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Matov 02 Oct 19 9.14pm
Originally posted by Teddy Eagle That would be fine if either side had ever supported the other over anything. Johnson or Corbyn could come up with a foolproof plan to end poverty, cure disease and bring world peace and the other would oppose it. To be fair, right at the start of the process when David Davis was the Brexit secretary he did start out from a position of wanting to make the effort to include all the main political parties. It was May who scuppered that so perhaps it might remain one of the 'what ifs' when this entire sorry affair is done and dusted. Had some time to process Johnsons 'deal'. If he has the DUP onboard then it stands a chance of passing, if the EU are willing to swallow it. Personally I want no-deal so am keeping my fingers crossed but from what I have been reading, it seems that many Remain types appear a tad worried it might actually work. Lets see. Lot of noise from the usual suspects about how it is unacceptable BUT that is to be expected. Interesting to see how it pans out over the next 48 hours. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

02 Oct 19 9.14pm

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

That would be fine if either side had ever supported the other over anything. Johnson or Corbyn could come up with a foolproof plan to end poverty, cure disease and bring world peace and the other would oppose it.

To be fair, right at the start of the process when David Davis was the Brexit secretary he did start out from a position of wanting to make the effort to include all the main political parties. It was May who scuppered that so perhaps it might remain one of the 'what ifs' when this entire sorry affair is done and dusted.

Had some time to process Johnsons 'deal'. If he has the DUP onboard then it stands a chance of passing, if the EU are willing to swallow it.

Personally I want no-deal so am keeping my fingers crossed but from what I have been reading, it seems that many Remain types appear a tad worried it might actually work. Lets see.

Lot of noise from the usual suspects about how it is unacceptable BUT that is to be expected. Interesting to see how it pans out over the next 48 hours.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

dannyboy1978 02 Oct 19 9.26pm
Once in a generation is she taking the piss? BBC News - Theresa May says Domestic Abuse Bill 'once-in-a-generation opportunity' [Link] That choice of words is unbelievable with what's going on with brexit

dannyboy1978

02 Oct 19 9.26pm

Once in a generation is she taking the piss?
BBC News - Theresa May says Domestic Abuse Bill 'once-in-a-generation opportunity'
[Link]
That choice of words is unbelievable with what's going on with brexit

Hrolf The Ganger 02 Oct 19 9.28pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle As I haven't heard anyone argue that Brexit is impossible to deliver I think everyone agrees with you on that! It isn't though the point, is it? It's how the exit is managed that concerns people. There might be some who are motivated by self interest (Mr Johnson and Mr Corbyn being two examples) but most have quite genuine worries that in leaving without a formal agreement in place will cause harm, some of which might not just be financial but psychical. If you truly believe that then you have to act on that belief. Dismissing it by saying that it will be OK in due time is no answer. If harm can be avoided then it must be, whatever the delay and whatever the anger caused to those who feel cheated. Please try to understand why Parliament, and indeed the EU, have these reservations and stop attributing evil intent to them. There is much more involved than just politics. You said Cameron's promise was undeliverable and now you say the reverse. The EU have reservations because they want to protect their interests as do the Irish and Scots. Parliament should not have voted for a referendum if it was then going to fret about the process and the consequences of leaving. Many obviously bet on a Remain win and lost. The current members of Parliament must accept the decision in 2016 and see it through whether they like it or not. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (02 Oct 2019 9.29pm)

Hrolf The Ganger

02 Oct 19 9.28pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

As I haven't heard anyone argue that Brexit is impossible to deliver I think everyone agrees with you on that!

It isn't though the point, is it?

It's how the exit is managed that concerns people. There might be some who are motivated by self interest (Mr Johnson and Mr Corbyn being two examples) but most have quite genuine worries that in leaving without a formal agreement in place will cause harm, some of which might not just be financial but psychical. If you truly believe that then you have to act on that belief. Dismissing it by saying that it will be OK in due time is no answer.

If harm can be avoided then it must be, whatever the delay and whatever the anger caused to those who feel cheated. Please try to understand why Parliament, and indeed the EU, have these reservations and stop attributing evil intent to them. There is much more involved than just politics.

You said Cameron's promise was undeliverable and now you say the reverse.
The EU have reservations because they want to protect their interests as do the Irish and Scots.

