Can we adopt our 1861 date of birth?

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Can we adopt our 1861 date of birth?

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Qwijibo Bournemouth 29 Jan 14 7.37pm
[Link] The FA was formed there on 26 October 1863, a Monday evening. The captains, secretaries and other representatives of a dozen London and suburban clubs playing their own versions of football met “for the purpose of forming an Association with the object of establishing a definite code of rules for the regulation of the game”. The clubs represented were: Barnes, War Office, Crusaders, Forest (Leytonstone), No Names (Kilburn), Crystal Palace, Blackheath, Kensington School, Perceval House (Blackheath), Surbiton, Blackheath Proprietory School and Charterhouse. *This club has no connection with the present Championship club.

Qwijibo

Bournemouth 29 Jan 14 7.37pm

[Link]

The FA was formed there on 26 October 1863, a Monday evening. The captains, secretaries and other representatives of a dozen London and suburban clubs playing their own versions of football met “for the purpose of forming an Association with the object of establishing a definite code of rules for the regulation of the game”.

The clubs represented were: Barnes, War Office*, Crusaders, Forest (Leytonstone), No Names (Kilburn), Crystal Palace**, Blackheath, Kensington School, Perceval House (Blackheath), Surbiton, Blackheath Proprietory School and Charterhouse.

**This club has no connection with the present Championship club.

roman eagle South London 30 Jan 14 12.04pm
I've often wondered if there were any connection between the original and current clubs - a nice little project for someone with time on their hands (not me!). One question though - did the re-formed club have connections to the building itself? Did any of them work there for instance? This would seem to make a kind of link. Audentis fortuna iuvat (Virgil, 19BC)

roman eagle

South London 30 Jan 14 12.04pm

I've often wondered if there were any connection between the original and current clubs - a nice little project for someone with time on their hands (not me!). One question though - did the re-formed club have connections to the building itself? Did any of them work there for instance? This would seem to make a kind of link.

Audentis fortuna iuvat (Virgil, 19BC)

c_block_shedevil London 30 Jan 14 1.33pm
Quote adrian b at 29 Jan 2014 6.35pm Tyhe problem is there was never a place called Crystal Palace way back in 1860. It was Upper Norwood and the Hyde Park Exhibition was located there once it was dismantled in about 1852. That was called the national exhibition centre. But it did look like a Cystal Palace and so the name then stuck, as The Crystal Palace. The men who stuck it all together got together to play soccer and asked the football club from where they came from to donate shirts. That was Aston Villa, hence the Claret and Blue, but this works teams played in Upper Norwood. No real connection with a team called Crystal Palace. Pity really as 1905 is a late start for such a great club! Officially, there is still no place called Crystal Palace! Most of it is Upper Norwood. The rest split between Sydenham and Penge. (Anerley is also not an official area. It is known as Anerley because of the train station - a bit like Upton Park) I'm tough. I'm ambitious. I know exactly what I want. If that makes me a bitch, I'm OK with that.

c_block_shedevil

London 30 Jan 14 1.33pm

Quote adrian b at 29 Jan 2014 6.35pm

Tyhe problem is there was never a place called Crystal Palace way back in 1860. It was Upper Norwood and the Hyde Park Exhibition was located there once it was dismantled in about 1852. That was called the national exhibition centre. But it did look like a Cystal Palace and so the name then stuck, as The Crystal Palace. The men who stuck it all together got together to play soccer and asked the football club from where they came from to donate shirts. That was Aston Villa, hence the Claret and Blue, but this works teams played in Upper Norwood. No real connection with a team called Crystal Palace. Pity really as 1905 is a late start for such a great club!

Officially, there is still no place called Crystal Palace! Most of it is Upper Norwood. The rest split between Sydenham and Penge. (Anerley is also not an official area. It is known as Anerley because of the train station - a bit like Upton Park)

I'm tough. I'm ambitious. I know exactly what I want. If that makes me a bitch, I'm OK with that.

