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Midlands Eagle 13 Jun 19 6.08am
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC We are talking about the validity of the claim that the no deal split of the leave vote is a minority or not. I wouldn't mind betting that a huge majority of people are pretty clueless about exactly what a no deal exit actually means. Quite a few luminaries imply that it would be the end of the world whilst others say just the opposite that it would be a huge opportunity for the UK Rather than chucking out sound bites it would be nice to see or read a proper debate about the merits or otherwise of a no deal exit amongst not just MPs but also prominent industrialists who would explain exactly the pros and cons of this type of exit. My own view is that coverage of no deal disadvantages has been heavily influenced by vested interests and every time a vested interest complains about what no deal will mean for him and his industry there is no-one to put a counter argument

Midlands Eagle

13 Jun 19 6.08am

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

We are talking about the validity of the claim that the no deal split of the leave vote is a minority or not.

I wouldn't mind betting that a huge majority of people are pretty clueless about exactly what a no deal exit actually means. Quite a few luminaries imply that it would be the end of the world whilst others say just the opposite that it would be a huge opportunity for the UK

Rather than chucking out sound bites it would be nice to see or read a proper debate about the merits or otherwise of a no deal exit amongst not just MPs but also prominent industrialists who would explain exactly the pros and cons of this type of exit.

My own view is that coverage of no deal disadvantages has been heavily influenced by vested interests and every time a vested interest complains about what no deal will mean for him and his industry there is no-one to put a counter argument

Badger11 Beckenham 13 Jun 19 8.49am
Originally posted by Midlands Eagle I wouldn't mind betting that a huge majority of people are pretty clueless about exactly what a no deal exit actually means. Quite a few luminaries imply that it would be the end of the world whilst others say just the opposite that it would be a huge opportunity for the UK Rather than chucking out sound bites it would be nice to see or read a proper debate about the merits or otherwise of a no deal exit amongst not just MPs but also prominent industrialists who would explain exactly the pros and cons of this type of exit. My own view is that coverage of no deal disadvantages has been heavily influenced by vested interests and every time a vested interest complains about what no deal will mean for him and his industry there is no-one to put a counter argument Good post. A leaked civil service memo stating we're not ready for a no deal Brexit! How convenient it's leaked at this time. I agree I have yet to hear a good debate on the pros and cons of a no deal Brexit. Those that oppose it appear not to want Brexit in any form so not really an unbiased view. One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 13 Jun 19 8.49am

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

Good post. A leaked civil service memo stating we're not ready for a no deal Brexit! How convenient it's leaked at this time.

I agree I have yet to hear a good debate on the pros and cons of a no deal Brexit. Those that oppose it appear not to want Brexit in any form so not really an unbiased view.

One more point

Rudi Hedman Caterham 13 Jun 19 8.56am
Reminds me of 2010 after the election in Westminster square when several politicians didn’t know the difference between the U.K. debt and the budget deficit. COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 13 Jun 19 8.56am

Reminds me of 2010 after the election in Westminster square when several politicians didn’t know the difference between the U.K. debt and the budget deficit.

COYP

Badger11 Beckenham 13 Jun 19 9.21am
Are we seeing movement at last. Last night a Labour motion to rule out a no deal Brexit was defeated. If Mr Bercow follows his own rules that particular motion cannot be resubmitted during this parliament. Supporting the government were the DUP and some Labour rebels. The number of Tory rebels who voted against it were down on previous similar votes. This morning I heard a Remain Labour MP (his is in a Leave constituency) who voted with the government. Ignoring the political double talk I thought he voted against his own party to save his own skin. Is reality starting to sent in. Normally there are around 20+ Tory rebels last night there were around 10. So what happens now. I am not saying that last night's defeat for the Remainers means it's over and we leave without a deal. However I think this has done the new Tory PM a big favour. If the PM is seen to be reasonable in trying to re-negotiate a new deal and the EU is seen as inflexible then I do think that enough MPs will ultimately vote for a no deal.* I assume that the EU will realise this and will not want to be seen as a villain so maybe they will also be reasonable. *Labour's position if you can make sense of it is that they will negotiate a better deal. If the EU refuse to re-negotiate then that position is a hollow one. Edited by Badger11 (13 Jun 2019 9.24am) One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 13 Jun 19 9.21am

Are we seeing movement at last.

Last night a Labour motion to rule out a no deal Brexit was defeated. If Mr Bercow follows his own rules that particular motion cannot be resubmitted during this parliament.

