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Mapletree Croydon 29 Aug 19 3.26pm
Originally posted by Lyons550 how does that make it meaningless? How do we know what the 6% represents? Some of it could be the ones you mention above. C'mon je, you're better than that. In that case read again what I wrote on the same topic. Instead of your bland and meaningless objection. Edited by Mapletree (29 Aug 2019 3.39pm)

Mapletree

Croydon 29 Aug 19 3.26pm

Originally posted by Lyons550

how does that make it meaningless? How do we know what the 6% represents? Some of it could be the ones you mention above.

C'mon je, you're better than that.

In that case read again what I wrote on the same topic. Instead of your bland and meaningless objection.

Edited by Mapletree (29 Aug 2019 3.39pm)

Mapletree Croydon 29 Aug 19 3.38pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Once again you miss the point....and just waffle on your own talking points. What you state is no different to how it is in the EU. And please don't make the suggestion that somehow this country accepted the idea of pooling anything like the amounts of sovereignty that Prime Ministers signed away in treaties after 75. Because that simply isn't the case. Every treaty that signed away the highest law making powers to a foreign body should have come with a referendum. Yes, the discussions were quite clear on the pooling of sovereignty as you put it. Both prior to 1973 and again in 1975. You may not have been around then though. I have previously posted historic documentation on this point. You haven't listened to Wisbech have you. We operate representative democracy through the mother of all Parliaments. Referenda have multiple flaws.

Mapletree

Croydon 29 Aug 19 3.38pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Once again you miss the point....and just waffle on your own talking points.

What you state is no different to how it is in the EU.

And please don't make the suggestion that somehow this country accepted the idea of pooling anything like the amounts of sovereignty that Prime Ministers signed away in treaties after 75.

Because that simply isn't the case.

Every treaty that signed away the highest law making powers to a foreign body should have come with a referendum.

Yes, the discussions were quite clear on the pooling of sovereignty as you put it. Both prior to 1973 and again in 1975. You may not have been around then though. I have previously posted historic documentation on this point.

You haven't listened to Wisbech have you. We operate representative democracy through the mother of all Parliaments. Referenda have multiple flaws.

Lyons550 Shirley 29 Aug 19 3.44pm
Originally posted by Mapletree Yes, that is why the US companies are waiting until the Pound hits rock bottom before buying all our 'family silver' businesses. It is being openly discussed. You're quite probably right; but only because Brown already got rid of the 'family gold' The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550

Shirley 29 Aug 19 3.44pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

Yes, that is why the US companies are waiting until the Pound hits rock bottom before buying all our 'family silver' businesses. It is being openly discussed.

You're quite probably right; but only because Brown already got rid of the 'family gold'

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Stirlingsays 29 Aug 19 3.45pm
Originally posted by Mapletree Yes, the discussions were quite clear on the pooling of sovereignty as you put it. Both prior to 1973 and again in 1975. You may not have been around then though. I have previously posted historic documentation on this point. Errr....no. The vote was only and I repeat only for the terms of the common market that we entered into. You claiming for anything else is disingenuous. Originally posted by Mapletree You haven't listened to Wisbech have you. We operate representative democracy through the mother of all Parliaments. Referenda have multiple flaws. Oh so you don't support having another one then.....Good to know. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

29 Aug 19 3.45pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

Errr....no.

The vote was only and I repeat only for the terms of the common market that we entered into.

You claiming for anything else is disingenuous.

Originally posted by Mapletree

You haven't listened to Wisbech have you. We operate representative democracy through the mother of all Parliaments. Referenda have multiple flaws.

Oh so you don't support having another one then.....Good to know.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Lyons550 Shirley 29 Aug 19 3.47pm
Originally posted by Mapletree In that case read again what I wrote on the same topic. Instead of your bland and meaningless objection. Edited by Mapletree (29 Aug 2019 3.39pm) ...you wrote that based on 'logic' but no fact...which means the counter argument is just as valid. I'm sorry if you don't like it...but i appreciate it was just as bland and meaningless as your original 'logic' as neither of us can argue the 'fact' as to what the 6% actually represents. If we're going to use stats to support our points, lets do so with meaningful ones; not generic ones. *apologies as i seem to only be replying to your posts at the minute. Not intentional. Edited by Lyons550 (29 Aug 2019 3.49pm) The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550

Shirley 29 Aug 19 3.47pm

Originally posted by Mapletree

In that case read again what I wrote on the same topic. Instead of your bland and meaningless objection.

