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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 26 Jan 19 3.32pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by ChrisGC

Well, whoever wrote that garbage about its the MP's job to do what they think is best, rather than those who elect them, needs a lesson in what the role of an MP actually is.

It's entirely to represent and voice the views and will of their constituents, simple as that.

The very obvious clue is in their job description:

Public servant.

Edited by ChrisGC (26 Jan 2019 3.01pm)

This is simply wrong and is the fundamental error that I suspected exists in some minds posting here, which is also held, in error, by many members of the Labour Party.

MPs are NOT delegates. They are representatives. They are therefore not in Parliament to "represent and voice the views and will of their constituents". They are there to use their time to fully study the issues and come to decisions on our behalf. They would be foolish to ignore the views of the electorate if they hope to be re-elected but they are not duty bound to always follow their will. Their duty is to do what THEY believe is in the best interests of their constituents.

MPs are not public servants in the way civil servants are. Don't believe me? Let me quote Charles Walker, a Conservative MP, in an interview in 2014 in the New Statesman:- “Your readers are going to hate this, but when I hear people say we’re public servants, well we’re not. We’re not there to serve the public. We’re representatives of our communities, who place their faith in us to go to Parliament and exercise our judgement on their behalf on the big issues of the day.”

 


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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 26 Jan 19 3.37pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

To represent.....not dictate as an 'expert' as you seem to think.....'experts' are frequently wrong themselves....we had the Euro and the exchange rate mechanism.... A democracy is not rule by 'expert'.

Your arguments are simply a pick and choose of which parts of the democratic process you like.

The PM of the time said the referendum would be observed and frankly Eagle that's that.

How clear can things be.

The parliament voted for the referendum.

The parliament voted to leave the EU.

No one is being forced. It's you who appear to constantly suggest that the parliament don't carry out their own will.....based upon your judgement and those who agree with you.

A recent ICM poll had 'no deal' as the most popular option.....and given how the EU have behaved that's to be expected.

Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Jan 2019 3.01pm)

Of course experts can be wrong, which is why many opinions are considered. You too can be wrong!!!!

That Parliament voted for the referendum and voted to leave is totally beside the point.

Parliament can change it's mind! That is it's right and, if they believe it's necessary it's duty too.

 


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ChrisGC Flag Wantage 26 Jan 19 3.43pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

This is simply wrong and is the fundamental error that I suspected exists in some minds posting here, which is also held, in error, by many members of the Labour Party.

MPs are NOT delegates. They are representatives. They are therefore not in Parliament to "represent and voice the views and will of their constituents". They are there to use their time to fully study the issues and come to decisions on our behalf. They would be foolish to ignore the views of the electorate if they hope to be re-elected but they are not duty bound to always follow their will. Their duty is to do what THEY believe is in the best interests of their constituents.

MPs are not public servants in the way civil servants are. Don't believe me? Let me quote Charles Walker, a Conservative MP, in an interview in 2014 in the New Statesman:- “Your readers are going to hate this, but when I hear people say we’re public servants, well we’re not. We’re not there to serve the public. We’re representatives of our communities, who place their faith in us to go to Parliament and exercise our judgement on their behalf on the big issues of the day.”

I don't understand how you can state the former in bold and not conclude the latter.

You are completely wrong, and it concerns me deeply that you would take the conceited, self serving, inaccurate arrogance of a Tory MP as your benchmark of truth.

A member of parliament might be arrogant enough to think that it is their role to decide what's best for the rest of us, justifying themselves as bastions of the greater good to act undemocratically, but they are elected in the very first instance to represent the views of their members in parliament. Hence, member of parliament for [insert constituency].

Why do you think it's acceptable to ignore the will of their constituents? This is how dictatorship works in actual fact.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 26 Jan 19 4.18pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

Of course experts can be wrong, which is why many opinions are considered. You too can be wrong!!!!

That Parliament voted for the referendum and voted to leave is totally beside the point.

Parliament can change it's mind! That is it's right and, if they believe it's necessary it's duty too.

It isn't about being right or wrong.....because that's a subjective opinion.....it's about representing the will of the people.

That's the point of a democracy.....once that stops what you have are various grades of tyranny.

The reality of parliament is that it's designed to be a balancing act.....the MPs are 'meant' to represent their voters..(though we know lots of them are also career whores to their parties)..if they don't represent their voters they are subject to them and their selection committee......and the review on their collective legal decisions is undertaken by the so called 'experts' in the house of lords......It isn't and never was designed to be....rule by 'expert'.