Parliament should not have voted for a referendum if it was then going to fret about the process and the consequences of leaving. Many obviously bet on a Remain win and lost.

The current members of Parliament must accept the decision in 2016 and see it through whether they like it or not.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (02 Oct 2019 9.29pm)

Rudi Hedman Caterham 02 Oct 19 9.30pm
If I could draw I’d draw a cartoon of Boris pulling a spanner out of the works and handing it back to the EU saying, ‘I believe you put and left this in there. Back to you.’ All those opposed will find something else, you can count on it, and they’re trying to claim Boris is trying to make the EU the ones to blame. The cheek of these cvnts. The cheek of us. Trying to do what we’d like in the future. Fvck them. We’ll visit each other’s countries and get on but I and others around Europe don’t see why we should be forced into having live their ideal. COYP

Rudi Hedman

Caterham 02 Oct 19 9.30pm

If I could draw I’d draw a cartoon of Boris pulling a spanner out of the works and handing it back to the EU saying, ‘I believe you put and left this in there. Back to you.’

All those opposed will find something else, you can count on it, and they’re trying to claim Boris is trying to make the EU the ones to blame. The cheek of these cvnts. The cheek of us. Trying to do what we’d like in the future. Fvck them. We’ll visit each other’s countries and get on but I and others around Europe don’t see why we should be forced into having live their ideal.

COYP

W12 02 Oct 19 10.02pm
The idea that Boris wants a no deal is total bollocks. I hope he does but I just don’t trust him or his party.

W12 02 Oct 19 10.02pm

The idea that Boris wants a no deal is total bollocks.

I hope he does but I just don’t trust him or his party.

Matov 02 Oct 19 10.38pm
Originally posted by W12 The idea that Boris wants a no deal is total bollocks. I hope he does but I just don’t trust him or his party. Agree. Willing, just, to give him the benefit of the doubt but he needs to deliver. "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Matov

02 Oct 19 10.38pm

Originally posted by W12

The idea that Boris wants a no deal is total bollocks.

I hope he does but I just don’t trust him or his party.

Agree. Willing, just, to give him the benefit of the doubt but he needs to deliver.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 02 Oct 19 10.45pm
Originally posted by Matov To be fair, right at the start of the process when David Davis was the Brexit secretary he did start out from a position of wanting to make the effort to include all the main political parties. It was May who scuppered that so perhaps it might remain one of the 'what ifs' when this entire sorry affair is done and dusted. Had some time to process Johnsons 'deal'. If he has the DUP onboard then it stands a chance of passing, if the EU are willing to swallow it. Personally I want no-deal so am keeping my fingers crossed but from what I have been reading, it seems that many Remain types appear a tad worried it might actually work. Lets see. Lot of noise from the usual suspects about how it is unacceptable BUT that is to be expected. Interesting to see how it pans out over the next 48 hours. I haven't heard any "types" appearing worried it might work! Most seem confused by it's complexity, are still struggling to get their head around it and listening to the professional reactions for guidance. I want it to work and be acceptable to all the interested parties but whose genuine objections also need to be respected. Let's now see what the EU say. If they can accept it then I sincerely hope that no-one in Parliament starts to play politics with it and would vote it through. I remain sceptical. I don't trust Johnson an inch to not actually be playing political games himself, but I am quite prepared to see this work. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 02 Oct 19 10.45pm

Originally posted by Matov

Had some time to process Johnsons 'deal'. If he has the DUP onboard then it stands a chance of passing, if the EU are willing to swallow it.

Personally I want no-deal so am keeping my fingers crossed but from what I have been reading, it seems that many Remain types appear a tad worried it might actually work. Lets see.

Lot of noise from the usual suspects about how it is unacceptable BUT that is to be expected. Interesting to see how it pans out over the next 48 hours.

I haven't heard any "types" appearing worried it might work! Most seem confused by it's complexity, are still struggling to get their head around it and listening to the professional reactions for guidance.

I want it to work and be acceptable to all the interested parties but whose genuine objections also need to be respected. Let's now see what the EU say. If they can accept it then I sincerely hope that no-one in Parliament starts to play politics with it and would vote it through.