Edited by Mapletree (29 Aug 2019 3.39pm)

...you wrote that based on 'logic' but no fact...which means the counter argument is just as valid. I'm sorry if you don't like it...but i appreciate it was just as bland and meaningless as your original 'logic' as neither of us can argue the 'fact' as to what the 6% actually represents.

If we're going to use stats to support our points, lets do so with meaningful ones; not generic ones.

*apologies as i seem to only be replying to your posts at the minute. Not intentional.

Edited by Lyons550 (29 Aug 2019 3.49pm)

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550 Shirley 29 Aug 19 3.57pm
Where's Maine...anyone seen him on here lately? i miss his erudite reposts! The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Lyons550

Shirley 29 Aug 19 3.57pm

Where's Maine...anyone seen him on here lately? i miss his erudite reposts!

The Voice of Reason In An Otherwise Mediocre World

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 29 Aug 19 4.28pm
Originally posted by Rudi Hedman Cue the vote was advisory (yawn). As no referendum has any legal force they are not even advisory. It's was the commitment to respect it and the triggering of Article 50 by Parliament which has the real implications. What Parliament enacts it can also undo. Parliament, and not governments, are sovereign in the UK. If Parliament is of a mind that the path being trodden is not in the country's interests then they have not just the right, but the duty, to act. Parliament cannot, and I am sure will not, allow any government of whatever stripe, to use procedure to get it's own way against the collective will of the Parliament. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 29 Aug 19 4.28pm

Originally posted by Rudi Hedman

Cue the vote was advisory (yawn).

As no referendum has any legal force they are not even advisory. It's was the commitment to respect it and the triggering of Article 50 by Parliament which has the real implications.

What Parliament enacts it can also undo. Parliament, and not governments, are sovereign in the UK. If Parliament is of a mind that the path being trodden is not in the country's interests then they have not just the right, but the duty, to act.

Parliament cannot, and I am sure will not, allow any government of whatever stripe, to use procedure to get it's own way against the collective will of the Parliament.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Matov 29 Aug 19 4.31pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle Parliament cannot, and I am sure will not, allow any government of whatever stripe, to use procedure to get it's own way against the collective will of the Parliament. I look forward to the vote of No Confidence. That is how Parliament shows its displeasure. But still strangely quiet on that front. You would have thought Corbyn would have been shouting it from the roof-tops. Perhaps he is out shopping for a new suit to wear when the Queen grants him an audience? "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

29 Aug 19 4.31pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Parliament cannot, and I am sure will not, allow any government of whatever stripe, to use procedure to get it's own way against the collective will of the Parliament.

I look forward to the vote of No Confidence. That is how Parliament shows its displeasure. But still strangely quiet on that front.

You would have thought Corbyn would have been shouting it from the roof-tops. Perhaps he is out shopping for a new suit to wear when the Queen grants him an audience?

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 29 Aug 19 4.38pm
Originally posted by Matov I look forward to the vote of No Confidence. That is how Parliament shows its displeasure. But still strangely quiet on that front. You would have thought Corbyn would have been shouting it from the roof-tops. Perhaps he is out shopping for a new suit to wear when the Queen grants him an audience? There is a tsunami of water still to go under this bridge which will only be released if Parliament is somehow thwarted in it's ability to act. Individual ambitions will all be buried under the collective will to act. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 29 Aug 19 4.38pm

Originally posted by Matov

I look forward to the vote of No Confidence. That is how Parliament shows its displeasure. But still strangely quiet on that front.

You would have thought Corbyn would have been shouting it from the roof-tops. Perhaps he is out shopping for a new suit to wear when the Queen grants him an audience?

