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 Wisbech Eagle  Truro Cornwall 22 Feb 23 10.31pm |
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Originally posted by georgenorman
It is not a democracy if you can't elect the people that make the laws that govern you. You do but so do all those living in the EU. Not directly, because it works differently, but ultimately they elect those who take the decisions. That's still representative democracy. You just cannot accept that and want everything to be done the same way you are familiar with.
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| Tim Gypsy Hill '64 Stoke sub normal 23 Feb 23 1.00am |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
Now we are where we are I'm keen to go in whatever direction ends up being more beneficial to us as a country. i.e. follow the best path to success, whatever that may be, not make arbitrary decisions based on ideology. If Brexit is that path, then so be it – it would be hard to argue against prosperity and being 'better off' than our EU cousins. However, equally, we might not end up being in a better place, and in that scenario I get the feeling it would be hard for some on here to stomach / follow observable fact and evidence and ditch an almost religious adherence to ideology. So to answer your first question, I wouldn't need to cut off my nose in that scenario anyway because I'm not wedded to either one of the 'democracy at all costs' vs 'EU at all costs' ideology debate. I'm just going to evolve my viewpoint as the situation develops. Y'know, logic. Being open to change ones opinion depending on leaning, experience and observable reality and evidence rather than blindly sticking to a pre-determined ideology is pretty important in my view. One approach leads to success, the other, demise. On measurement – an unscientific, yet simple way of doing so would be to see how we're performing against other comparable countries still in the EU in a few years time. If we're doing better than them financially, socially, developmentally... that would be a pretty good sign we made the right choice by leaving. If you were to look at it more scientifically it would be complex but not impossible to research and produce a measured conclusion. So, after a lot of preamble, you have come up with "an unscientific, yet simple way of" measuring if it is working or not? Which appears to be, wait a few years and see. What was the point of your answer? You then seem to suggest measurement is not impossible. Surely your superiority can explain to us laymen how this complex research might be conducted. No? Highlighted Get over yourself. You are as thick as anyone else on here.
Systematically dragged down by the lawmakers |
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| georgenorman 23 Feb 23 7.14am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
You do but so do all those living in the EU. Not directly, because it works differently, but ultimately they elect those who take the decisions. That's still representative democracy. You just cannot accept that and want everything to be done the same way you are familiar with. And you simply want the last word on this.
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 HKOwen  Hong Kong 23 Feb 23 8.13am |
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Let' s try this way. Who is responsible for drawing up new legislation in the EU? Who is responsible for promulgating the legislation and putting it into effect/becoming law? The answer seems to be the European Commission which with few exceptions has control over all legislation. Each member state has one commissioner. the last British commissioner was a civil servant. That to me is having no control over legislation and having an unelected representative who is chosen by the Govt of the day.
Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 23 Feb 23 8.39am |
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Originally posted by georgenorman
And you simply want the last word on this. Last word? Somehow I doubt that, but we will see. No democratic system is perfect. You have only to read the various threads on this site to recognise the weaknesses of our particular system. The real question is which system delivers and whether, ultimately, the people can change it. It seems to me that you have a starry eyed view of the UK system which is completely unrealistic and that if the EU one delivered million £ lifestyles to everyone you would still complain that it's not democratic. It doesn't deliver million £ lifestyles, but it does deliver better ones. The EU isn't perfect either. It necessarily involves compromises in order to achieve results, but as it's the results which are actually important why get over concerned about them? All politics demand compromise. At every level of society. The needs and rights of others who hold alternative views need to be understood, respected and accommodated. That's nothing new. Compromise became the guiding principle as soon as we stopped being ruled by all powerful kings.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 23 Feb 23 8.54am |
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Originally posted by Tim Gypsy Hill '64
So, after a lot of preamble, you have come up with "an unscientific, yet simple way of" measuring if it is working or not? Which appears to be, wait a few years and see. What was the point of your answer? You then seem to suggest measurement is not impossible. Surely your superiority can explain to us laymen how this complex research might be conducted. No? Highlighted Get over yourself. You are as thick as anyone else on here. I was simplifying for the benefit of the audience. Your emotional outburst is also rather obviously incorrect, it’s an observable fact that the levels of stupidity on this, or any forum for that matter, run deep and are richly varied. I mean, you’re demonstrating that right now - age clearly does not always equate to intelligence or wisdom, in fact statistically it results in gradual, sometimes aggressive, cognitive decline. Which can be a big problem if already starting from a low base. Also, and this made me chuckle, ‘Come up with’? Expects someone to lay out and devise, in detail, an exact method for measurement as to whether we are doing better or worse because of Brexit in 5 minutes. On a forum. I’m more sure than you are about who is the ‘thick’ one here. The point, which you’ve both missed and not responded properly to, is that a body of individuals with the qualifications, intelligence and time to do so will at some point pull together a comprehensive study that concludes either way. That conclusion will then be an excellent guide as to whether leaving or staying was or would have been the better option. Until that occurs, I see little value in debating using ideological absolutisms either way especially when many are suggesting that the outcome is irrelevant ‘because democracy’. Slavishly adhering to ideology regardless of outcome is about as stupid as it gets. Again - uncomfortable for some, but it may well be that the price of prosperity is in fact compromising on full Independence and having to rejoin. It also may not and we will end up better off than the EU. But you need to be open to the fact that either could turn out to be true. Edited by SW19 CPFC (23 Feb 2023 8.54am)