adrian b Landrindod, Wales 30 Jan 14 1.45pm
Quote regal_eagle at 29 Jan 2014 6.59pm Quote adrian b at 29 Jan 2014 6.35pm The men who stuck it all together got together to play soccer and asked the football club from where they came from to donate shirts. Is this 'make up history' day or something? You're nearly there, but not quite right. From what I've been told by relations and others who had family in the area at the time before the 'fire', The Crystal Palace was the old Empire Exhibition, moved across from Hyde Park after the Great Exhibition in 1850 (51?). When it was decided to move the whole edifice (Prince Albert's concept and love) to Upper Norwood he took his coach to visit it with Victoria and, as it was so far out of London, they had to stop at Crown Point to ask the way!. The work force and maintenance staff came from the Birminbham area and formed their own sports recreation club on the grounds. This was before the Football league set up, but several local clubs, who played each other, had to meet to agree the rules of the particular game they were to compete at. This associatsion of clubs most likely sent delegates to the original meetings of the FA. One local club, Blackheath, were so convinced of their own 'take' on how football should be played, they became on of the founder members of the 'Rugby' version. Teams from the Norwood area, including that playing on the Crystal Palace site, prefered rules more familiar to those of the formimg 'Football League' and if there is any link with the original football club and our present lot, this is it. Oh, and the Claret and Blue (Villa colours) liverage, or does anyone really believe the selection of these colours is also just making it up?

adrian b

Landrindod, Wales 30 Jan 14 1.45pm

Quote regal_eagle at 29 Jan 2014 6.59pm

Quote adrian b at 29 Jan 2014 6.35pm
The men who stuck it all together got together to play soccer and asked the football club from where they came from to donate shirts.

Is this 'make up history' day or something?

You're nearly there, but not quite right.

From what I've been told by relations and others who had family in the area at the time before the 'fire', The Crystal Palace was the old Empire Exhibition, moved across from Hyde Park after the Great Exhibition in 1850 (51?). When it was decided to move the whole edifice (Prince Albert's concept and love) to Upper Norwood he took his coach to visit it with Victoria and, as it was so far out of London, they had to stop at Crown Point to ask the way!. The work force and maintenance staff came from the Birminbham area and formed their own sports recreation club on the grounds. This was before the Football league set up, but several local clubs, who played each other, had to meet to agree the rules of the particular game they were to compete at. This associatsion of clubs most likely sent delegates to the original meetings of the FA. One local club, Blackheath, were so convinced of their own 'take' on how football should be played, they became on of the founder members of the 'Rugby' version. Teams from the Norwood area, including that playing on the Crystal Palace site, prefered rules more familiar to those of the formimg 'Football League' and if there is any link with the original football club and our present lot, this is it. Oh, and the Claret and Blue (Villa colours) liverage, or does anyone really believe the selection of these colours is also just making it up?

Palace_denizen filed under " time wasters " 30 Jan 14 9.56pm
Quote Tidd99 at 29 Jan 2014 1.46pm I love the idea of linked with the older crystal palace team I think it would be great for the club but not sure what rules govern this whether we can just suddenly declare there history as ours Edited by Tidd99 (29 Jan 2014 6.24pm) dont ask for permission, ask for forgiveness. So just go and put 1861 on our Shirts/website/coffee cups and let the suits at soho square all go and f....k themselves Laughing at Charlton - Every London Clyub's fourth or fifth most hated team - [Link]

Palace_denizen

filed under " time wasters " 30 Jan 14 9.56pm

Quote Tidd99 at 29 Jan 2014 1.46pm

I love the idea of linked with the older crystal palace team I think it would be great for the club but not sure what rules govern this whether we can just suddenly declare there history as ours

Edited by Tidd99 (29 Jan 2014 6.24pm)

dont ask for permission, ask for forgiveness. So just go and put 1861 on our Shirts/website/coffee cups and let the suits at soho square all go and f....k themselves

Laughing at Charlton - Every London Clyub's fourth or fifth most hated team -
[Link]

jordo Hobart 31 Jan 14 2.31am
Quote Palace_denizen at 30 Jan 2014 9.56pm Quote Tidd99 at 29 Jan 2014 1.46pm I love the idea of linked with the older crystal palace team I think it would be great for the club but not sure what rules govern this whether we can just suddenly declare there history as ours Edited by Tidd99 (29 Jan 2014 6.24pm) dont ask for permission, ask for forgiveness. So just go and put 1861 on our Shirts/website/coffee cups and let the suits at soho square all go and f....k themselves This^^^^^^^^^ [Link]

jordo

Hobart 31 Jan 14 2.31am

Quote Palace_denizen at 30 Jan 2014 9.56pm

Quote Tidd99 at 29 Jan 2014 1.46pm

I love the idea of linked with the older crystal palace team I think it would be great for the club but not sure what rules govern this whether we can just suddenly declare there history as ours