There is a tsunami of water still to go under this bridge which will only be released if Parliament is somehow thwarted in it's ability to act. Individual ambitions will all be buried under the collective will to act.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

steeleye20 Croydon 29 Aug 19 4.46pm
Blowing up the cabinet at the Grand Hotel in 1985 was an outrage. Now it would get a round of applause.

steeleye20

Croydon 29 Aug 19 4.46pm

Blowing up the cabinet at the Grand Hotel in 1985 was an outrage.

Now it would get a round of applause.

Stirlingsays 29 Aug 19 5.38pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 Blowing up the cabinet at the Grand Hotel in 1985 was an outrage. Now it would get a round of applause. Spicy. Then again supporting selective terrorism does kind of fit in with the modern day Labour party. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

29 Aug 19 5.38pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Blowing up the cabinet at the Grand Hotel in 1985 was an outrage.

Now it would get a round of applause.

Spicy.

Then again supporting selective terrorism does kind of fit in with the modern day Labour party.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Midlands Eagle 29 Aug 19 5.50pm
Originally posted by Matov You would have thought Corbyn would have been shouting it from the roof-tops. Perhaps he is out shopping for a new suit to wear when the Queen grants him an audience? The Queen will probably tell Corbyn that she is too busy to see him as she has prior appointments just as he said to her when he was supposed to be anointed as a Privy Councillor

Midlands Eagle

29 Aug 19 5.50pm

Originally posted by Matov

You would have thought Corbyn would have been shouting it from the roof-tops. Perhaps he is out shopping for a new suit to wear when the Queen grants him an audience?

The Queen will probably tell Corbyn that she is too busy to see him as she has prior appointments just as he said to her when he was supposed to be anointed as a Privy Councillor

SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 29 Aug 19 5.50pm
Originally posted by PalazioVecchio so true, and it is coming so soon A little bit fanatical here. Reminds me of 'Judgement day is upon us all' (yet again) 'repent, repent, or burn in the fires of hell'. Whatever. You'll be waiting a long time for the second coming of Jebus. And yes that was a deliberate misspelling. If you think such a vast system with countless vested interests and impenetrable power structures is simply going to implode, no questions asked, you're mad as a hatter. There's certainly another crash coming at some stage, but that doesn't mean the whole of the EU ceasing to exist. See 2008. I bet the same people were offering up the same tripey foretellings. Any and all options, on and off the table, will be used to preserve the status quo. Also, may I add, if the EU did come to an end as you seem convinced it will do almost as soon as next week, then it would need to be through such a severe event that your way of life as you know it now will be completely destroyed. Job lost, no future, begging for scraps. Although maybe that's a good thing. It would certainly be a wonderful case study in having your cake and eating it. Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

SW19 CPFC

Addiscombe West 29 Aug 19 5.50pm

Originally posted by PalazioVecchio

so true, and it is coming so soon

A little bit fanatical here. Reminds me of 'Judgement day is upon us all' (yet again) 'repent, repent, or burn in the fires of hell'.

Whatever. You'll be waiting a long time for the second coming of Jebus. And yes that was a deliberate misspelling.

If you think such a vast system with countless vested interests and impenetrable power structures is simply going to implode, no questions asked, you're mad as a hatter.

There's certainly another crash coming at some stage, but that doesn't mean the whole of the EU ceasing to exist. See 2008. I bet the same people were offering up the same tripey foretellings. Any and all options, on and off the table, will be used to preserve the status quo.

Also, may I add, if the EU did come to an end as you seem convinced it will do almost as soon as next week, then it would need to be through such a severe event that your way of life as you know it now will be completely destroyed. Job lost, no future, begging for scraps. Although maybe that's a good thing. It would certainly be a wonderful case study in having your cake and eating it.

Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons.

