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 Wisbech Eagle  Truro Cornwall 24 Feb 23 9.19am |
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Originally posted by Teddy Eagle
Can only assume no one knew the amount involved before or did Remain publicise the likely costs? I can't remember. The "Remain" campaign was very poor which together with the fact that selling the status quo is never as sexy as selling something new and unknown, plus a sense of complacency, led to it failing. That it only just failed in those circumstances is instructive! I don't think anyone involved tried to measure these costs or thought they needed to. Their complacency meant they thought they could brush aside UKIP and the "savings" claims. The politicians understood their fallacy, which is why they were overwhelmingly in favour of Remaining, and seemed to think everyone else did too. The Brexit referendum was a disaster from start to finish. It was throwing our future to the winds of political chance and allowing malign actors both at home and overseas to exercise undue influence. It must never happen again. We must choose our representatives carefully and then allow them to do their job.
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| YT Oxford 24 Feb 23 9.34am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The "Remain" campaign was very poor which together with the fact that selling the status quo is never as sexy as selling something new and unknown, plus a sense of complacency, led to it failing. That it only just failed in those circumstances is instructive! I don't think anyone involved tried to measure these costs or thought they needed to. Their complacency meant they thought they could brush aside UKIP and the "savings" claims. The politicians understood their fallacy, which is why they were overwhelmingly in favour of Remaining, and seemed to think everyone else did too. The Brexit referendum was a disaster from start to finish. It was throwing our future to the winds of political chance and allowing malign actors both at home and overseas to exercise undue influence. It must never happen again. We must choose our representatives carefully and then allow them to do their job. Except our representatives are also chosen in the face of the winds of political chance, under the influence of maligned (I think you meant) actors.
Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes) |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Feb 23 9.36am |
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Originally posted by georgenorman
Of course we gave up our national sovereignty, albeit with the ability to take it back as we did with Brexit. To deny it is a myth which is used by the Remainer lobby to justify some extremely irresponsible claims. Our withdrawal will cost billions? I would wager our membership would cost us much more. You do spout some complete nonsense. The very fact that we were able to enact Brexit proves, beyond the slightest doubt, that our sovereignty has never been compromised. Delegation of actions doesn't imply you give up any responsibility for them. We do it all the time in other areas, without our sovereignty being affected. Our membership of the EU was no different. I suggest you reflect on the post I made at 10.49 pm yesterday and read the link provided by Teddy. This is the only analysis I have read to date on the comparative costs, and this doesn't include many of the hidden ones. It's pretty obvious that Brexit is many times more expensive than our membership was. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (24 Feb 2023 9.37am)
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Feb 23 9.57am |
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Originally posted by Badger11
On the point would we have been economically better off staying in the EU rather than leaving this came up during the Brexit debate on here and my opinion hasn't changed, its pure conjecture either way. You can speculate by pointing to similar countries but there are so many variables whether you are Pro or Remain it is just guess work. I think the only thing you can do is ask people how they feel which for most is not scientific but emotional. Right now we are still untangling ourselves from the EU and this government has yet to have a bonfire of EU red tape or grasp the opportunities. The cost of living crisis has distorted how people fell anyway. Perhaps in 5 years time we will have a better idea. Whilst determining the comparative costs cannot be an accounting exercise it is far from just conjecture. Broad brush calculations by expert analysts can provide sufficient information to know the answers. Only if it was a close run thing would conjecture matter, but it seems it isn't. Look at my post at 10.49 pm yesterday, and the link provided by Teddy. It might be uncomfortable reading for those who want to believe that we will save money through Brexit, but it seems pretty conclusive that what appears obvious to me, is true. Brexit was a mistake in every possible way, including financial. The idea that we will have a bonfire of EU red tape is nonsense. The truth is that we need to retrieve most of it to build our own structures, using a lot of labour to do so, and then keep on building structures and employing people to maintain them. This will cost more than delegating it to the EU. What's the point of "taking back control" if we end up in broadly the same place but the ticket to get there costs 10 times as much? We don't need to wait 5 years to know this. It's obvious now and will only be more so then.
