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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)
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 Wisbech Eagle  Truro Cornwall 23 Oct 19 1.11pm |
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Originally posted by Matov
On the other hand, fighting an election on a narrative that Labour has stifled Brexit might be even more damaging. I would guess that the thinking is that if Brexit is done then the GE can be fought on other issues. It's actually in every party's interest to "get it done" if they believe they can form, or be part of, the next government. That way they can take charge of the detailed negotiations and possibly even repeal the Brexit legislation and start afresh with the EU to negotiate a softer deal. Nothing actually changes until the transition period expires. Winning the GE is the key to what a new Parliament will do. There is a logic to their stance because despite all the Remainer bulls*** the reality remains that most people want Brexit done and dusted, not reversed. That's not completely true. Most people are tired of it and want it finished, but many would like to see the whole thing abandoned and therefore "done and dusted" in that way. If the opinion polls are to be believed there are actually now more people who want us to remain than leave. And that constituency break down of both the Brexit vote and the Euro elections must be the cause of many a sleepless night for Labour strategists. Again, ignore the Remainer hysteria and look at the hard numbers. Tells the tale of why Labour do not want to fight an election with Brexit as the main issue. Labour are the key to all of this, and have always been so. All these problems can be traced back to the formation of "Momentum" and their shoe horning of Corbyn in as leader. Without that and the mess it has created I doubt whether there would have ever been a referendum. Dumping Corbyn, moving swiftly back to the centre, embracing an unequivocal remain stance whilst promising substantive negotiations over free movement opt outs might just save them. And us.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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 SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 23 Oct 19 1.16pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I didn't. I thought the questioning was weak but his replies worse. Predicable, scripted half truths without any direct relevance to the questions. PMQs don't look like a comfortable place for Johnson to me. The fact that the questioning was weak made it pretty comfortable. Seemed in a jovial mood. He was procrastinating off the cuff pretty well. Complete night and day to May. He is, in reality, a buffoon but he does seem to be someone that takes great pleasure in regularly getting behind the wheel of the Etonian banterbus.
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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| steeleye20 Croydon 23 Oct 19 1.17pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I didn't. I thought the questioning was weak but his replies worse. Predicable, scripted half truths without any direct relevance to the questions. PMQs don't look like a comfortable place for Johnson to me. Johnson has not got his deal passed by the HOC, far from it, it is only the second reading. It was only approved by members voting tactically so they can apply their amendments to it at this stage. Now they can scrutinise it the will soon find what a load of old cobblers it is, not least that it appears to be joining the EU not leaving it. All stages have to be passed and the legislation done before the HOC gives approval by 'meaningful vote'. I don't actually think Johnson knows much about his own bill. If we stay as we are then we will be far better off.
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| susmik PLYMOUTH -But Made in Old Coulsdon... 23 Oct 19 1.17pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
That is somewhat generous of you!! "The prime minister told the House there would be no checks on good moving between Great Britain and Northern Ireland," says Jeremy Corbyn. "Yesterday the Brexit Secretary confirmed that Northern Ireland businesses would have to complete export declaration forms. "Is the PM right or is the Brexit Secretary right?", he asks. Boris Johnson replies: "There will be no checks between Northern Ireland and Great Britain." Is the PM or Mr Corbyn right? I don't think Johnson knows his arse from his elbow.
Supported Palace for over 69 years since the age of 7 and have seen all the ups and downs and will probably see many more ups and downs before I go up to the big football club in the sky. |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 23 Oct 19 1.23pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I didn't. I thought the questioning was weak but his replies worse. Predicable, scripted half truths without any direct relevance to the questions. PMQs don't look like a comfortable place for Johnson to me. Labourite spectacles.