I remain sceptical. I don't trust Johnson an inch to not actually be playing political games himself, but I am quite prepared to see this work.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

dannyboy1978 02 Oct 19 10.51pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle I haven't heard any "types" appearing worried it might work! Most seem confused by it's complexity, are still struggling to get their head around it and listening to the professional reactions for guidance. I want it to work and be acceptable to all the interested parties but whose genuine objections also need to be respected. Let's now see what the EU say. If they can accept it then I sincerely hope that no-one in Parliament starts to play politics with it and would vote it through. I remain sceptical. I don't trust Johnson an inch to not actually be playing political games himself, but I am quite prepared to see this work. Why not?

dannyboy1978

02 Oct 19 10.51pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I remain sceptical. I don't trust Johnson an inch to not actually be playing political games himself, but I am quite prepared to see this work.

Why not?

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 02 Oct 19 11.05pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger You said Cameron's promise was undeliverable and now you say the reverse. The EU have reservations because they want to protect their interests as do the Irish and Scots. Parliament should not have voted for a referendum if it was then going to fret about the process and the consequences of leaving. Many obviously bet on a Remain win and lost. The current members of Parliament must accept the decision in 2016 and see it through whether they like it or not. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (02 Oct 2019 9.29pm) What I commented on was the idea that guarantees can ever be given by a PM when they need to work through Parliament. Of course a promise CAN be delivered but it cannot be guaranteed. I agree that Parliament should not have agreed to hold a referendum and trust that lesson has been learned for ever. The then government didn't expect to lose and did not anticipate all the difficulties that have followed with hindsight. The current members of Parliament must do what their consciences tell them is now in our best interests. Not what they thought they were in 2016. Do you seriously expect anyone, in any situation, not to adjust their position if their knowledge tells them it is needed? Would you continue to play Benteke just because he scored goals in 2016? Edited by Wisbech Eagle (02 Oct 2019 11.21pm) For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 02 Oct 19 11.05pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

You said Cameron's promise was undeliverable and now you say the reverse.
The EU have reservations because they want to protect their interests as do the Irish and Scots.

Parliament should not have voted for a referendum if it was then going to fret about the process and the consequences of leaving. Many obviously bet on a Remain win and lost.

The current members of Parliament must accept the decision in 2016 and see it through whether they like it or not.

Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (02 Oct 2019 9.29pm)

What I commented on was the idea that guarantees can ever be given by a PM when they need to work through Parliament. Of course a promise CAN be delivered but it cannot be guaranteed.

I agree that Parliament should not have agreed to hold a referendum and trust that lesson has been learned for ever. The then government didn't expect to lose and did not anticipate all the difficulties that have followed with hindsight.

The current members of Parliament must do what their consciences tell them is now in our best interests. Not what they thought they were in 2016.

Do you seriously expect anyone, in any situation, not to adjust their position if their knowledge tells them it is needed?

Would you continue to play Benteke just because he scored goals in 2016?

Edited by Wisbech Eagle (02 Oct 2019 11.21pm)

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Teddy Eagle 02 Oct 19 11.17pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle What I commented on was the idea that guarantees can every be given by a PM when they need to work through Parliament. Of course a promise CAN be delivered but it cannot be guaranteed. I agree that Parliament should not have agreed to hold a referendum and trust that lesson has been learned for ever. The then government didn't expect to lose and did not anticipate all the difficulties that have followed with hindsight. The current members of Parliament must do what their consciences tell them is now in our best interests. Not what they thought they were in 2016. Do you seriously expect anyone, in any situation, not to adjust their position if their knowledge tells them it is needed? Would you continue to play Benteke just because he scored goals in 2016? As Benteke has appeared in 6 of 7 league games so far the answer would appear to be yes.

Teddy Eagle

02 Oct 19 11.17pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

What I commented on was the idea that guarantees can every be given by a PM when they need to work through Parliament. Of course a promise CAN be delivered but it cannot be guaranteed.

The current members of Parliament must do what their consciences tell them is now in our best interests. Not what they thought they were in 2016.

Do you seriously expect anyone, in any situation, not to adjust their position if their knowledge tells them it is needed?

Would you continue to play Benteke just because he scored goals in 2016?

As Benteke has appeared in 6 of 7 league games so far the answer would appear to be yes.