Edited by Tidd99 (29 Jan 2014 6.24pm)

dont ask for permission, ask for forgiveness. So just go and put 1861 on our Shirts/website/coffee cups and let the suits at soho square all go and f....k themselves

This^^^^^^^^^

[Link]

silvertop Portishead 31 Jan 14 9.05am
If we try this every club will either adopt a much earlier date based on village boys in the "area" hoofing a pig bladder about in the mid 1500s. Either that, or we will become a laughing stock as a team attempting to reinvent a lineage [regardless of the strength of evidence]. However - and please correct me on this all those who know more than me - we can claim a history earlier than 1905. Like Queens Park in Glasgow still are, we were effectively the "house team" for the national stadium. For sniffy reasons the FA would not allow us to incorporate as they did not want a league side playing in the national stadium. Thus, while there may have been a discontinuity with the team that played in the 1860s, there was no such break with the team that "formed" in 1905. It had been playing for some time; it only needed the execution of a document and formal recognition from the FA which we eventually got with the help of our sponsors - Aston Villa. What I do not know is the actual date the team formed that was permitted to incorporate. If it was e.g. 1904, then I hardly see the point in raising a fuss. However, I strongly suspect the same team that played from 1905 was also playing some form of league football in the 19th century. Any helpers?

silvertop

Portishead 31 Jan 14 9.05am

If we try this every club will either adopt a much earlier date based on village boys in the "area" hoofing a pig bladder about in the mid 1500s. Either that, or we will become a laughing stock as a team attempting to reinvent a lineage [regardless of the strength of evidence].

However - and please correct me on this all those who know more than me - we can claim a history earlier than 1905. Like Queens Park in Glasgow still are, we were effectively the "house team" for the national stadium. For sniffy reasons the FA would not allow us to incorporate as they did not want a league side playing in the national stadium.

Thus, while there may have been a discontinuity with the team that played in the 1860s, there was no such break with the team that "formed" in 1905. It had been playing for some time; it only needed the execution of a document and formal recognition from the FA which we eventually got with the help of our sponsors - Aston Villa.

What I do not know is the actual date the team formed that was permitted to incorporate. If it was e.g. 1904, then I hardly see the point in raising a fuss. However, I strongly suspect the same team that played from 1905 was also playing some form of league football in the 19th century.

Any helpers?

EagleRider Seasalter, Kent 31 Jan 14 9.22am
Forget being linked with the 1861 team, are we linked with the big dinosaur models in Bromley? We shared the original ground and the Crystal Palace name with them... [Link]

EagleRider

Seasalter, Kent 31 Jan 14 9.22am

Forget being linked with the 1861 team, are we linked with the big dinosaur models in Bromley? We shared the original ground and the Crystal Palace name with them...

[Link]

Palace_denizen filed under " time wasters " 31 Jan 14 9.24am
Quote silvertop at 31 Jan 2014 9.05am If we try this every club will either adopt a much earlier date based on village boys in the "area" hoofing a pig bladder about in the mid 1500s. Either that, or we will become a laughing stock as a team attempting to reinvent a lineage [regardless of the strength of evidence]. And the evidence is all documented in the annals of the FA cup. Surely that's strong enough to start this fight, hardly apocryphal now is it ? and if the FA wanna get thick, we can re-incorporate and stick 2014 on our logo as a protest ? Edited by Palace_denizen (31 Jan 2014 9.27am) Laughing at Charlton - Every London Clyub's fourth or fifth most hated team - [Link]

Palace_denizen

filed under " time wasters " 31 Jan 14 9.24am

Quote silvertop at 31 Jan 2014 9.05am

And the evidence is all documented in the annals of the FA cup. Surely that's strong enough to start this fight, hardly apocryphal now is it ?

and if the FA wanna get thick, we can re-incorporate and stick 2014 on our logo as a protest ?

Edited by Palace_denizen (31 Jan 2014 9.27am)

Laughing at Charlton - Every London Clyub's fourth or fifth most hated team -
[Link]