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| robdave2k 23 Oct 19 1.25pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I would also suggest Truro is not taking the same hit that other parts of the country do with immigration. It isn't but maybe that enables the people here not to be blindsided by it. Immigration won't decrease because of Brexit. The source of the immigrants might change though. Your choice of language is interesting Blindsided - make (someone) unable to perceive the truth of a situation. So you are stating what you know is truth yet the rest of us mere Maybe I could argue against the Coastguard, because I don’t need them in Northamptonshire half as much as you do in Cornwall. But I wouldn’t presume to lecture someone that I’m right over that as i accept there is a problem elsewhere! Edited by robdave2k (23 Oct 2019 1.26pm)
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 23 Oct 19 2.15pm |
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Originally posted by robdave2k
Your choice of language is interesting Blindsided - make (someone) unable to perceive the truth of a situation. So you are stating what you know is truth yet the rest of us mere Maybe I could argue against the Coastguard, because I don’t need them in Northamptonshire half as much as you do in Cornwall. But I wouldn’t presume to lecture someone that I’m right over that as i accept there is a problem elsewhere! Edited by robdave2k (23 Oct 2019 1.26pm) I think you might be surprised at quite how many recent immigrants we have here. Like many other places we have seen a big inflow from eastern Europe in recent years who are working in many segments of the economy, not least agriculture. What we haven't seen is too much from elsewhere, so they don't look obvious. Indeed until you hear them speaking to each other in social situations you often don't know they are immigrants. I have no expectation that our need for immigration will decrease because of Brexit, only that the sources will likely be different. That's what I mean by being blindsided. That there will be change but quite possible a change that you won't actually like.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Teddy Eagle  23 Oct 19 2.20pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I think you might be surprised at quite how many recent immigrants we have here. Like many other places we have seen a big inflow from eastern Europe in recent years who are working in many segments of the economy, not least agriculture. What we haven't seen is too much from elsewhere, so they don't look obvious. Indeed until you hear them speaking to each other in social situations you often don't know they are immigrants. I have no expectation that our need for immigration will decrease because of Brexit, only that the sources will likely be different. That's what I mean by being blindsided. That there will be change but quite possible a change that you won't actually like. So who did these jobs until this recent “inflow” and what are they doing now?
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 23 Oct 19 2.21pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
Labourite spectacles. Just my ears. I was listening to radio 4. My glasses are varifocal, reactor lights. Not a hint of labourite there. They allow me to see everything in a clear way, whatever the outside conditions do to try to disrupt your vision. You should try them. Single lenses tend to offer a very narrow view of the world!
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Badger11 Beckenham 23 Oct 19 2.25pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I think you might be surprised at quite how many recent immigrants we have here. Like many other places we have seen a big inflow from eastern Europe in recent years who are working in many segments of the economy, not least agriculture. What we haven't seen is too much from elsewhere, so they don't look obvious. Indeed until you hear them speaking to each other in social situations you often don't know they are immigrants. I have no expectation that our need for immigration will decrease because of Brexit, only that the sources will likely be different. That's what I mean by being blindsided. That there will be change but quite possible a change that you won't actually like. The change I want in immigration is quality not quantity. Unskilled low paid foreign workers cost the taxpayer a fortune because they entitled to benefits. Just use an online benefits entitlement calculator if you don't believe me. I would ban foreign workers (as opposed to refugees) from being able to collect benefits for at least 3-5 years. If the companies offering Macjobs want them so much then they can pay for them. There would be an exception to this in sectors where we need them e.g. NHS and social care, we don't need barista's or burger flippers. People with proper skills that this country needs will be on a decent salary anyway so the benefits issue is irrelevant. Here's hoping..
One more point |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 23 Oct 19 2.34pm |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
So who did these jobs until this recent “inflow” and what are they doing now? I don't think there is a simple or single answer to that. There has also been a significant growth in the numbers of people retiring here and they now constitute a higher proportion of the population. Some are active and others less so. Like everywhere else we are living longer and the birth rate has declined. Some of the younger people look for work "up country" where the pay is now much better. This is a low wage economy. So we need people to work in the fields, in the building industry serving the needs of the newly arrived active retired. The tourist and local leisure industry demand a lot of labour. The NHS is a big employer here, as are care homes. There just isn't a pool of local people able and willing to service the needs of the people who now live here.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 23 Oct 19 2.52pm |
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Originally posted by Willo
MPs have taken the electorate for buffoons and made our nation the laughing stock abroad. Remainer/opposition MPs somewhat peeved that Johnson actually agreed a deal with the EU almost instantly moved the goalposts and determined to force him into a delay passed an amendment to prevent him from meeting the 19th October deadline.The reason was purely to thwart Brexit and they should be ashamed of themselves. MPs voted for a second reading of the WAB but it is as plain as the 'Aurora Borealis' that the remainers would have raised amendment after amendment and it would appear that Johnson has decided that any extension to the timetable would be worthless.He will call for a General Election but of course needs 2/3 of MPs to agree - we will see if Labour try to thwart this as well after repeatedly calling for a GE. Edited by Willo (23 Oct 2019 9.18am) Sounds like Corbyn’s career. Appropriate then.
COYP |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 23 Oct 19 4.20pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Just my ears. I was listening to radio 4. My glasses are varifocal, reactor lights. Not a hint of labourite there. They allow me to see everything in a clear way, whatever the outside conditions do to try to disrupt your vision. You should try them. Single lenses tend to offer a very narrow view of the world!