If Parliament goes back on itself and the promises given to the people then I fully agree with those people within the population who will have lost faith in the democratic process.

Brexit must happen.....If after a period of years a majority has seemingly formed against it.....another referendum can be held......That would be an acceptable and fair democratic process.

But given what was said to the population before the referendum I simply don't agree with the implication that it would be, in any sense, ok to abandon Brexit before it takes place.


Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Jan 2019 4.25pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 26 Jan 19 4.34pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by ChrisGC

I don't understand how you can state the former in bold and not conclude the latter.

You are completely wrong, and it concerns me deeply that you would take the conceited, self serving, inaccurate arrogance of a Tory MP as your benchmark of truth.

A member of parliament might be arrogant enough to think that it is their role to decide what's best for the rest of us, justifying themselves as bastions of the greater good to act undemocratically, but they are elected in the very first instance to represent the views of their members in parliament. Hence, member of parliament for [insert constituency].

Why do you think it's acceptable to ignore the will of their constituents? This is how dictatorship works in actual fact.

I regret that it is you who are completely wrong. Do you understand the difference between a delegate and a representative? MPs are representatives. They are NOT elected to "represent the views of their members in parliament". That would mean they are delegates. Many organisations work like that, but the British Parliament is not one of them.

The MP is not being arrogant at all. He is stating fact. MPs are put there by us to use their best endeavours to represent what they perceive to be our interests. We don't send mouthpieces to Parliament. We send representatives to use their brains. If we don't like what they do then we can choose someone else whenever there is a GE.

If it is any comfort to you ,you are far from alone in this misunderstanding. Many people think as you do, including some of our MPs, but they are constitutionally wrong.

 


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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 26 Jan 19 4.46pm Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

It isn't about being right or wrong.....because that's a subjective opinion.....it's about representing the will of the people.

That's the point of a democracy.....once that stops what you have are various grades of tyranny.

The reality of parliament is that it's designed to be a balancing act.....the MPs are 'meant' to represent their voters..(though we know lots of them are also career whores to their parties)..if they don't represent their voters they are subject to them and their selection committee......and the review on their collective legal decisions is undertaken by the so called 'experts' in the house of lords......It isn't and never was designed to be....rule by 'expert'.

If Parliament goes back on itself and the promises given to the people then I fully agree with those people within the population who will have lost faith in the democratic process.

Brexit must happen.....If after a period of years a majority has seemingly formed against it.....another referendum can be held......That would be an acceptable and fair democratic process.

But given what was said to the population before the referendum I simply don't agree with the implication that it would be, in any sense, ok to abandon Brexit before it takes place.


Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Jan 2019 4.25pm)

I never said it was "rule by expert". What I said was that our MPs, being our professional representatives have the opportunity and time to consult experts and come to informed decisions. Those decisions will balance all the competing considerations.

Representing the voters does not imply always doing what the current mood, or media fuss, dictates. It does not mean doing what is popular. It means doing what they, in their collective wisdom, believe is right.

Not meeting the promises given would be a big deal but if Parliament genuinely believes that to keep them would not be in the country's interests then they have a duty to act.

That people like you would be unhappy is unfortunate but must not be a barrier to Parliament doing it's duty.

Many times in my life I have had to take decisions which were unpopular with others but because I held the responsibility I took, because it was my duty to do so. That's the burden of responsibility. Now we will see just how good our MPs are.

 


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ChrisGC Flag Wantage 26 Jan 19 4.46pm

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I regret that it is you who are completely wrong. Do you understand the difference between a delegate and a representative? MPs are representatives. They are NOT elected to "represent the views of their members in parliament". That would mean they are delegates. Many organisations work like that, but the British Parliament is not one of them.

The MP is not being arrogant at all. He is stating fact. MPs are put there by us to use their best endeavours to represent what they perceive to be our interests. We don't send mouthpieces to Parliament. We send representatives to use their brains. If we don't like what they do then we can choose someone else whenever there is a GE.

If it is any comfort to you ,you are far from alone in this misunderstanding. Many people think as you do, including some of our MPs, but they are constitutionally wrong.

Reference your definition, here's mine:

[Link]

I believe you said something about admitting when you're wrong just before you incorrectly challenged someone else's post....

