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June 8 2023 10.48pm

Vieira vs Roy V2.0

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View thetopgeezer's Profile thetopgeezer Flag Streatham Hill 17 Apr 23 8.09pm Send a Private Message to thetopgeezer Add thetopgeezer as a friend

I'm not sure we'll ever got to the bottom of the "end of a difficult run, Vieira would have won these games anyway" debate. We are fortunate enough to only have to live one life so not having to try living through all the possibilities suits me fine. However I've become a bit sensitive to some chatter led by Viera's fan club (e.g. Garth Crooks) which is starting to grate.

So here are some facts that I have noticed.

1. Vieira was one of the coolest managers in the league
2. Roy is one of the uncoolest
3. A lot of pundits are Vieira era
4. We have had a bit of luck to win all 3 games
5. But we are playing a few yards higher up the pitch with masses more shots
6. We are not indulging in "ticcy tacky look at how impressive our possession stats are" boring nonsense at the back
7. The last 3 teams played are weaker than the previous bunch
8. Eze and Olise are on fire. Admittedly only when they put down their PlayStation reenactments or whatever is in their heads in the first half

But for me the clincher was "patterns". When we lost to City, Gary Neville said he couldn't see any patterns to our play. That's the moment I thought that Vieira might not be that good. A few patterns came to mind. Our pacey wingers crossing in to centre forwards running on. Balls through a high line with our forwards running on to them. Corners to the back post headed back in. Corners to the near post for a flick on (who remembers Andy Thorn).

I don't know enough about football to know if Neville meant this but I know there were no obvious plans apart from what appeared to be defense. Maybe that's what a defensive midfielder gets you.

I can't help but wish Vieira well and thank him for some fun times but thank God Roy came back to put a but of process in place. And to have enough flair to put Ebe back out there.

How cool is that?

 

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View palaceexile's Profile palaceexile Flag hastings 17 Apr 23 8.41pm Send a Private Message to palaceexile Add palaceexile as a friend

Good post.
But maybe a more interesting question than 'Would we have won these 3 games under Vieira' is 'would we have won these 3 games under the old Roy?'
We seem so much more adventurous than under his previous managership. I know we have had an injection of new players - but Roy also seems to have changed his approach to games.
Long may it continue.

 

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View Red & Blue Pharaoh's Profile Red & Blue Pharaoh Flag South London 18 Apr 23 4.57pm Send a Private Message to Red & Blue Pharaoh Add Red & Blue Pharaoh as a friend

We also have better players now compared to when he was last with us... that will make a big difference to his approach to games.


Originally posted by palaceexile

Good post.
But maybe a more interesting question than 'Would we have won these 3 games under Vieira' is 'would we have won these 3 games under the old Roy?'
We seem so much more adventurous than under his previous managership. I know we have had an injection of new players - but Roy also seems to have changed his approach to games.
Long may it continue.

 


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View silvertop's Profile silvertop Flag Portishead 18 Apr 23 5.15pm Send a Private Message to silvertop Add silvertop as a friend

The thing that maddened me under PV was that we had plenty possession and plenty attack but the final pass was always rubbish. Direct to defender and then back to trying to get the ball back.

We are now putting in more dangerous passes leading to more shots [as opposed to none].

Same players.

You tell me if that is down to playing weaker teams who are not set up as good defensively, or down to better coaching?

 

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View ripleyeagle's Profile ripleyeagle Flag Ripley Surrey 18 Apr 23 5.18pm Send a Private Message to ripleyeagle Add ripleyeagle as a friend

I know itís not PC but Garth Crooks comments and Ian Wright not giving Roy any credit for our turn around points to the usual ( not enough black managers) being appointed.I personally like Patrick and thought he was a tad unlucky but we all know that in this day and age it is very much a result based business.Managers have been sacked for less poor runs than what we were on when SP pulled the trigger.

 

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View Lanzo-Ad's Profile Lanzo-Ad Flag Lanzarote 18 Apr 23 5.29pm Send a Private Message to Lanzo-Ad Add Lanzo-Ad as a friend

Originally posted by ripleyeagle

I know itís not PC but Garth Crooks comments and Ian Wright not giving Roy any credit for our turn around points to the usual ( not enough black managers) being appointed.I personally like Patrick and thought he was a tad unlucky but we all know that in this day and age it is very much a result based business.Managers have been sacked for less poor runs than what we were on when SP pulled the trigger.