Supporting the government were the DUP and some Labour rebels. The number of Tory rebels who voted against it were down on previous similar votes.

This morning I heard a Remain Labour MP (his is in a Leave constituency) who voted with the government. Ignoring the political double talk I thought he voted against his own party to save his own skin.

Is reality starting to sent in. Normally there are around 20+ Tory rebels last night there were around 10.

So what happens now.

I am not saying that last night's defeat for the Remainers means it's over and we leave without a deal.
However I think this has done the new Tory PM a big favour. If the PM is seen to be reasonable in trying to re-negotiate a new deal and the EU is seen as inflexible then I do think that enough MPs will ultimately vote for a no deal.*

I assume that the EU will realise this and will not want to be seen as a villain so maybe they will also be reasonable.

*Labour's position if you can make sense of it is that they will negotiate a better deal. If the EU refuse to re-negotiate then that position is a hollow one.

Edited by Badger11 (13 Jun 2019 9.24am)

One more point

W12 13 Jun 19 10.00am
The debate for me is whether no deal is any more damaging than not getting fully out of the EU in a meaningful way (remain, BRINO, Canada, Norway, blah blah). If you are like me and see globalism and mass migration as an existential threat to the UK and the wider west then I would take almost any level of economic pain to achieve this. It's just not about money for me. Even though getting out of the EU is only a first step to resolving the fundamental issues in this country it's an essential one.

W12 13 Jun 19 10.00am

The debate for me is whether no deal is any more damaging than not getting *fully* out of the EU in a meaningful way (remain, BRINO, Canada, Norway, blah blah).

If you are like me and see globalism and mass migration as an existential threat to the UK and the wider west then I would take almost any level of economic pain to achieve this. It's just not about money for me.

Even though getting out of the EU is only a first step to resolving the fundamental issues in this country it's an essential one.

DanH SW2 13 Jun 19 10.36am
Originally posted by W12 The debate for me is whether no deal is any more damaging than not getting fully out of the EU in a meaningful way (remain, BRINO, Canada, Norway, blah blah). If you are like me and see globalism and mass migration as an existential threat to the UK and the wider west then I would take almost any level of economic pain to achieve this. It's just not about money for me. Even though getting out of the EU is only a first step to resolving the fundamental issues in this country it's an essential one. You lot are really finding quite eloquent ways to be b*stards now aren't you. Really quite impressive.

DanH

SW2 13 Jun 19 10.36am

Originally posted by W12

The debate for me is whether no deal is any more damaging than not getting *fully* out of the EU in a meaningful way (remain, BRINO, Canada, Norway, blah blah).

If you are like me and see globalism and mass migration as an existential threat to the UK and the wider west then I would take almost any level of economic pain to achieve this. It's just not about money for me.

Even though getting out of the EU is only a first step to resolving the fundamental issues in this country it's an essential one.

You lot are really finding quite eloquent ways to be b*stards now aren't you. Really quite impressive.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 13 Jun 19 10.54am
Originally posted by W12 The debate for me is whether no deal is any more damaging than not getting fully out of the EU in a meaningful way (remain, BRINO, Canada, Norway, blah blah). If you are like me and see globalism and mass migration as an existential threat to the UK and the wider west then I would take almost any level of economic pain to achieve this. It's just not about money for me. Even though getting out of the EU is only a first step to resolving the fundamental issues in this country it's an essential one. Funny how people see things isn't it? I see globalisation as an inevitable consequence of human and technological evolution and to attempt to stand against it as futile as King Canute commanding the tide. If you face the inevitable then you must do your best to harness it's power to your advantage, and not retreat into a corner moaning about how things used to be better. No-one wants uncontrolled immigration but some immigration, when currently our birthrate is falling and our life expectancy increasing, is essential. If circumstances change then we too must adapt and change. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 13 Jun 19 10.54am

Originally posted by W12

The debate for me is whether no deal is any more damaging than not getting *fully* out of the EU in a meaningful way (remain, BRINO, Canada, Norway, blah blah).

If you are like me and see globalism and mass migration as an existential threat to the UK and the wider west then I would take almost any level of economic pain to achieve this. It's just not about money for me.

Even though getting out of the EU is only a first step to resolving the fundamental issues in this country it's an essential one.

Funny how people see things isn't it?

I see globalisation as an inevitable consequence of human and technological evolution and to attempt to stand against it as futile as King Canute commanding the tide.

If you face the inevitable then you must do your best to harness it's power to your advantage, and not retreat into a corner moaning about how things used to be better.

