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npn Crowborough 11 Apr 16 5.56pm | |
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If we accept that there are an >200 billion galaxies in the universe that apparently (after a NASA google) gives at least 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets. When we are dealing with those sorts of numbers, I'd say that life, and for that matter intelligent life and, indeed technologically advanced intelligent life with the ability to travel vast distances, is not only possible, but pretty much a mathematical certainty. Of course whether they have been here, or have any interest in coming is a different matter. I'm not sure it would end well for us if they did visit, but I think they are there somewhere.
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Hrolf The Ganger 11 Apr 16 8.47pm | |
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Originally posted by npn
If we accept that there are an >200 billion galaxies in the universe that apparently (after a NASA google) gives at least 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 planets. When we are dealing with those sorts of numbers, I'd say that life, and for that matter intelligent life and, indeed technologically advanced intelligent life with the ability to travel vast distances, is not only possible, but pretty much a mathematical certainty. Of course whether they have been here, or have any interest in coming is a different matter. I'm not sure it would end well for us if they did visit, but I think they are there somewhere. Yes life is almost certainly out there somewhere. What I find puzzling is how so called experts and non experts alike think that they can comment on the likelihood of an alien visit to Earth. It is currently impossible to know the probability of such an event so anyone dismissing this possibility is being very naive.
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phil19750 Sundridge Park 12 Apr 16 9.29am | |
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Originally posted by rednblueblood
[Link] Interesting article, but I guess that there are simply so many UFO sightings that they become less than sensational news stories, if at all. The frustrating thing is that whatever anyone thinks it is, is purely specualtion. The fact that we think we know - but cannot prove it - has frustrated people since time began. Thanks for the link.
el burro sabe más que tú |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Apr 16 9.44am | |
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There are a number of 'intelligent' species here on earth, probably less 'intelligent' than humans (although the term intelligent is bias towards humans) and we've largely pushed them closer to extinction by our own 'intelligent plans' (which are of course self destructive and flawed long term). Whilst statistically the probability of life, and intelligent life, elsewhere in the universe is very close to a certainty the reality of the idea that they would just choose to travel the gulfs of space to visit us, reflects more our own egocentric view of the universe and need for 'a spiritual saviour' than the reality of experience - that it would be a serious undertaking (invariably about the self interest of that species). After all, we tended to travel to meet other intelligent humans with a view to exploiting and 'enslaving them' to our own benefit. Where we've found species inhabiting areas with valuable resources, we've tended to see the extermination of their eco-system and lives as acceptable. I'd imagine if any species is going to possess the technology and need to travel across the huge gulfs of space to come here, they're not going to consider us any more intelligent than the other species on the planet, and likely to be looking for 'resources' they require. The end result for humankind is likely to be on a par with Chimpanzees (gradual extinction except in areas where they can prove useful such as experimentation, testing, zoos, pets and a few sporadic reserves for curiosity and study. That's if they're intelligent by any system of definition that human. We've been killing dolphins and whales for 100 years despite increasing evidence of their intelligence without any necessity.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Apr 16 9.45am | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Yes life is almost certainly out there somewhere. What I find puzzling is how so called experts and non experts alike think that they can comment on the likelihood of an alien visit to Earth. It is currently impossible to know the probability of such an event so anyone dismissing this possibility is being very naive. Close to zero. If you're going to the effort and undertaking that involves interseller travel, its likely to be for something more than just buzzing around a bit, and putting things up some hicks bottom and then going home.
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matthau South Croydon 12 Apr 16 10.00am | |
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a dreamer looks out and an explorer looks within. smoke dmt.
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npn Crowborough 12 Apr 16 10.06am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Close to zero. If you're going to the effort and undertaking that involves interseller travel, its likely to be for something more than just buzzing around a bit, and putting things up some hicks bottom and then going home. Based on the assumption that other civilisations would find interstellar travel as difficult as we would which is, in turn, based on what we know about the way the universe works, which is changing constantly, and it's fair to assume that, given even another few thousand years (a blink of an eye in terms of existence) we may well be looking at methods of transport we've not even dreamed of yet.
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jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Apr 16 10.25am | |
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Originally posted by npn
Based on the assumption that other civilisations would find interstellar travel as difficult as we would which is, in turn, based on what we know about the way the universe works, which is changing constantly, and it's fair to assume that, given even another few thousand years (a blink of an eye in terms of existence) we may well be looking at methods of transport we've not even dreamed of yet. True, but its reasonable basic assumption that the rules of physics would be uncovered in more or less similar fashion, and with relative consistency. The problems of the speed of light and mass, wouldn't just not exist elsewhere. I don't think the universe would be too much different in conception or that there won't be changes in the laws of physics (or solutions to the problem) but that those require extensive development and breakthroughs to achieve (as well as development). When we built new ships, did we use them to just travel to other countries and altruistically view those people on other continents, or did we explore, conquer, exploit and destroy those cultures which we deemed 'lesser intelligent species' - Because it justified the expense of the ships we built in the first place. We build navies, not because we like sea travel, but because we want to protect our resources and status. Its not about making the world a better place, or the betterment of humanity. We pretend it was about exploration, but really it was all about wealth, power and resources. I'd say its more likely we'd be 'visited' because we have something they want or need, than 'curious interest'. I figure that, in such a conflict, with a species capable of that level of technology, humanity will have about 5-7 days tops.