Invalid user 2019 29 Aug 19 5.52pm
Originally posted by Matov I look forward to the vote of No Confidence. That is how Parliament shows its displeasure. But still strangely quiet on that front. You would have thought Corbyn would have been shouting it from the roof-tops. Perhaps he is out shopping for a new suit to wear when the Queen grants him an audience? Whatever move is made, the timetable essentially rules out Brexit being derailed. BoJo's covered all of the bases. From what I read - "If MPs pass a no confidence vote next week then we won’t resign. We won’t recommend another government, we’ll dissolve parliament, call an election between November 1-5 and there’ll be zero chance of Grieve legislation,” says senior official. Any election would be in the aftermath of Brexit, and as such logically it would not make any sense to vote for the Brexit Party anymore, so a clear majority would more likely in my view. That's an underestimated aspect of what's going on really. Killing off this ever lingering threat of UKIP, Brexit Party and all related incarnations. Some would call that party over country, but I don't think it's that simple taking everything into account. Besides, the vote was what it was and as such anyone clinging onto ideas that it isn't going to happen is surely deluded at this stage.

Invalid user 2019

29 Aug 19 5.52pm

Originally posted by Matov

I look forward to the vote of No Confidence. That is how Parliament shows its displeasure. But still strangely quiet on that front.

You would have thought Corbyn would have been shouting it from the roof-tops. Perhaps he is out shopping for a new suit to wear when the Queen grants him an audience?

Whatever move is made, the timetable essentially rules out Brexit being derailed. BoJo's covered all of the bases. From what I read -

"If MPs pass a no confidence vote next week then we won’t resign. We won’t recommend another government, we’ll dissolve parliament, call an election between November 1-5 and there’ll be zero chance of Grieve legislation,” says senior official.

Any election would be in the aftermath of Brexit, and as such logically it would not make any sense to vote for the Brexit Party anymore, so a clear majority would more likely in my view. That's an underestimated aspect of what's going on really. Killing off this ever lingering threat of UKIP, Brexit Party and all related incarnations. Some would call that party over country, but I don't think it's that simple taking everything into account. Besides, the vote was what it was and as such anyone clinging onto ideas that it isn't going to happen is surely deluded at this stage.

Stirlingsays 29 Aug 19 5.52pm
Originally posted by Lyons550 Where's Maine...anyone seen him on here lately? i miss his erudite reposts! He's up to his neck in Tinder skirt apparently. We have to wait until he's taken it out and zipped up before we can get his political take on it all. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

29 Aug 19 5.52pm

Originally posted by Lyons550

Where's Maine...anyone seen him on here lately? i miss his erudite reposts!

He's up to his neck in Tinder skirt apparently.

We have to wait until he's taken it out and zipped up before we can get his political take on it all.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Midlands Eagle 29 Aug 19 5.53pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle There is a tsunami of water still to go under this bridge which will only be released if Parliament is somehow thwarted in it's ability to act. Individual ambitions will all be buried under the collective will to act. I love your post as I can imagine your face going redder and redder with righteous indignation at the fact that the Prime Minister has got one over on all those in Parliament that thought they could thwart the will of the people that put them there. Take it easy before you explode

Midlands Eagle

29 Aug 19 5.53pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I love your post as I can imagine your face going redder and redder with righteous indignation at the fact that the Prime Minister has got one over on all those in Parliament that thought they could thwart the will of the people that put them there.

Take it easy before you explode

Badger11 Beckenham 29 Aug 19 6.01pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle As no referendum has any legal force they are not even advisory. It's was the commitment to respect it and the triggering of Article 50 by Parliament which has the real implications. What Parliament enacts it can also undo. Parliament, and not governments, are sovereign in the UK. If Parliament is of a mind that the path being trodden is not in the country's interests then they have not just the right, but the duty, to act. Parliament cannot, and I am sure will not, allow any government of whatever stripe, to use procedure to get it's own way against the collective will of the Parliament. So if the opposition fail to vote down the government or any other equivalent vote you would be okay with that right? Because that is the will of Parliament? One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 29 Aug 19 6.01pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

As no referendum has any legal force they are not even advisory. It's was the commitment to respect it and the triggering of Article 50 by Parliament which has the real implications.

Parliament cannot, and I am sure will not, allow any government of whatever stripe, to use procedure to get it's own way against the collective will of the Parliament.