No-one wants uncontrolled immigration but some immigration, when currently our birthrate is falling and our life expectancy increasing, is essential. If circumstances change then we too must adapt and change.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

DanH SW2 13 Jun 19 10.56am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Funny how people see things isn't it? I see globalisation as an inevitable consequence of human and technological evolution and to attempt to stand against it as futile as King Canute commanding the tide. If you face the inevitable then you must do your best to harness it's power to your advantage, and not retreat into a corner moaning about how things used to be better. No-one wants uncontrolled immigration but some immigration, when currently our birthrate is falling and our life expectancy increasing, is essential. If circumstances change then we too must adapt and change. Exactly. Adapt or die. Or complain on the internet and die.

DanH

SW2 13 Jun 19 10.56am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Funny how people see things isn't it?

I see globalisation as an inevitable consequence of human and technological evolution and to attempt to stand against it as futile as King Canute commanding the tide.

If you face the inevitable then you must do your best to harness it's power to your advantage, and not retreat into a corner moaning about how things used to be better.

Exactly. Adapt or die. Or complain on the internet and die.

Hrolf The Ganger 13 Jun 19 12.41pm
Originally posted by W12 The debate for me is whether no deal is any more damaging than not getting fully out of the EU in a meaningful way (remain, BRINO, Canada, Norway, blah blah). If you are like me and see globalism and mass migration as an existential threat to the UK and the wider west then I would take almost any level of economic pain to achieve this. It's just not about money for me. Even though getting out of the EU is only a first step to resolving the fundamental issues in this country it's an essential one. I totally agree with you here.

Hrolf The Ganger

13 Jun 19 12.41pm

Originally posted by W12

The debate for me is whether no deal is any more damaging than not getting *fully* out of the EU in a meaningful way (remain, BRINO, Canada, Norway, blah blah).

Even though getting out of the EU is only a first step to resolving the fundamental issues in this country it's an essential one.

I totally agree with you here.

Hrolf The Ganger 13 Jun 19 12.42pm
Originally posted by DanH You lot are really finding quite eloquent ways to be b*stards now aren't you. Really quite impressive. And you aren't.

Hrolf The Ganger

13 Jun 19 12.42pm

Originally posted by DanH

You lot are really finding quite eloquent ways to be b*stards now aren't you. Really quite impressive.

And you aren't.

W12 13 Jun 19 1.23pm
Originally posted by DanH You lot are really finding quite eloquent ways to be bstards now aren't you. Really quite impressive. Bstards in what way?

W12 13 Jun 19 1.23pm

Originally posted by DanH

You lot are really finding quite eloquent ways to be b*stards now aren't you. Really quite impressive.

B*stards in what way?

Rudi Hedman Caterham 13 Jun 19 8.20pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I totally agree with you here. Yep. Selling our country for self interest. COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 13 Jun 19 8.20pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I totally agree with you here.

Yep. Selling our country for self interest.

COYP

SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 13 Jun 19 10.14pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman Yep. Selling our country for self interest. This is assuming globalisation fails. And that’s a big assumption. Personally I’d say ‘survival’ is more accurate, the way things are going, especially once automation really gets going. Less people power, more state reliance, more state power, more globalisation. Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 13 Jun 19 10.14pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Yep. Selling our country for self interest.

This is assuming globalisation fails. And that’s a big assumption. Personally I’d say ‘survival’ is more accurate, the way things are going, especially once automation really gets going. Less people power, more state reliance, more state power, more globalisation.

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

Maine Eagle USA 13 Jun 19 10.43pm
Originally posted by W12 The debate for me is whether no deal is any more damaging than not getting fully out of the EU in a meaningful way (remain, BRINO, Canada, Norway, blah blah). If you are like me and see globalism and mass migration as an existential threat to the UK and the wider west then I would take almost any level of economic pain to achieve this. It's just not about money for me. Even though getting out of the EU is only a first step to resolving the fundamental issues in this country it's an essential one. Would you like to lose your house and be homeless? Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

Maine Eagle

USA 13 Jun 19 10.43pm

Originally posted by W12

The debate for me is whether no deal is any more damaging than not getting *fully* out of the EU in a meaningful way (remain, BRINO, Canada, Norway, blah blah).

If you are like me and see globalism and mass migration as an existential threat to the UK and the wider west then I would take almost any level of economic pain to achieve this. It's just not about money for me.

Even though getting out of the EU is only a first step to resolving the fundamental issues in this country it's an essential one.

Would you like to lose your house and be homeless?

Trump lost. Badly. Hahahahahahaha.

