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People's obsession with the academy

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TheBigToePunt Flag 06 Nov 23 5.07pm Send a Private Message to TheBigToePunt Add TheBigToePunt as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

I will try to re-watch the Neville interview at some point, but if the £5m a year quoted above is anything to go by, that's a tiny expense for a club or our size. One Wan-Bissaka a decade would cover it.

It looks even better value when you compare what £5m would do for you in the transfer window, which is obviously next to nothing.

I don't really follow your logic that having a better academy won't lead to us producing better quality players more frequently, whether that's for the first team or to sell on - surely the most obvious consequence of improving the academy is exactly that?

Of course there are variables, but as a general trend I think it's almost inevitable and I think it's already happening; Rak-Sakyi is today's Sullay Kai Kai, Jake O'Brien is today's Ryan Innis, David Ozoh is today's Hiram Boateng - the quality of output is improving all the time.

That interview is worth watching. I wish I could find it now. The figures were something like £30 - 40m spent so far on the academy, and there was a figure of over £10m spent just on the pitches (can't remember if that was part of the overall spend or in addition to it). I remember Neville being gobsmacked by the costs.

I can't remember if Parsh broke down the running costs, but £5m a year seems to be the average. The upfront costs of building it are of course a one-off, but even so, between building it and running it, it will have cost around £100m in ten years' time.

Whereas, all things being equal, the main stand has a good chance of paying for itself in a 10-15 year period, the academy is simply a cost unless it produces players that either get sold for good money (far more than the £1m we apparently made for O'Brien) or which save us from spending money on transfer fees.

Again, I wholly support the investment in the academy. My point is that nobody should underestimate the size of that investment.

I agree that we should, in theory, now produce better players than we used to as a result of the academy. My earlier point was that most clubs tend to have (i.e. can afford) a youth set-up commensurate to the standard of their first team. The better your first team, the more you can spend on your youth set up but, at the same time, the better your first team is, the harder it is for a youth player to make it at your club.

Maybe, as you say, Rak-Sakyi is today's Sullay Kai Kai, Jake O'Brien is today's Ryan Innis, David Ozoh is today's Hiram Boateng. Each of those individuals appears to be an upgrade on their predecessor, but not necessarily be any closer to breaking into our first team, because that too has been upgraded. Rak-Sakyi has played a bit, but that is only because Olise is injured. The gap between the youth team and first team may well remain as wide as ever.

Chelsea have produced (and generally not found a significant use for) Gallagher, Loftus-Cheek, Hudson-Odoi, Tomori and Abraham. That seems to be the gold standard of academy products. All those players would have improved our team (two of them did) and/or made us a big fee, but the fact we now have a Cat 1 academy doesn't mean we will attract and develop players that good.

I expect we will still get the next level down, probably, because Chelsea and Arsenal remain more attractive. Spurs too, probably. Then we have to compete with West Ham, Fulham, and even Brentford. If we had a s*** facility, crap coaches and poor scouting then we would lose out to all of those clubs, but that doesn't mean having a great facility, good coaching and thorough scouting will trump those other clubs. They all have that stuff too. Thats why I feel we have spent the money just to keep up, rather than to obtain any advantage.

Basically, I am very happy with the investment, and would be thrilled to see it pay off, but would be surprised if it resulted in a marked increase in the number of players that make it at Palace.


Edited by TheBigToePunt (06 Nov 2023 5.24pm)

 

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southnorwoodhill Flag 06 Nov 23 5.18pm Send a Private Message to southnorwoodhill Add southnorwoodhill as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

That interview is worth watching. I wish I could find it now. The figures were something like £30 - 40m spent so far on the academy, and there was a figure of over £10m spent just on the pitches (can't remember if that was part of the overall spend or in addition to it). I remember Neville being gobsmacked by the costs.

I can't remember if Parsh broke down the running costs, but £5m a year seems to be the average. The upfront costs of building it are of course a one-off, but even so, between building it and running it, it will have cost around £100m in ten years' time.


Edited by TheBigToePunt (06 Nov 2023 5.13pm)

Less than the employment of Benteke and Sahko then. A bargain.

 

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TheBigToePunt Flag 06 Nov 23 5.21pm Send a Private Message to TheBigToePunt Add TheBigToePunt as a friend

Originally posted by southnorwoodhill

Less than the employment of Benteke and Sahko then. A bargain.

Surely the question is not just how the costs of the academy compare to the cost of transfers, but whether the academy produces players that do as good a job as those we buy.

However frustrating and overpaid Benteke and Sakho were, the academy will have to produce players that good. Not easy.

 

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Davepalace707 Flag Northumberland 06 Nov 23 5.26pm Send a Private Message to Davepalace707 Add Davepalace707 as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

Surely the question is not just how the costs of the academy compare to the cost of transfers, but whether the academy produces players that do as good a job as those we buy.

However frustrating and overpaid Benteke and Sakho were, the academy will have to produce players that good. Not easy.

Fair point, also It’s not just the cost of the players that do ok, it’s also the cost of those that don’t (can think of a few ). Buying a player you’re taking a gamble.

 

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martin2412 Flag Living The Dream 06 Nov 23 8.00pm Send a Private Message to martin2412 Add martin2412 as a friend

Do these young kids who are playing in the cages around London even consider the facilities at a professional club ? I doubt it very much.

If they're offered a trial at Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs or Palace (cat A or not), I'm sure we would be last on their list, purely down to status, history and perception of the clubs.

All of these kids think that they're the next big thing, so they'd rather be a star for Arsenal than Palace. We just might get some cast-offs when reality hits home that they're not as good as they thought they were, and are released from their preferred club.