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 02 Oct 19 11.19pm
Originally posted by dannyboy1978 Why not? If you really need to ask that then you aren't going to believe me. Unlawful prorogation. Sidelining Parliament. Playing politics with our future. Allowing personal ambition to replace the national interest. Trumpian tactics. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 02 Oct 19 11.19pm

Originally posted by dannyboy1978

Why not?

If you really need to ask that then you aren't going to believe me.

Unlawful prorogation. Sidelining Parliament. Playing politics with our future. Allowing personal ambition to replace the national interest. Trumpian tactics.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

dannyboy1978 02 Oct 19 11.24pm
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle If you really need to ask that then you aren't going to believe me. Unlawful prorogation. Sidelining Parliament. Playing politics with our future. Allowing personal ambition to replace the national interest. Trumpian tactics. What is his personal ambition?

dannyboy1978

02 Oct 19 11.24pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

If you really need to ask that then you aren't going to believe me.

Unlawful prorogation. Sidelining Parliament. Playing politics with our future. Allowing personal ambition to replace the national interest. Trumpian tactics.

What is his personal ambition?

Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 02 Oct 19 11.41pm
Originally posted by dannyboy1978 What is his personal ambition? It seems he wanted to become PM at pretty much any cost. He only signed up to the "leave" idea because he thought it would advance his own career. He is not a conviction politician. He is an opportunist. For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Wisbech Eagle

Truro Cornwall 02 Oct 19 11.41pm

Originally posted by dannyboy1978

What is his personal ambition?

It seems he wanted to become PM at pretty much any cost.

He only signed up to the "leave" idea because he thought it would advance his own career. He is not a conviction politician. He is an opportunist.

For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally.

Teddy Eagle 03 Oct 19 12.17am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle It seems he wanted to become PM at pretty much any cost. He only signed up to the "leave" idea because he thought it would advance his own career. He is not a conviction politician. He is an opportunist. That doesn’t seem an unreasonable ambition for a politician. Have conviction politicians got the country’s best interests at heart or are they more concerned with their own agendas?

Teddy Eagle

03 Oct 19 12.17am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

It seems he wanted to become PM at pretty much any cost.

He only signed up to the "leave" idea because he thought it would advance his own career. He is not a conviction politician. He is an opportunist.

That doesn’t seem an unreasonable ambition for a politician. Have conviction politicians got the country’s best interests at heart or are they more concerned with their own agendas?

HKOwen Hong Kong 03 Oct 19 6.20am
Remoaners have been out thought and out flanked. Let's get on with important things like shouting about Swinson's family income from EU Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.

HKOwen

Hong Kong 03 Oct 19 6.20am

Remoaners have been out thought and out flanked.

Let's get on with important things like shouting about Swinson's family income from EU

Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance.

Midlands Eagle 03 Oct 19 6.28am
Originally posted by Teddy Eagle That doesn’t seem an unreasonable ambition for a politician. Have conviction politicians got the country’s best interests at heart or are they more concerned with their own agendas? Don't waste your time arguing with him as most of us have given up and just ignore his ramblings

Midlands Eagle

03 Oct 19 6.28am

Originally posted by Teddy Eagle

That doesn’t seem an unreasonable ambition for a politician. Have conviction politicians got the country’s best interests at heart or are they more concerned with their own agendas?

Don't waste your time arguing with him as most of us have given up and just ignore his ramblings

dannyboy1978 03 Oct 19 7.05am
Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle It seems he wanted to become PM at pretty much any cost. He only signed up to the "leave" idea because he thought it would advance his own career. He is not a conviction politician. He is an opportunist. What cost?

dannyboy1978

03 Oct 19 7.05am

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

It seems he wanted to become PM at pretty much any cost.

He only signed up to the "leave" idea because he thought it would advance his own career. He is not a conviction politician. He is an opportunist.

What cost?