You are right about his backup boys, the fact is that if a manager is top class he will get a top job, whatever colour he is, just like a player, unfortunately, Vieira, Ince, Campbell etc haven't been very good.

 


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View Red & Blue Pharaoh's Profile Red & Blue Pharaoh Flag South London 18 Apr 23 6.20pm Send a Private Message to Red & Blue Pharaoh Add Red & Blue Pharaoh as a friend

I think the argument is that black managers aren't readily given as many opportunities. If there were more opportunities for black managers, there'd be more chance of some succeeding.

And when there are obvious examples like Frank Lampard, who seems to fail upwards, you can probably understand some of the frustration.


Originally posted by Lanzo-Ad

You are right about his backup boys, the fact is that if a manager is top class he will get a top job, whatever colour he is, just like a player, unfortunately, Vieira, Ince, Campbell etc haven't been very good.

 


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View ambrose7's Profile ambrose7 Flag Croydon 18 Apr 23 10.45pm Send a Private Message to ambrose7 Add ambrose7 as a friend

Originally posted by palaceexile

Good post.
But maybe a more interesting question than 'Would we have won these 3 games under Vieira' is 'would we have won these 3 games under the old Roy?'
We seem so much more adventurous than under his previous managership. I know we have had an injection of new players - but Roy also seems to have changed his approach to games.
Long may it continue.

The 'old Roy' was rotating whichever of his 35 year old centre backs were fit alongside a central midfielder... He had Ayew, Riedewald and Luka in his top 7 appearance makers in his last season.

Some of it was turgid but he played the way that was sensible with the team he had.

 


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View Vaibow's Profile Vaibow Flag vancouver/croydon 19 Apr 23 12.51am Send a Private Message to Vaibow Add Vaibow as a friend

The words coming out of players is all I need to know that PV wasn't the manager we needed...

 


This was once a quality forum....

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View Wilbraham413's Profile Wilbraham413 Flag 19 Apr 23 3.52am Send a Private Message to Wilbraham413 Add Wilbraham413 as a friend

For whatever reason, mostly lack of investment, Roy's last tenure got very stale by the time he left. PV was a breath of fresh air last season, but again, maybe just because of better investment. It all went off the rails this season, to the point where we were as bad as we were under FdB, maybe worse.

We hadn't won a home match since October. We didn't win any match in what, 10+ tries? No shot on goal in 3 straight games, a new record. Worst running stats in the league by far, no one else close. Named on one website as the worst club to watch in all of Europe, and no argument from any of us fans. How much worse could it get?

All things considered, it seems obvious now that Roy is a significantly better PL manager than PV is. True, we've had some good fortune in the 3 games under Roy, and we had some sh-t luck in some games under PV. That being said, would anyone seriously argue that they want to go back in time and retain PV, and not replace him with Roy? Hiring Roy was a difficult, uncomfortable, and absolutely correct decision.

Edited by Wilbraham413 (19 Apr 2023 3.53am)

 


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View VinceHilaire's Profile VinceHilaire Flag London 19 Apr 23 6.53am Send a Private Message to VinceHilaire Add VinceHilaire as a friend

Interesting video on YouTube about how some of the players were not happy under the management of PV and Zaha went to the board to ask for a change.

Here is the link:
[Link]

 

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View thetopgeezer's Profile thetopgeezer Flag Streatham Hill 19 Apr 23 8.28am Send a Private Message to thetopgeezer Add thetopgeezer as a friend

Thanks for the link. It makes sense. I did some research and of the new "ball" players Roy only had Eze (injured by the end of course). Signed with or after PV:

Andersen
Guhei
Doucoure
Olise

That's a substantially different team to Roy's last one and identical to the one that had zero shots, zero patterns of play and zero wins in a load of games and has just won three on the bounce. Throw in the dressing room nonsense and the verdict is in.

Crooks is an idiot.

 

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