Phil O'Sophical 12 Dec 18 11.50am
Bumping this thread back as a new book has recently been published, called Palace At The Palace, which, for the first time, covers the entire history of the Crystal Palace Company, the company which owned and managed our spiritual home, the Crystal Palace at Sydenham. It takes a forensic look at its relationship with the Crystal Palace football club, dispelling a number of myths. Like a number of major soccer teams today, e.g. Spurs, Derby and the two Sheffields, the amateur Crystal Palace developed out of a cricket club, in our case the Crystal Palace Cricket Club, which played at Sydenham. The book reveals that the members of the Crystal Palace football club of 1861 had school and business links to the other F.A. Founding Fathers and a much more important and central role in the founding of the Football Association and the launch of soccer than has previously been recognised. It also forensically examines how and why the professional Crystal Palace club was founded in 1905, dispelling a number of widely held myths and adding a lot of new verifiable information about its foundation. Looked at from the perspective of the Crystal Palace Company there are now very good reasons why the 1861 amateur Palace team can be said to be connected to today’s club, especially when compared with the way other clubs claim their histories. It’s a unique history and, based on the book’s research, Palace would be well within its rights to claim to be the oldest professional football league club in the world. The crowd is outstanding, and especially with the penalty after 44 minutes it was clear when we came out after half-time the welcome would be pretty loud and not too friendly. Crystal Palace wanted to strike back, so that was all clear. This is a wonderful place to play football - Jurgen Klopp

Phil O'Sophical

12 Dec 18 11.50am

Bumping this thread back as a new book has recently been published, called Palace At The Palace, which, for the first time, covers the entire history of the Crystal Palace Company, the company which owned and managed our spiritual home, the Crystal Palace at Sydenham.

It takes a forensic look at its relationship with the Crystal Palace football club, dispelling a number of myths.

Like a number of major soccer teams today, e.g. Spurs, Derby and the two Sheffields, the amateur Crystal Palace developed out of a cricket club, in our case the Crystal Palace Cricket Club, which played at Sydenham.

The book reveals that the members of the Crystal Palace football club of 1861 had school and business links to the other F.A. Founding Fathers and a much more important and central role in the founding of the Football Association and the launch of soccer than has previously been recognised.

It also forensically examines how and why the professional Crystal Palace club was founded in 1905, dispelling a number of widely held myths and adding a lot of new verifiable information about its foundation.

Looked at from the perspective of the Crystal Palace Company there are now very good reasons why the 1861 amateur Palace team can be said to be connected to today’s club, especially when compared with the way other clubs claim their histories. It’s a unique history and, based on the book’s research, Palace would be well within its rights to claim to be the oldest professional football league club in the world.

The crowd is outstanding, and especially with the penalty after 44 minutes it was clear when we came out after half-time the welcome would be pretty loud and not too friendly. Crystal Palace wanted to strike back, so that was all clear. This is a wonderful place to play football - Jurgen Klopp

topcat Holmesdale / Surbiton 12 Dec 18 12.04pm
Amazon [Link] It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.

topcat

Holmesdale / Surbiton 12 Dec 18 12.04pm

Amazon [Link]

It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.

Dean_CPFC South london 12 Dec 18 1.50pm
I'm all for this, both times we were set up by the Crystal Palace Company. Our current club is the same as the previous one that ran from 1861 it was just resurrected after some time out. It's the same club

Dean_CPFC

South london 12 Dec 18 1.50pm

I'm all for this, both times we were set up by the Crystal Palace Company. Our current club is the same as the previous one that ran from 1861 it was just resurrected after some time out. It's the same club

bexleydave Barnehurst 12 Dec 18 4.44pm
[quote=Phil O'Sophical;3389668] Bumping this thread back as a new book has recently been published, called Palace At The Palace, which, for the first time, covers the entire history of the Crystal Palace Company, the company which owned and managed our spiritual home, the Crystal Palace at Sydenham. It takes a forensic look at its relationship with the Crystal Palace football club, dispelling a number of myths. Like a number of major soccer teams today, e.g. Spurs, Derby and the two Sheffields, the amateur Crystal Palace developed out of a cricket club, in our case the Crystal Palace Cricket Club, which played at Sydenham. The book reveals that the members of the Crystal Palace football club of 1861 had school and business links to the other F.A. Founding Fathers and a much more important and central role in the founding of the Football Association and the launch of soccer than has previously been recognised. It also forensically examines how and why the professional Crystal Palace club was founded in 1905, dispelling a number of widely held myths and adding a lot of new verifiable information about its foundation. Looked at from the perspective of the Crystal Palace Company there are now very good reasons why the 1861 amateur Palace team can be said to be connected to today’s club, especially when compared with the way other clubs claim their histories. It’s a unique history and, based on the book’s research, Palace would be well within its rights to claim to be the oldest professional football league club in the world. We're enough of a laughing stock already without attempting to massage the date of the founding of the club. How much more stupid do you think we shoud try and make ourselves look? Bexley Dave Can you hear the Brighton sing? I can't hear a ******* thing! "The most arrogant, obnoxious bunch of deluded little sun tanned, loafer wearing mummy's boys I've ever had the misfortune of having to listen to" (Burnley forum)

bexleydave

Barnehurst 12 Dec 18 4.44pm

[quote=Phil O'Sophical;3389668]

It takes a forensic look at its relationship with the Crystal Palace football club, dispelling a number of myths.