 

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southnorwoodhill Flag 06 Nov 23 8.30pm Send a Private Message to southnorwoodhill Add southnorwoodhill as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

Surely the question is not just how the costs of the academy compare to the cost of transfers, but whether the academy produces players that do as good a job as those we buy.

However frustrating and overpaid Benteke and Sakho were, the academy will have to produce players that good. Not easy.

Yes of course. As long as the scouting improves and the calibre of the youngsters along with it, we should be able to field the occasional player who makes the grade and steps up. I guess that's the plan. It certainly beats wasting good funds on dross like Mateta, Edouard, and Benteke, who to me, have or had no real affiliation with the club apart from an over generous salary.

 

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HKOwen Flag Hong Kong 06 Nov 23 11.32pm Send a Private Message to HKOwen Add HKOwen as a friend

Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow

I think signing a 16 year old and bringing them through is still relevant - we 'signed' Phillips, Banks, O'Brien, Reid, Balmer from Irish and Scottish clubs, but they're very much part of our academy, and if any make it to the first team would be considered graduates of the academy.

Brighton 'signed' Evan Ferguson and West Ham 'signed' Declan Rice' - I don't think anyone argues they are not products of the clubs though.

We also 'signed' Mitchell from Brentford when they decided to close the academy, and JRS from Chelsea when he was released - still very much our products.

O'Brien is not a Palace player, he was signed by a French club. His short time at Palace was spent on loan.

 


Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.

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Stirlingsays Flag 06 Nov 23 11.44pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by martin2412

Do these young kids who are playing in the cages around London even consider the facilities at a professional club ? I doubt it very much.

If they're offered a trial at Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs or Palace (cat A or not), I'm sure we would be last on their list, purely down to status, history and perception of the clubs.

All of these kids think that they're the next big thing, so they'd rather be a star for Arsenal than Palace. We just might get some cast-offs when reality hits home that they're not as good as they thought they were, and are released from their preferred club.

We have been in the Premiership for over ten years. Our reputation is growing.

Youngsters rarely have trials at just one club and there is a lot of trading between clubs and youngsters.

Palace are developing into a bigger club and the future is bright.

I see a top ten place this year.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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Isley46 Flag Sanderstead 07 Nov 23 12.35pm Send a Private Message to Isley46 Add Isley46 as a friend

Originally posted by TheBigToePunt

I can't remember if Parsh broke down the running costs, but £5m a year seems to be the average. The upfront costs of building it are of course a one-off, but even so, between building it and running it, it will have cost around £100m in ten years' time.

Whereas, all things being equal, the main stand has a good chance of paying for itself in a 10-15 year period, the academy is simply a cost unless it produces players that either get sold for good money (far more than the £1m we apparently made for O'Brien) or which save us from spending money on transfer fees.


Edited by TheBigToePunt (06 Nov 2023 5.24pm)

The EPPP Academy system was brought about to improve the standard of home grown players into the leagues and not just for the parent club - the original plan was to raise the standard of home grown player to a standard that would produce an international team that would win the world cup - During a kids academy journey this is usually outlined to them during their reviews(similar to learning a trade rather than learning to work for one employer). As such clubs receive yearly funding from the Premier league to run and maintain their academies - The funding given is reflects the academy standing (as such Cat 1's get the highest funding - Cat 4's the lowest) If a club unearths a gem that stays or a gem that they can sell on for profit then that's fantastic.

For those interested.

[Link]

[Link]

Can't find PL figures but Fulham has been a Cat 1 for some time and while they were in the championship this was their funding

[Link]

 

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TheBigToePunt Flag 07 Nov 23 1.14pm Send a Private Message to TheBigToePunt Add TheBigToePunt as a friend

Originally posted by Isley46

The EPPP Academy system was brought about to improve the standard of home grown players into the leagues and not just for the parent club - the original plan was to raise the standard of home grown player to a standard that would produce an international team that would win the world cup - During a kids academy journey this is usually outlined to them during their reviews(similar to learning a trade rather than learning to work for one employer). As such clubs receive yearly funding from the Premier league to run and maintain their academies - The funding given is reflects the academy standing (as such Cat 1's get the highest funding - Cat 4's the lowest) If a club unearths a gem that stays or a gem that they can sell on for profit then that's fantastic.

For those interested.

[Link]

[Link]

Can't find PL figures but Fulham has been a Cat 1 for some time and while they were in the championship this was their funding

[Link]

Thats very interesting, thanks.

As I understood it, an academy was mandatory for premier league clubs. I recall Brentford scrapping their youth setup altogether when they were out of the EPL (hence we got Mitchell). I presume they have had to set one up again now. I didn't appreciate that they got money towards it.

 

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ASCPFC Flag Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 07 Nov 23 9.03pm Send a Private Message to ASCPFC Add ASCPFC as a friend

I haven't heard many obsessed with the Academy. I didn't even watch the series to my chagrin. I'm slightly interested in how our youngsters do, I keep half an eye on it. That's about it. Is everyone else obsessed? Parish maybe, for a while. Maybe I'm the odd one and everyone else is collecting stickers or something?

 


Red and Blue Army!

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Brinscalleagle2 Flag Brinscall 07 Nov 23 9.38pm Send a Private Message to Brinscalleagle2 Add Brinscalleagle2 as a friend

Unfortunately it is not that easy .Our under 21 just got beat by Wimbledon 2-0 and our side contained the best we have got including Ebiowei , Ahamada,Franca,Ozoh and the rest.They all need to be more mature and experienced to get to Premiership level let alone League 2. We are doing a good job in producing good footballers but to produce Premiership level at around 21 years of age is very very rare. But if you don’t try you will never succeed.COYP

 

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