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| the silurian The garden of England.(not really) 23 Oct 19 4.34pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Of course you aren't always wrong! You are probably right in one of your above remarks. Explain to me though why saying "people like you" is an insult? I am proud to be associated with people who think like me. Are you ashamed to be associated with people who think like you? Not at all, I have more reason than most on here to wish for brexit to be cancelled BUT I believe in democracy, leave won the vote and the lying cheating self serving MPs are doing their utmost to stop brexit from happening....just hope that ALL the MPs who changed parties get their just desserts and lose their seat at the GE, people like Soubry, Umuna, Gymnah (sp) Hammond, all of them self serving cheating lying b******s.....I wont be voting anyway, waste of time as they ignore the peoples vote, whats to stop them doing it again.....2nd referendum? No whats the point, if they lose they'll just call for a 3rd 4th 5th until they get their way.....by the way, nice sly insult at the start of your post !! PS they are reactalights !!
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| Willo South coast - west of Brighton. 23 Oct 19 4.53pm |
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Originally posted by the silurian
Not at all, I have more reason than most on here to wish for brexit to be cancelled BUT I believe in democracy, leave won the vote and the lying cheating self serving MPs are doing their utmost to stop brexit from happening....just hope that ALL the MPs who changed parties get their just desserts and lose their seat at the GE, people like Soubry, Umuna, Gymnah (sp) Hammond, all of them self serving cheating lying b******s.....I wont be voting anyway, waste of time as they ignore the peoples vote, whats to stop them doing it again.....2nd referendum? No whats the point, if they lose they'll just call for a 3rd 4th 5th until they get their way.....by the way, nice sly insult at the start of your post !! PS they are reactalights !! Sam Gyimah who joined the Lib Dems certainly won't be re-elected as MP for Surrey East if he stands in that constituency as it is a rock-solid Conservative seat with majorities of over 22,500 in the last two General Elections.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 23 Oct 19 4.56pm |
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Originally posted by the silurian
Not at all, I have more reason than most on here to wish for brexit to be cancelled BUT I believe in democracy, leave won the vote and the lying cheating self serving MPs are doing their utmost to stop brexit from happening....just hope that ALL the MPs who changed parties get their just desserts and lose their seat at the GE, people like Soubry, Umuna, Gymnah (sp) Hammond, all of them self serving cheating lying b******s.....I wont be voting anyway, waste of time as they ignore the peoples vote, whats to stop them doing it again.....2nd referendum? No whats the point, if they lose they'll just call for a 3rd 4th 5th until they get their way.....by the way, nice sly insult at the start of your post !! PS they are reactalights !! This idea that "leave won the vote" so therefore Parliament must do whatever the government of the day decides that means needs to be laid to rest, once for all. Some of this will be familiar but as these ideas continue to be promoted they also need to be confronted and contested. The leave campaigns gained a small majority in a referendum. Ignoring the fact that many, (including our intelligence services), believe that result was tainted by outside interference Parliament triggered Article 50. In so doing they met their commitment to respect the result. Everything since has not been about whether we leave, but how we do so. As there has been such a delay some now feel it would be appropriate to ask the people what they currently think, now that they have 3 years of experience and that Parliament itself is unable to find the answer. The MPs who changed parties did so because they felt no longer able to commit to the policy of their old party. That's being honest. It's not cheating, lying or self serving in any way. It's just the way our democracy works. MP's, being representatives and not delegates, are neither obliged nor expected to carry out the wishes of the majority who elected them. Their duty is to do what their conscience tells them is right. We are where we are because of our democracy and not because some MPs are trying to spite it. They are reactor lights in my opticians!
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 23 Oct 19 5.26pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
This idea that "leave won the vote" so therefore Parliament must do whatever the government of the day decides that means needs to be laid to rest, once for all. Some of this will be familiar but as these ideas continue to be promoted they also need to be confronted and contested. The leave campaigns gained a small majority in a referendum. Ignoring the fact that many, (including our intelligence services), believe that result was tainted by outside interference Parliament triggered Article 50. In so doing they met their commitment to respect the result. Everything since has not been about whether we leave, but how we do so. As there has been such a delay some now feel it would be appropriate to ask the people what they currently think, now that they have 3 years of experience and that Parliament itself is unable to find the answer. The MPs who changed parties did so because they felt no longer able to commit to the policy of their old party. That's being honest. It's not cheating, lying or self serving in any way. It's just the way our democracy works. MP's, being representatives and not delegates, are neither obliged nor expected to carry out the wishes of the majority who elected them. Their duty is to do what their conscience tells them is right. We are where we are because of our democracy and not because some MPs are trying to spite it. They are reactor lights in my opticians! I really don't agree with putting anything more to the people. For a very long time. Let Parliament do its work, we are clearly into the end game now and it looks like we are finally going to leave with a deal by end of Jan. Both 'sides' have to accept compromise and get this done. As is shown endlessly on this thread the issue is now so partisan people seem to have taken leave of their objective, rational senses and their ability to change minds or evolve opinion. Let's get this sorted and then whatever reality ensues, positive or negative, people will have to deal with the choices they made and the positions they took. Only then will people be able to say, definitively, you were wrong, or you were right. All that said, I'd expect a fair few to remain in denial even as they trudge off to collect their P45, or witness sustained growth in the economy. These people should be sectioned and ignored, for they are no better than dogmatic, brainwashed, ignorant religious fanatics. I have my guesses as to who on this thread falls into that category. Time will tell.
