.

 


hats off to palace, they were always gonna be louder, and hate to say it but they were impressive ALL bouncing and singing.

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View PalazioVecchio's Profile PalazioVecchio Flag south pole 26 Oct 22 1.05pm Send a Private Message to PalazioVecchio Add PalazioVecchio as a friend

Originally posted by taylors lovechild

They're the only reason I'm happy Sunak is in power, just to pi$$ them off


i'm happy Sunak is in power to shove it at Labour. The Tories have always had a better record on 'inclusivity' to Labour. Labour who talk the talk and are mostly led by straight white men.

 


7 points from Manchester last season

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View taylors lovechild's Profile taylors lovechild Flag 26 Oct 22 1.57pm Send a Private Message to taylors lovechild Add taylors lovechild as a friend

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

i'm happy Sunak is in power to shove it at Labour. The Tories have always had a better record on 'inclusivity' to Labour. Labour who talk the talk and are mostly led by straight white men.

I imagine Labour are just disappointed Liz Truss didn't stay in power. By the way, the Tories aren't more diverse or inclusive. One in five Labour MPs are black, Asian or mixed race, compared to one in fifteen in the Tory party. However, Cameron did do a good job of increasing the representation of minority groups (who represented less than 2% of party members prior to 2010) and it is true that Tories win in terms of having leaders who are not white men. Maybe football could look to the Tories at how to somewhat artificially increase the number of people in prominent positions?

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 26 Oct 22 2.46pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Sometimes it doesn't even require parody.

[Link]

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View TheBigToePunt's Profile TheBigToePunt Flag 26 Oct 22 8.31pm Send a Private Message to TheBigToePunt Add TheBigToePunt as a friend

Originally posted by taylors lovechild

I think many people underestimate how important it is to see someone from your cultural background in positions of power. I can guarantee there will be black players who see Vieira's success and think, 'wait, I can be a manager?' It's easy to sit here and throw out right-wing tropes about 'wokeness' or 'political correctness' but speak to successful black people and people of colour and many, if not all, will tell you they were inspired by seeing other black people's achievements. It's the same way Britain's working class no longer see skilled jobs or University as 'not for the likes of us' because other working class folk have seen social mobility over the last 60 or 70 years. What we need is more positive role models like Vieira, not more quotas. How we achieve that is a more complicated question, but the more successful he is the wider the gap in the door becomes.

As a side note, I know most people on here seem to sit on the other side of the political wall to me, but I do have to say, while the majority just have a difference of opinion, there are a few who are quite clearly just racist. They're the only reason I'm happy Sunak is in power, just to pi$$ them off

You are referencing the 'If you can't see it then you can't be it' approach here.

The counter argument (which I find far more compelling personally) is that the thing you want to be inspired by is the character, effort and morals of the successful individual. If your focusing on comparatively superficial features like race then you are looking for the wrong thing in a person, are willfully denying yourself the inspiration available in all those other excellent people who happen not to share your racial group, and condemning yourself to the endless logic flaws of identity politics.

Those flaws reveal themselves ever more as the philosophy rolls out. Let's say you're a English black player who half fancies management, but you can't see any black managers so it doesn't seem realistic to you. Then someone suggests that Vieira might inspire you, and at first he does. After all, he's black, and you're black too.

Then you get to thinking, he's French, and your English. No black guys from your country have ever been Premier league managers. Then someone tells you about Paul Ince, and at first you feel like perhaps your ambition might be possible after all.

Then you get to thinking. You are of African descent, with a Nigerian name. Ince is of West Indian descent, a very different culture. Back to square one. And that's before you factor in religion, sexuality, political beliefs...

In the end you will realise that, once you consider all the boxes that must be ticked, you can't see anyone 'like' you in management. When that happens, you either give up the dream, perhaps blaming it on the obvious prejudice against people like you, or you realise that there is nobody else like you, even if you're white, straight and male, and engage with the world as an individual on your own merits. Who knows, perhaps if you try hard enough and demonstrate enough laudable human virtues, you may end up inspiring someone.

This isn't theoretical by the way. No sooner had the England womens team been lauded by the identity politics-minded for inspiring girls to play football (because of course no young girl ever got inspired by a male player, nor did any young boy get inspired by the lionesses) than they realised the team was predominantly white. They are now, apparently, not a source of inspiration for black girls, but an example of the obstacles facing black people. And that's the thing; you can never tick enough boxes for the 'representation' model to be satisfied.

I don't suggest that the human mind can ever fail to register race, gender etc, and Christ knows we are hardwired to in-group preferences to some extent. The point is to lead ourselves and each other away from defining people by race, not further into it.

Finally, personally speaking I've always been left of centre politically, and have never found it possible to vote tory up to now. However, I cannot recognise anything I ever believed in or respected within this current political ideology, for what that's worth.