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Hrolf The Ganger 12 Apr 16 10.49am | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
True, but its reasonable basic assumption that the rules of physics would be uncovered in more or less similar fashion, and with relative consistency. The problems of the speed of light and mass, wouldn't just not exist elsewhere. I don't think the universe would be too much different in conception or that there won't be changes in the laws of physics (or solutions to the problem) but that those require extensive development and breakthroughs to achieve (as well as development). When we built new ships, did we use them to just travel to other countries and altruistically view those people on other continents, or did we explore, conquer, exploit and destroy those cultures which we deemed 'lesser intelligent species' - Because it justified the expense of the ships we built in the first place. We build navies, not because we like sea travel, but because we want to protect our resources and status. Its not about making the world a better place, or the betterment of humanity. We pretend it was about exploration, but really it was all about wealth, power and resources. I'd say its more likely we'd be 'visited' because we have something they want or need, than 'curious interest'. I figure that, in such a conflict, with a species capable of that level of technology, humanity will have about 5-7 days tops. I think you are falling into the trap of applying human logic and current human experience to the subject.
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radsyrendot From Coventry now in Leicester 12 Apr 16 11.05am | |
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You'll probably find it's the SpaceX Dragon that docked with the ISS the other day ..it was chasing the iss 3 mins behind on the same trajectory Edited by radsyrendot (12 Apr 2016 11.07am) Edited by radsyrendot (12 Apr 2016 11.08am) Attachment: Screenshot_2016-04-12-11-02-20.png (408.53Kb)
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jamiemartin721 Reading 12 Apr 16 11.51am | |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
I think you are falling into the trap of applying human logic and current human experience to the subject. Very true, and the reason I am doing that, is because that's how intelligence is defined in relation to human behaviour and achievements. If we were to take a broader view of intelligent life, then there is no need to go into space to find it - it already exists here on the planet. Obviously, these are assumptions, but they're reasonable ones, given the evidence we have at hand, that the development of 'human like' intelligence would require certain factors of physiology that would resemble humans, and some kind of similar evolutionary process and experience. The likelihood, is at first, any development of interstellar travel, would require some kind of fundamental benefit to utilise - when its first developed. Obviously over time, it becomes cheaper and more available for less cost. But intitally, that break through, is going to be that species greatest achievement (and likely its most demanding in terms of commitment and effort). Now if they have 'human like' intelligence, that is either driven by a need, or serious want. When we explored the world, we weren't just 'curious' we had an eye towards the benefit of those sponsoring the explorations - Colonisation. And if they're capable of that kind of technology necessary to travel through space. Then we're going to resemble the tribes of Africa, Australia etc to them. And it didn't really go so well for them. So the hope would always be that they're not 'intelligent like humans are'. But then if we not looking for human like intelligence, then we don't need to look to the stars, we can look at our own world (Pall greater primates, Horses, Elephants, Dolphins and Whales all have reasonably demonstrable intelligent behaviour).
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Hrolf The Ganger 12 Apr 16 1.00pm | |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Very true, and the reason I am doing that, is because that's how intelligence is defined in relation to human behaviour and achievements. If we were to take a broader view of intelligent life, then there is no need to go into space to find it - it already exists here on the planet. Obviously, these are assumptions, but they're reasonable ones, given the evidence we have at hand, that the development of 'human like' intelligence would require certain factors of physiology that would resemble humans, and some kind of similar evolutionary process and experience. The likelihood, is at first, any development of interstellar travel, would require some kind of fundamental benefit to utilise - when its first developed. Obviously over time, it becomes cheaper and more available for less cost. But intitally, that break through, is going to be that species greatest achievement (and likely its most demanding in terms of commitment and effort). Now if they have 'human like' intelligence, that is either driven by a need, or serious want. When we explored the world, we weren't just 'curious' we had an eye towards the benefit of those sponsoring the explorations - Colonisation. And if they're capable of that kind of technology necessary to travel through space. Then we're going to resemble the tribes of Africa, Australia etc to them. And it didn't really go so well for them. So the hope would always be that they're not 'intelligent like humans are'. But then if we not looking for human like intelligence, then we don't need to look to the stars, we can look at our own world (Pall greater primates, Horses, Elephants, Dolphins and Whales all have reasonably demonstrable intelligent behaviour). One can speculate that evolution might be a constant in the universe and that creatures that can manipulate their environment and use technology might be similar to humans allowing for their local environment. There is no way to properly predict the frequency of life or even to know for sure, although unlikely, that we are not the only example.
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