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HKOwen  Hong Kong 24 Feb 23 11.16am |
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This is like a broken tap of nonsense that won't stop dripping no matter how much white tape you put on the thread. Edited by HKOwen (24 Feb 2023 11.17am)
Responsibility Deficit Disorder is a medical condition. Symptoms include inability to be corrected when wrong, false sense of superiority, desire to share personal info no else cares about, general hubris. It's a medical issue rather than pure arrogance. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 24 Feb 23 11.58am |
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Originally posted by YT
Except our representatives are also chosen in the face of the winds of political chance, under the influence of maligned (I think you meant) actors. I don't argue that our present system is perfect, or incapable of substantial improvement. Hence, the "carefully". Imperfect though it is, it is still better than a referendum. It might still be subject to the winds of political chance, but the referendum faced a hurricane of opportunism and misinformation. We can also reverse mistakes every 5 years. If only we could do the same with Brexit!
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| Hrolf The Ganger 24 Feb 23 12.55pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
The "Remain" campaign was very poor which together with the fact that selling the status quo is never as sexy as selling something new and unknown, plus a sense of complacency, led to it failing. That it only just failed in those circumstances is instructive! I don't think anyone involved tried to measure these costs or thought they needed to. Their complacency meant they thought they could brush aside UKIP and the "savings" claims. The politicians understood their fallacy, which is why they were overwhelmingly in favour of Remaining, and seemed to think everyone else did too. The Brexit referendum was a disaster from start to finish. It was throwing our future to the winds of political chance and allowing malign actors both at home and overseas to exercise undue influence. It must never happen again. We must choose our representatives carefully and then allow them to do their job. Remainers are like spoilt children who can't get their own way. Your endless excuses about losing a democratic referendum are increasingly embarrassing.
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 24 Feb 23 1.09pm |
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Aha, something useful at last. Although it is from full fact... don't most righties deride it? (Personally I find it pretty helpful) Summarising Over 45 years the EU cost us an estimated £216 billion, net (net of what I'm not sure, but lets go with it for now) That's about 4.8bn a year since we joined. Taking the lower figure of what the estimated next cost of leaving up to 2020 has been... Over 1 year (18-20) the estimated net cost was £130 billion 45 years – £216 billion Now I know it takes time to try and make this work, and hopefully it does, but if it's only taken one year to get us to 60% of that 45 year figure... Jesus. I'd be interested to know what it's up to now, let alone what it will be a decade on in 2028. It would not be unreasonable to suggest much, much higher. Let's hope our overlords can actually make this work, eh?
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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| Hrolf The Ganger 24 Feb 23 1.22pm |
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Originally posted by SW19 CPFC
Aha, something useful at last. Although it is from full fact... don't most righties deride it? (Personally I find it pretty helpful) Summarising Over 45 years the EU cost us an estimated £216 billion, net (net of what I'm not sure, but lets go with it for now) That's about 4.8bn a year since we joined. Taking the lower figure of what the estimated next cost of leaving up to 2020 has been... Over 1 year (18-20) the estimated net cost was £130 billion 45 years – £216 billion Now I know it takes time to try and make this work, and hopefully it does, but if it's only taken one year to get us to 60% of that 45 year figure... Jesus. I'd be interested to know what it's up to now, let alone what it will be a decade on in 2028. It would not be unreasonable to suggest much, much higher. Let's hope our overlords can actually make this work, eh? It's funny how remainers want to make it all about money. Brexit was never all about money and it never will be. Also, it's even more amusing that you are happy to extrapolate the costy of Brexit using current figures but find it illogical to do so with population on another thread.