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View taylors lovechild's Profile taylors lovechild Flag 27 Oct 22 8.58am Send a Private Message to taylors lovechild Add taylors lovechild as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

You are referencing the 'If you can't see it then you can't be it' approach here.

The counter argument (which I find far more compelling personally) is that the thing you want to be inspired by is the character, effort and morals of the successful individual. If your focusing on comparatively superficial features like race then you are looking for the wrong thing in a person, are willfully denying yourself the inspiration available in all those other excellent people who happen not to share your racial group, and condemning yourself to the endless logic flaws of identity politics.

Those flaws reveal themselves ever more as the philosophy rolls out. Let's say you're a English black player who half fancies management, but you can't see any black managers so it doesn't seem realistic to you. Then someone suggests that Vieira might inspire you, and at first he does. After all, he's black, and you're black too.

Then you get to thinking, he's French, and your English. No black guys from your country have ever been Premier league managers. Then someone tells you about Paul Ince, and at first you feel like perhaps your ambition might be possible after all.

Then you get to thinking. You are of African descent, with a Nigerian name. Ince is of West Indian descent, a very different culture. Back to square one. And that's before you factor in religion, sexuality, political beliefs...

In the end you will realise that, once you consider all the boxes that must be ticked, you can't see anyone 'like' you in management. When that happens, you either give up the dream, perhaps blaming it on the obvious prejudice against people like you, or you realise that there is nobody else like you, even if you're white, straight and male, and engage with the world as an individual on your own merits. Who knows, perhaps if you try hard enough and demonstrate enough laudable human virtues, you may end up inspiring someone.

This isn't theoretical by the way. No sooner had the England womens team been lauded by the identity politics-minded for inspiring girls to play football (because of course no young girl ever got inspired by a male player, nor did any young boy get inspired by the lionesses) than they realised the team was predominantly white. They are now, apparently, not a source of inspiration for black girls, but an example of the obstacles facing black people. And that's the thing; you can never tick enough boxes for the 'representation' model to be satisfied.

I don't suggest that the human mind can ever fail to register race, gender etc, and Christ knows we are hardwired to in-group preferences to some extent. The point is to lead ourselves and each other away from defining people by race, not further into it.

Finally, personally speaking I've always been left of centre politically, and have never found it possible to vote tory up to now. However, I cannot recognise anything I ever believed in or respected within this current political ideology, for what that's worth.

The Conservative Party had barely anyone who was black, Asian, or mixed race in the party prior to 2010. Cameron wanted to address this so they started taking steps like putting two candidates for a seat when it became vacant, with at least one having to be either a woman or a member of a minority group. Skip forward 12 years and we have a PM of Indian descent, women and black MPs on the Tory front bench. You give people opportunities and they will take them. It's why Eton churns out so many MPs, not because these people are more intelligent, or better qualified, but because they see their peers getting these roles and receive the support and backing of teachers and family.

This is what is so often misunderstood about the term 'white privilege', it is simply saying all other things being equal if you are white you will not be judged based on your skin colour. Sadly, as can be evidenced on these forums, there are still people that harbour some 1970s Alf Garnett view of black people as being lazy, unstable and inferior.

Bringing the conversation back round to football, you only have to look at the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, and Rooney to see jobs in the top leagues will now be given to inexperienced ex-pros, so perhaps we will see more black managers soon anyway. Personally I couldn't care less what someone's race is if they do a good job, but I do believe that everyone should at least be afforded the same opportunities and someone like Vieira is far more likely to know if that's the case than the likes of us.

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View MrRobbo's Profile MrRobbo Flag Purley 27 Oct 22 1.50pm Send a Private Message to MrRobbo Add MrRobbo as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

This article is fairly standard stuff as far as the BBC sports desk is concerned nowadays; disproportionate attention to the same old subject matter, covered to a fairly low intellectual standard and exclusively through the prism of identity politics.

As others have said, if you're determined to categorise people only by their race (a preoccupation that used to be the exclusive domain of racists, but which now underpins the 'woke' philosophy) then you could just as easily point out the disproportionate number of black players, and even managers, in relation to the population, or take the same stats as evidence of a failure to launch within the 'black community' (whatever the hell that phrase even means), but of course that's not how the BBC present it.

Notwithstanding, I do take the point that as most managers are former players, the ratio of black players to managers is noticeable. What I can't abide, however, is the practice of starting with a conclusion (it's all down to racism) rather than investigating the matter objectively. We get nowhere like that, in football or wider society.