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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| georgenorman 23 Feb 23 9.09am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Last word? Somehow I doubt that, but we will see. No democratic system is perfect. You have only to read the various threads on this site to recognise the weaknesses of our particular system. The real question is which system delivers and whether, ultimately, the people can change it. It seems to me that you have a starry eyed view of the UK system which is completely unrealistic and that if the EU one delivered million £ lifestyles to everyone you would still complain that it's not democratic. It doesn't deliver million £ lifestyles, but it does deliver better ones. The EU isn't perfect either. It necessarily involves compromises in order to achieve results, but as it's the results which are actually important why get over concerned about them? All politics demand compromise. At every level of society. The needs and rights of others who hold alternative views need to be understood, respected and accommodated. That's nothing new. Compromise became the guiding principle as soon as we stopped being ruled by all powerful kings. Dictators throughout the ages have used similar arguments. Certainly our system is not perfect, but it is far more democratic than the EU.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 23 Feb 23 9.16am |
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Originally posted by HKOwen
Let' s try this way. Who is responsible for drawing up new legislation in the EU? Who is responsible for promulgating the legislation and putting it into effect/becoming law? The answer seems to be the European Commission which with few exceptions has control over all legislation. Each member state has one commissioner. the last British commissioner was a civil servant. That to me is having no control over legislation and having an unelected representative who is chosen by the Govt of the day.
The EU necessarily works differently to national parliaments. The real question is not whether it's different, because it is, but whether it works. The Commission develops legislation to meet the objectives set out in the Treaties. They don't put it into law. The Council, and the Parliament, do that. The Parliament can both amend legislation and request the Commission to prepare it. It can also dismiss the Commission. The Commissioners are not politicians. They are administrators, working under delegated authority. They might be chosen by the "government of the day" but we choose that government. Those who wish to see all decisions taken locally are never going to accept the EU. Their only question is how local is local. For others the principle of subsidiarity makes practical sense. The only question for them is where the line is drawn.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Teddy Eagle  23 Feb 23 9.27am |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
I was simplifying for the benefit of the audience. Your emotional outburst is also rather obviously incorrect, it’s an observable fact that the levels of stupidity on this, or any forum for that matter, run deep and are richly varied. I mean, you’re demonstrating that right now - age clearly does not always equate to intelligence or wisdom, in fact statistically it results in gradual, sometimes aggressive, cognitive decline. Which can be a big problem if already starting from a low base. Also, and this made me chuckle, ‘Come up with’? Expects someone to lay out and devise, in detail, an exact method for measurement as to whether we are doing better or worse because of Brexit in 5 minutes. On a forum. I’m more sure than you are about who is the ‘thick’ one here. The point, which you’ve both missed and not responded properly to, is that a body of individuals with the qualifications, intelligence and time to do so will at some point pull together a comprehensive study that concludes either way. That conclusion will then be an excellent guide as to whether leaving or staying was or would have been the better option. Until that occurs, I see little value in debating using ideological absolutisms either way especially when many are suggesting that the outcome is irrelevant ‘because democracy’. Slavishly adhering to ideology regardless of outcome is about as stupid as it gets. Again - uncomfortable for some, but it may well be that the price of prosperity is in fact compromising on full Independence and having to rejoin. It also may not and we will end up better off than the EU. But you need to be open to the fact that either could turn out to be true. Edited by SW19 CPFC (23 Feb 2023 8.54am) How lucky we are that the HOL operates as a benign geniocracy.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 23 Feb 23 9.29am |
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Originally posted by georgenorman
Dictators throughout the ages have used similar arguments. Certainly our system is not perfect, but it is far more democratic than the EU. Despite the frequently heard claims to the contrary the EU is not a dictator. It is founded in it's shared democracies. Brexit proves that! Whether more, or less, than other democratic systems is an irrelevancy. What's important is outcomes. When it's the task of our elected representatives to take decisions which are in our best interests I want them to do that. If that means delegating some of those decisions to others then they have done the job we require of them. That's democracy.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 23 Feb 23 10.04am |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
How lucky we are that the HOL operates as a benign geniocracy. Ha. A significant number of contributors to these political threads are about as benign as they are close to meeting the qualifying criteria for a geniocracy.
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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| georgenorman 23 Feb 23 10.06am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Despite the frequently heard claims to the contrary the EU is not a dictator. It is founded in it's shared democracies. Brexit proves that! Whether more, or less, than other democratic systems is an irrelevancy. What's important is outcomes. When it's the task of our elected representatives to take decisions which are in our best interests I want them to do that. If that means delegating some of those decisions to others then they have done the job we require of them. That's democracy. It's not democracy. Edited by georgenorman (23 Feb 2023 10.28am)
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