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 24 Feb 23 1.36pm |
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Originally posted by Tim Gypsy Hill '64
I was simplifying for the benefit of the audience. (You don't need to, the audience is generally smarter than you. However, you think that your intelligence is superior to most others of your species, as proved below.) Your emotional outburst (what emotional outburst? Explain how you came to that conclusion) is also rather obviously incorrect, it’s an observable fact that the levels of stupidity on this, or any forum for that matter, run deep and are richly varied. I mean, you’re demonstrating that right now - age clearly does not always equate to intelligence or wisdom, in fact statistically it results in gradual, sometimes aggressive, cognitive decline. Which can be a big problem if already starting from a low base.(see above. Superiority complex writ large.) Also, and this made me chuckle, ‘Come up with’? Expects someone to lay out and devise, in detail, an exact method for measurement as to whether we are doing better or worse because of Brexit in 5 minutes. On a forum. I’m more sure than you are about who is the ‘thick’ one here.(I asked you how it would be measured, you said "an unscientific, yet simple way of doing so would be to see how we're performing against other comparable countries still in the EU in a few years time". It's hardly an answer from someone who ranks himself in the top 5% intelligentsia. Unscientific is less than thick, it's worthless. Just say you can't answer the question.) The point, which you’ve both missed and not responded properly to, is that a body of individuals with the qualifications, intelligence and time to do so will at some point pull together a comprehensive study that concludes either way. That conclusion will then be an excellent guide as to whether leaving or staying was or would have been the better option.(If only you'd said that, instead of pretending to have the answer) Until that occurs, I see little value in debating using ideological absolutisms either way especially when many are suggesting that the outcome is irrelevant ‘because democracy’. Slavishly adhering to ideology regardless of outcome is about as stupid as it gets. Again - uncomfortable for some, but it may well be that the price of prosperity is in fact compromising on full Independence and having to rejoin. It also may not and we will end up better off than the EU. But you need to be open to the fact that either could turn out to be true.( I agree with you on all the rest of your snipe.) Edited by Tim Gypsy Hill '64 (24 Feb 2023 1.18am) Oh contrare I know. Day to day life has been more than enough to prove that one out. The thing you're accusing me of, you are now demonstrating in equal measure. Clearly having limited success in a forgotten corner of the medical profession gives you some strange sense of scientific godliness. Disillusioned, ostracised, whatever keeps your fire burning. Currently, discovering basic labelling and colours. How wonderful. I gave two answers to 'how it would be measured'. One was an (as labelled, clearly) unscientific guess, a musing, based on personal reasoning, the other a suggestion as to where or how one might actually find a credible scientific/statistical answer. Nowhere did I state 'this is the answer! Answer here... Right here! I'm an expert and I've spent years focused on this one thing... and here it is!' Don't be so silly. Do you equate intelligence with being an expert in everything? Because someone intelligent would also know that is an impossibility, and that's certainly not how I present my side in debates. Do please return to withering away in retirement and take that massive chip on your shoulder with you.
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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| georgenorman 24 Feb 23 1.42pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
You do spout some complete nonsense. The very fact that we were able to enact Brexit proves, beyond the slightest doubt, that our sovereignty has never been compromised. Delegation of actions doesn't imply you give up any responsibility for them. We do it all the time in other areas, without our sovereignty being affected. Our membership of the EU was no different. I suggest you reflect on the post I made at 10.49 pm yesterday and read the link provided by Teddy. This is the only analysis I have read to date on the comparative costs, and this doesn't include many of the hidden ones. It's pretty obvious that Brexit is many times more expensive than our membership was. Edited by Wisbech Eagle (24 Feb 2023 9.37am) Rather than “some complete nonsense”, the majority of what you spout is complete nonsense.
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| SW19 CPFC Addiscombe West 24 Feb 23 1.53pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
It's funny how remainers want to make it all about money. Brexit was never all about money and it never will be. Also, it even more amusing that you are happy to extrapolate the costy of Brexit using current figures but find it illogical to do so with population on another thread.
Er Money is a pretty big factor. You are right in saying it's not the only one, but it's amongst the biggest as it has direct impact on everything, from society to resources to prosperity... And you've neatly summarised the stupidity of ideological and dogmatic decison making on both side of the debate 'I don't care about the outcome, or what's likely to be more beneficial, I just want brexit / to stay in the EU'. You're constantly banging on about your grandchildren – if leaving delivers ideologically but in your lifetime demonstrates a negative outcome, therefore a more negative existence for those in the future, and you still stick to your dogma... that's illogical. I'm not even a remainer FFS, I've evolved my view on leaving and I'm fully behind giving it a go as no one can say either way that it will be worse or better medium to long term. But crucially I will adapt my view as we progress, not stay stuck in time. In some ways I respect the commitment but don't understand the logic. On the point about extrapolation – two completely different topics, with two completely different data sets. One completely measurable, simpler to define and with decades of historical data. One with (based on the shared link on the other thread) two years of historical hard to estimate data on something that has never been done before. In that case, literally the only thing you can do is extrapolate based on the little data there is available. In the former, you can be far more rigorous and potentially, accurate. It's also not unreasonable to suggest that based on current figures even if that 130bn were to taper down over the next 10 years and turn into a net positive, which might I add would be what I'd want it to do for all our sakes, it's still likely to be higher over 10 than our entire cost over 45. Fairly simple to understand, and a pretty balanced take. No point in you arguing figures anyway on this topic as you are only interested in this for ideological reasons, irrespective of outcome. Which is weird if you care about the future so much.
Did you know? 98.0000001% of people are morons. |
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