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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| the silurian The garden of England.(not really) 23 Oct 19 5.59pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
This idea that "leave won the vote" so therefore Parliament must do whatever the government of the day decides that means needs to be laid to rest, once for all. Some of this will be familiar but as these ideas continue to be promoted they also need to be confronted and contested. The leave campaigns gained a small majority in a referendum. Ignoring the fact that many, (including our intelligence services), believe that result was tainted by outside interference Parliament triggered Article 50. In so doing they met their commitment to respect the result. Everything since has not been about whether we leave, but how we do so. As there has been such a delay some now feel it would be appropriate to ask the people what they currently think, now that they have 3 years of experience and that Parliament itself is unable to find the answer. The MPs who changed parties did so because they felt no longer able to commit to the policy of their old party. That's being honest. It's not cheating, lying or self serving in any way. It's just the way our democracy works. MP's, being representatives and not delegates, are neither obliged nor expected to carry out the wishes of the majority who elected them. Their duty is to do what their conscience tells them is right. We are where we are because of our democracy and not because some MPs are trying to spite it. They are reactor lights in my opticians! yeah ok whatever! Should have gone to SpecSavers!! I just feel that if an MP is elected as a conservative/labour/liberal and the defect to another party, there should be an immediate by election...after all their constituents didnt vote in a tory, only to be represented by a liberal did they, even if it is the same person...I hope all the defectors lose their jobs at the GE. Ok you want another referendum, but what will change, the MPs will STILL IGNORE the result unless its the result they want..ie REMAIN.....and my opinion, as valid as yours, is that they are lazy self serving lying b******s! That will not change so I will never vote again! Edited by the silurian (23 Oct 2019 6.00pm)
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| Matov 23 Oct 19 6.12pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
LOL. I would like to think that I fall into at least 3 out of those 4 categories. And sectioning people? I suspect that would be the tactic should you get your ways about voting not being allowed to matter for very much in the future. Perhaps the only true revelation to come from this Brexit fiasco is how fragile our collective notion of universal suffrage is. Of how it has only taken a single vote to go against how the supposed 'brightest and best' wanted it to and all of a sudden the basic principles of our democratic process in terms of one person, one vote suddenly becomes seen as a stumbling block. Makes you realise how events in both Greece and Italy with Governments of technocrats being effectively imposed supposedly independent nations as their rulers actually is in line with much of supposed progressive thinking. We are heading into scary, scary times. And perhaps people such as myself are like Dinosaures with a socially liberal asteroid hurtling towards me and my kind at a speed that is frightening but I still have a choice as to whether I meet my end cowering in a cave or decide to take a stand out in the bright sunshine, defiantly sticking two fingers up and ready to head-butt my oncoming destruction full-on in the face. Maybe I will end up sectioned but one thing I do know is that if I am locked up in a nuthouse, I will be in good company and we will still be more joyful and have more fun than the miserable, joyless, Godless f***s sticking us in there. But who knows? Perhaps tomorrow does belong to us after all. Interesting result recently in Poland and with Salvini flying high in the Italian polls, the Right still has the momentum despite all the s*** being chucked at it.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - 1984 - George Orwell. |
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cryrst  The garden of England 23 Oct 19 7.16pm |
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Originally posted by steeleye20
Johnson has not got his deal passed by the HOC, far from it, it is only the second reading. It was only approved by members voting tactically so they can apply their amendments to it at this stage. Now they can scrutinise it the will soon find what a load of old cobblers it is, not least that it appears to be joining the EU not leaving it. All stages have to be passed and the legislation done before the HOC gives approval by 'meaningful vote'. I don't actually think Johnson knows much about his own bill. If we stay as we are then we will be far better off.
Better off for how long.
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