Edited by ChrisGC (26 Jan 2019 4.50pm)

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 26 Jan 19 5.02pm Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I never said it was "rule by expert". What I said was that our MPs, being our professional representatives have the opportunity and time to consult experts and come to informed decisions. Those decisions will balance all the competing considerations.

Representing the voters does not imply always doing what the current mood, or media fuss, dictates. It does not mean doing what is popular. It means doing what they, in their collective wisdom, believe is right.

Not meeting the promises given would be a big deal but if Parliament genuinely believes that to keep them would not be in the country's interests then they have a duty to act.

That people like you would be unhappy is unfortunate but must not be a barrier to Parliament doing it's duty.

Many times in my life I have had to take decisions which were unpopular with others but because I held the responsibility I took, because it was my duty to do so. That's the burden of responsibility. Now we will see just how good our MPs are.

I'm not sure what more there is to add. I will say that essentially what you state could easily be used as an argument for dictatorship.

What's the point of votes if they can be ignored?.....What you say about parliamentary freedom is valid...but it's up to a point......Especially so...and it's very pertinent in this case....Especially so when the country was told specifically that their wishes would be carried out.

The parliament recognised this when they voted...first to have the referendum and then to carry out Brexit.


Edited by Stirlingsays (26 Jan 2019 5.05pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Badger11's Profile Badger11 Flag Beckenham 26 Jan 19 5.06pm Send a Private Message to Badger11 Add Badger11 as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I will be very interested to learn what you believe the job of an MP is.

Please enlighten me as I think this is likely to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how British democracy operates but am always prepared to admit I am wrong.

I have A and O levels in politics and a CSE grade 1 in Civics. That does not make me an expert but I think I am fairly well informed about the role of Parliament.

MPs are not delegates as you point at but they are representatives and that means they have to representative something broadly in line with what they told the voters when they campaigned.

At the last election most of our MPs stood on a pro Brexit platform if they now wish to change their mind
and Remain the honourable thing to do is to resign and argue their corner with the voters.

I would have thought that Remainers would agree that putting this to the public would be a good thing after all we are told that the mood has swung to Remain. It would also mean that those individual MPs especially Labour would not have to hope that Mrs May called a GE they could control the agenda. imagine 70 odd Tory and Labour MPs being re-elected on a pro Remain ticket.

By the way my original comments were a bit tongue in cheek as I was annoyed with the arrogant attitude of this MP. I thought I bet you wouldn't put your job on the line with the voters.

This logic also applies to MPs who switch parties or go independent. Unless they are prepared to submit to the rigours of an election they will not be respected by me.

I do not expect MPs to consult constituents on every minor decision but the 2017 election was mainly fought on Brexit and they should respect that.

 


One more point

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steve1984 26 Jan 19 6.04pm

It's really depressing that after all this time, people still don't understand how a representative democracy functions.

MPs are not under any legal or constitutional obligation to honour the result of the referendum. That is not how it works and it never has.

 

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ChrisGC Flag Wantage 26 Jan 19 6.22pm

Originally posted by steve1984

It's really depressing that after all this time, people still don't understand how a representative democracy functions.

MPs are not under any legal or constitutional obligation to honour the result of the referendum. That is not how it works and it never has.

Correct, do you want a medal for stating the obvious?

Bit of a dilemma for them: implement what they promised in their election manifesto, or upset the political elite.

Either way, their snouts are at risk of being taken out of the trough either short term by the electorate or long term by the establishment: and vice versa should they renegade.

Good. Do as you have been instructed to democratically and promised you'd fulfill, regardless of the fact that you can wriggle out of it on the grounds of "you can't make me act against my own selfish interests" because it's 'advisory'.

Charlatans.

 

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Pussay Patrol Flag 26 Jan 19 6.26pm

Originally posted by the silurian

Can one of the 'experts' on here please explain what will happen IF there is another (2nd referendum) and the result is in favour of LEAVE again?? Will the remoaners then stop bitching about 'we know best' and accept the decision or will they immediately start calling for best of 3 or best of 5 or 7.....

Remainers want what is best for our country and don't feel Brexit is better for the future of our country, there's no evidence to suggest it is. The referendum was not a competition of winners and losers, and to suggest it is the be all and end all is simply childish

 


Paua oouaarancì Irà chiyeah Ishé galé ma ba oo ah

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