So if the opposition fail to vote down the government or any other equivalent vote you would be okay with that right? Because that is the will of Parliament?

One more point

chris123 hove actually 29 Aug 19 6.07pm
Originally posted by steeleye20 Blowing up the cabinet at the Grand Hotel in 1985 was an outrage. Now it would get a round of applause. No more IRA bombing thanks, the Caterham one still haunts me.

chris123

hove actually 29 Aug 19 6.07pm

Originally posted by steeleye20

Blowing up the cabinet at the Grand Hotel in 1985 was an outrage.

Now it would get a round of applause.

No more IRA bombing thanks, the Caterham one still haunts me.

Stirlingsays 29 Aug 19 6.10pm
Originally posted by Midlands Eagle I love your post as I can imagine your face going redder and redder with righteous indignation at the fact that the Prime Minister has got one over on all those in Parliament that thought they could thwart the will of the people that put them there. Take it easy before you explode Dominic Cummings and his team played a large role in winning the original Brexit vote and now he's outsmarted and 'dirty tricked' them on actually leaving. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

29 Aug 19 6.10pm

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

Take it easy before you explode

Dominic Cummings and his team played a large role in winning the original Brexit vote and now he's outsmarted and 'dirty tricked' them on actually leaving.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Matov 29 Aug 19 8.45pm
Originally posted by Stirlingsays Dominic Cummings and his team played a large role in winning the original Brexit vote and now he's outsmarted and 'dirty tricked' them on actually leaving. A way to go yet and still I suspect a few more twists before we get one less star on that s***ty flag. I confess the schadenfreude of the last day or so has been delicious but I still have my doubts about Johnson and his true commitment to enacting a 'clean' Brexit along with a little bit of a notion of hypocrisy. If the Remain side had pulled a similar stunt to enact a revocation of A50 or a second referendum I would be all blood and thunder myself and ultimately, the UK has to emerge from the other side of this all at some stage. And the divisions are now so entrenched that I do wonder what the future holds. Scary times, no matter how fun the last 36 hours have been. Because what is clear is that a significant amount of people in the UK cannot accept that 52 is a higher % than 48 in a vote. I had just accepted as a given that our system of democracy was rock solid but it is clear that for a lot of people, that is no longer a valid concept. And supposedly the 'brighter' ones in our society as well. When did they become such utter morons? Why would anybody who voted Remain in 2016 not accept that they lost? Once we leave, then yes, campaign for us to rejoin. A perfectly legitimate political aspiration. But to try and deliberately scupper the result from June 2016 from being implemented? That is beyond the pale. Democracy clearly is a lot more fragile than I had assumed. Edited by Matov (29 Aug 2019 8.49pm) "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

29 Aug 19 8.45pm

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Dominic Cummings and his team played a large role in winning the original Brexit vote and now he's outsmarted and 'dirty tricked' them on actually leaving.

A way to go yet and still I suspect a few more twists before we get one less star on that s***ty flag.

I confess the schadenfreude of the last day or so has been delicious but I still have my doubts about Johnson and his true commitment to enacting a 'clean' Brexit along with a little bit of a notion of hypocrisy.

If the Remain side had pulled a similar stunt to enact a revocation of A50 or a second referendum I would be all blood and thunder myself and ultimately, the UK has to emerge from the other side of this all at some stage.

And the divisions are now so entrenched that I do wonder what the future holds. Scary times, no matter how fun the last 36 hours have been.

Because what is clear is that a significant amount of people in the UK cannot accept that 52 is a higher % than 48 in a vote. I had just accepted as a given that our system of democracy was rock solid but it is clear that for a lot of people, that is no longer a valid concept. And supposedly the 'brighter' ones in our society as well.

When did they become such utter morons? Why would anybody who voted Remain in 2016 not accept that they lost? Once we leave, then yes, campaign for us to rejoin. A perfectly legitimate political aspiration. But to try and deliberately scupper the result from June 2016 from being implemented? That is beyond the pale. Democracy clearly is a lot more fragile than I had assumed.

Edited by Matov (29 Aug 2019 8.49pm)

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

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