Regarding football management vacancies, my instinct is that football is too competitive and valuable an industry to deliberately restrict its own access to talent by discounting people based on race. Clubs hire and fire people from all over the world at a rate of knots in pursuit of even the slightest advantage in management, coaching, technical and support staff. Club owners come from all over the world, from lots of cultures and industries, and the idea they would all, despite their different backgrounds and fierce competition with each other nevertheless conspire to restrict opportunities for black candidates, even when those candidates might add value and give them an advantage worth tens of millions, just doesn't stack up.

Ultimately however, as with any aspect of life, we can only understand whether there is a problem if the matter is properly and scientifically investigated. How many black applicants were there for vacancies in management? What were thier scores at interview compared to other candidates? Is there a correlation showing high scores at interview but failure to get job offers? If you don't have this information then you can only guess, or worse, presume. Which leads back to the BBC.

The tragedy here is that the BBC doesn't need to be an ideological echo chamber. It doesn't have to pander to a particular political mindset, because it doesn't have to sell its product, and is still read by a range of people, if only because we've all paid for it already anyway. It could be head and shoulders above the rest of the mainstream media just because of that freedom, be the place we all go to and trust to set out not only the facts, but the contrasting ways one could assess those facts. It could raise the general standards of public discussion.

Instead we get this same old fixed-position bollocks, and more sadly still, people like Vieira, who are willing and able to articulate their thoughts, are denied access to the reasonable counter arguments that might develop thought and understanding, as are we in turn. The conversation just never happens, and we all miss out.

Excellently put.

It would be great if instead of the player vs manager percentages. We could understand where and what the barriers are.

There are countless black players who were fantastic leaders on the pitch, no reason they wouldn't make great managers. But as the big toe Punt said we need to interrogate where the issues are.

I remember a similar article from Hayden Mullins, saying the 'ratios didn't feel right'. But also not offering any insight as to how he manged to go from a player to a coach to a manager. WAs it harder because he was black, what doors were closed to him, and how to open them etc.

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 27 Oct 22 4.44pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

I don't buy into the black players need role models to get into management argument. That may apply to a black person outside of football but I don't agree it applied to players.

To become a PL player you have to have ability and much more, self belief. Many don't make it simply because they are not driven enough and get distracted by women and booze.

So the argument that a person (of any colour) made it against all the odds to become a player suddenly becomes a wallflower when it comes to management doesn't really hold true.

I don't know why black players are not becoming managers but I doubt it is a lack of self belief or even role models. If they show the same self determination that got them to be footballers they should at least get to some level coaching.


 


One more point

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View Slimey Toad's Profile Slimey Toad Flag Karsiyaka, North Cyprus 28 Oct 22 10.16am Send a Private Message to Slimey Toad Add Slimey Toad as a friend

Originally posted by MrRobbo

Excellently put.

It would be great if instead of the player vs manager percentages. We could understand where and what the barriers are.

There are countless black players who were fantastic leaders on the pitch, no reason they wouldn't make great managers. But as the big toe Punt said we need to interrogate where the issues are.

I remember a similar article from Hayden Mullins, saying the 'ratios didn't feel right'. But also not offering any insight as to how he manged to go from a player to a coach to a manager. WAs it harder because he was black, what doors were closed to him, and how to open them etc.

Without deliberately adding fuel to a hotly contested debate, but does anyone here have an idea what these barriers are? Are they institutional, are clubs or coaching courses consciously or un-consciously creating hurdles for black players to get their badges and apply for managerial jobs?

Or are there mental barriers, social pressure barriers? I fail to see that if a black player, say Raheem Sterling, goes down the usual routes a white player would do he is limited by these alleged barriers.

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply
View MrRobbo's Profile MrRobbo Flag Purley 28 Oct 22 3.21pm Send a Private Message to MrRobbo Add MrRobbo as a friend

Originally posted by Slimey Toad

Without deliberately adding fuel to a hotly contested debate, but does anyone here have an idea what these barriers are? Are they institutional, are clubs or coaching courses consciously or un-consciously creating hurdles for black players to get their badges and apply for managerial jobs?

Or are there mental barriers, social pressure barriers? I fail to see that if a black player, say Raheem Sterling, goes down the usual routes a white player would do he is limited by these alleged barriers.

In reality they are going to be multifaceted. And some will be binary and others difficult to articulate at all.

I'd be interested to find out about intent. Whenever this topic raises its head, you never have any express coming out saying they were blocked/prevented from perusing a career after management.

I happened to be in the same room as Claude Makelele a year or so ago. He was, and still is, working in a development role at Chelsea. I asked him if he fancied replacing Lampard, and he laughed. Why would he want the stress and pressure of that job. Developing hte kids is much more rewarding, and you're not going to get sacked!

 

Alert Alert a moderator to this post Edit this post Quote this post in a reply

 

Page 2 of 3 < 1 2 3 >

Previous Topic | Next Topic

You are here: Home > Message Board > Football Talk > Black Managers