ChrisGC Wantage 13 Jun 19 11.21pm
Nearly 2000 pages ffs. I think the vote is back on page 400 (ish). 1600 pages of pure nonsense really. Nothing has changed in that time! Incredible. Roll on October.

ChrisGC

Wantage 13 Jun 19 11.21pm

Nearly 2000 pages ffs. I think the vote is back on page 400 (ish). 1600 pages of pure nonsense really. Nothing has changed in that time! Incredible.

Roll on October.

Rudi Hedman Caterham 13 Jun 19 11.58pm
Originally posted by SW19 CPFC This is assuming globalisation fails. And that’s a big assumption. Personally I’d say ‘survival’ is more accurate, the way things are going, especially once automation really gets going. Less people power, more state reliance, more state power, more globalisation. Mass immigration was never necessary. The youth were ignored while we imported trained labour. Pretty appalling really, and by a labour govt. Well Tony Blair dressed up as labour but anything for power, which funnily enough Corbyn is doing with his stubborn and vague positioning to get a GE. COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 13 Jun 19 11.58pm

Originally posted by SW19 CPFC

Mass immigration was never necessary. The youth were ignored while we imported trained labour. Pretty appalling really, and by a labour govt. Well Tony Blair dressed up as labour but anything for power, which funnily enough Corbyn is doing with his stubborn and vague positioning to get a GE.

COYP

Rudi Hedman Caterham 14 Jun 19 12.02am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Funny how people see things isn't it? I see globalisation as an inevitable consequence of human and technological evolution and to attempt to stand against it as futile as King Canute commanding the tide. If you face the inevitable then you must do your best to harness it's power to your advantage, and not retreat into a corner moaning about how things used to be better. No-one wants uncontrolled immigration but some immigration, when currently our birthrate is falling and our life expectancy increasing, is essential. If circumstances change then we too must adapt and change. Why have we bl00dy had it then? Some immigration, fine. Not changing the face of the country and ignoring the potential already here. Shameful on the people responsible. COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 14 Jun 19 12.02am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Funny how people see things isn't it?

I see globalisation as an inevitable consequence of human and technological evolution and to attempt to stand against it as futile as King Canute commanding the tide.

If you face the inevitable then you must do your best to harness it's power to your advantage, and not retreat into a corner moaning about how things used to be better.

No-one wants uncontrolled immigration but some immigration, when currently our birthrate is falling and our life expectancy increasing, is essential. If circumstances change then we too must adapt and change.

Why have we bl00dy had it then?

Some immigration, fine. Not changing the face of the country and ignoring the potential already here. Shameful on the people responsible.

COYP

Teddy Eagle 14 Jun 19 12.25am
Originally posted by ChrisGC Nearly 2000 pages ffs. I think the vote is back on page 400 (ish). 1600 pages of pure nonsense really. Nothing has changed in that time! Incredible. Roll on October. The BBS is up to 5457 pages. I haven’t read them.

Teddy Eagle

14 Jun 19 12.25am

Originally posted by ChrisGC

Nearly 2000 pages ffs. I think the vote is back on page 400 (ish). 1600 pages of pure nonsense really. Nothing has changed in that time! Incredible.

Roll on October.

The BBS is up to 5457 pages. I haven’t read them.

SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 14 Jun 19 8.35am
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman Mass immigration was never necessary. The youth were ignored while we imported trained labour. Pretty appalling really, and by a labour govt. Well Tony Blair dressed up as labour but anything for power, which funnily enough Corbyn is doing with his stubborn and vague positioning to get a GE. Maybe so, but we are where we are You can either cry about it, do something about it or profit from it. Another avenue is to work with it to get to a position where you have enough power to start to attempt to enforce change. Or let your life become defined by it, ending in an entirely avoidable vortex of bitterness, resentment, isolation and regret. Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 14 Jun 19 8.35am

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Maybe so, but we are where we are

You can either cry about it, do something about it or profit from it.

Another avenue is to work with it to get to a position where you have enough power to start to attempt to enforce change.

Or let your life become defined by it, ending in an entirely avoidable vortex of bitterness, resentment, isolation and regret.

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

dynamicdick Dormansland 14 Jun 19 12.36pm
With regards to keeping ‘No Deal’ on the table,would you expect a trade union to enter negotiations without the threat of strike action? Bring back Brolin

dynamicdick

Dormansland 14 Jun 19 12.36pm

With regards to keeping ‘No Deal’ on the table,would you expect a trade union to enter negotiations without the threat of strike action?

Bring back Brolin

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