Badger11 Beckenham 03 Oct 19 7.50am
So Boris has revealed his plan, to be honest I do not know if it is any good or if the EU will accept it. Over the next few days please bear this in mind: The EU have been allowed to get away with the tactic that it is up to the UK government to find a solution. Time and time again the EU leaders just say not good enough or we need more detail etc. Now they can say the backstop is their solution but that has been rejected by Parliament what is their alternative solution to an idea that has been rejected? If the EU rejects Boris's plan and fails to suggest an alternative to the backstop then I hope the public realise that they have to take their share of the blame. I would not have allowed the EU to adopt a position of teacher marking our homework and just saying not good enough go away and try again. This is a negotiation and if the EU wants a deal they also have to have some ideas beyond its the backstop or nothing. If they don't come up with an alternatives then I think that they are not serious about a deal and probably never were. Whatever Boris and May's faults are they are the ones who are proactively seeking a deal the EU is just sitting on its hands hoping that Brexit collapses or Parliament changes its mind about the backstop. One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 03 Oct 19 7.50am

So Boris has revealed his plan, to be honest I do not know if it is any good or if the EU will accept it.

Over the next few days please bear this in mind:

The EU have been allowed to get away with the tactic that it is up to the UK government to find a solution.

Time and time again the EU leaders just say not good enough or we need more detail etc.

Now they can say the backstop is their solution but that has been rejected by Parliament what is their alternative solution to an idea that has been rejected?

If the EU rejects Boris's plan and fails to suggest an alternative to the backstop then I hope the public realise that they have to take their share of the blame.

I would not have allowed the EU to adopt a position of teacher marking our homework and just saying not good enough go away and try again. This is a negotiation and if the EU wants a deal they also have to have some ideas beyond its the backstop or nothing.

If they don't come up with an alternatives then I think that they are not serious about a deal and probably never were. Whatever Boris and May's faults are they are the ones who are proactively seeking a deal the EU is just sitting on its hands hoping that Brexit collapses or Parliament changes its mind about the backstop.

One more point

chris123 hove actually 03 Oct 19 7.56am
Originally posted by Badger11 So Boris has revealed his plan, to be honest I do not know if it is any good or if the EU will accept it. Over the next few days please bear this in mind: The EU have been allowed to get away with the tactic that it is up to the UK government to find a solution. Time and time again the EU leaders just say not good enough or we need more detail etc. Now they can say the backstop is their solution but that has been rejected by Parliament what is their alternative solution to an idea that has been rejected? If the EU rejects Boris's plan and fails to suggest an alternative to the backstop then I hope the public realise that they have to take their share of the blame. I would not have allowed the EU to adopt a position of teacher marking our homework and just saying not good enough go away and try again. This is a negotiation and if the EU wants a deal they also have to have some ideas beyond its the backstop or nothing. If they don't come up with an alternatives then I think that they are not serious about a deal and probably never were. Whatever Boris and May's faults are they are the ones who are proactively seeking a deal the EU is just sitting on its hands hoping that Brexit collapses or Parliament changes its mind about the backstop. Well the EU agreed a deal and Parliament didn't vote for it.

chris123

hove actually 03 Oct 19 7.56am

Originally posted by Badger11

So Boris has revealed his plan, to be honest I do not know if it is any good or if the EU will accept it.

Over the next few days please bear this in mind:

The EU have been allowed to get away with the tactic that it is up to the UK government to find a solution.

Time and time again the EU leaders just say not good enough or we need more detail etc.

Now they can say the backstop is their solution but that has been rejected by Parliament what is their alternative solution to an idea that has been rejected?

If the EU rejects Boris's plan and fails to suggest an alternative to the backstop then I hope the public realise that they have to take their share of the blame.

Well the EU agreed a deal and Parliament didn't vote for it.

Badger11 Beckenham 03 Oct 19 8.01am
Originally posted by chris123 Well the EU agreed a deal and Parliament didn't vote for it. Exactly so what has the EU done since to modify its stance? From an official EU document "The onus to propose solutions which overcome the challenges created on the island of Ireland by the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the European Union and its decision to leave the customs union and the internal market remains on the United Kingdom." The EU has been allowed top get away with it because May didn't put her foot down she allowed them to dictate the terms of the negotiation with the EU being the passive partner. One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 03 Oct 19 8.01am

Originally posted by chris123

Well the EU agreed a deal and Parliament didn't vote for it.

Exactly so what has the EU done since to modify its stance?

From an official EU document

"The onus to propose solutions which overcome the challenges created on the island of Ireland by the United Kingdom's withdrawal from the European Union and its decision to leave the customs union and the internal market remains on the United Kingdom."

The EU has been allowed top get away with it because May didn't put her foot down she allowed them to dictate the terms of the negotiation with the EU being the passive partner.

One more point

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