We're enough of a laughing stock already without attempting to massage the date of the founding of the club. How much more stupid do you think we shoud try and make ourselves look?

Bexley Dave

Can you hear the Brighton sing? I can't hear a ******* thing!

"The most arrogant, obnoxious bunch of deluded little sun tanned, loafer wearing mummy's boys I've ever had the misfortune of having to listen to" (Burnley forum)

ASCPFC Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 12 Dec 18 5.08pm
Being an older club would be a good talking point but, unfortunately, would not make us any bigger or better. I can't help but think of Queen's Park in Scotland. There were other really old clubs that have not exactly maintained a high profile; off the top of my head Preston. I would prefer to be a better club rather than an older one. Red and Blue Army!

ASCPFC

Pro-Cathedral/caravan park 12 Dec 18 5.08pm

Being an older club would be a good talking point but, unfortunately, would not make us any bigger or better.
I can't help but think of Queen's Park in Scotland. There were other really old clubs that have not exactly maintained a high profile; off the top of my head Preston.
I would prefer to be a better club rather than an older one.

Red and Blue Army!

Phil O'Sophical 19 Dec 18 7.48am
Originally posted by Dean_CPFC I'm all for this, both times we were set up by the Crystal Palace Company. Our current club is the same as the previous one that ran from 1861 it was just resurrected after some time out. It's the same club And the club seem perfectly happy to sell the book and the story. [Link] The crowd is outstanding, and especially with the penalty after 44 minutes it was clear when we came out after half-time the welcome would be pretty loud and not too friendly. Crystal Palace wanted to strike back, so that was all clear. This is a wonderful place to play football - Jurgen Klopp

Phil O'Sophical

19 Dec 18 7.48am

Originally posted by Dean_CPFC

And the club seem perfectly happy to sell the book and the story.

[Link]

YT Oxford 19 Dec 18 8.18am
[quote=Phil O'Sophical;3392035] And the club seem perfectly happy to sell the book and the story. [Link] BTW I love your username, Phil. When it comes to football, are you a 'homer'? [Note to shcolars: yes, I'm aware that Homer was a poet, but there are some arguments that his works were philosophical] Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)

Oxford 19 Dec 18 8.18am

[quote=Phil O'Sophical;3392035]

And the club seem perfectly happy to sell the book and the story.

[Link]

BTW I love your username, Phil. When it comes to football, are you a 'homer'?

[Note to shcolars: yes, I'm aware that Homer was a poet, but there are some arguments that his works were philosophical]

Palace since 19 August 1972. Palace 1 (Tony Taylor) Liverpool 1 (Emlyn Hughes)

Lombardinho London 19 Dec 18 12.41pm
[quote=Phil O'Sophical;3389668] Bumping this thread back as a new book has recently been published, called Palace At The Palace, which, for the first time, covers the entire history of the Crystal Palace Company, the company which owned and managed our spiritual home, the Crystal Palace at Sydenham. It takes a forensic look at its relationship with the Crystal Palace football club, dispelling a number of myths. Like a number of major soccer teams today, e.g. Spurs, Derby and the two Sheffields, the amateur Crystal Palace developed out of a cricket club, in our case the Crystal Palace Cricket Club, which played at Sydenham. The book reveals that the members of the Crystal Palace football club of 1861 had school and business links to the other F.A. Founding Fathers and a much more important and central role in the founding of the Football Association and the launch of soccer than has previously been recognised. It also forensically examines how and why the professional Crystal Palace club was founded in 1905, dispelling a number of widely held myths and adding a lot of new verifiable information about its foundation. Looked at from the perspective of the Crystal Palace Company there are now very good reasons why the 1861 amateur Palace team can be said to be connected to today’s club, especially when compared with the way other clubs claim their histories. It’s a unique history and, based on the book’s research, Palace would be well within its rights to claim to be the oldest professional football league club in the world. Enjoying this thread. The first question people will ask is... If you're the oldest club in the world, how come you had to borrow Villa's shirts?

Lombardinho

London 19 Dec 18 12.41pm

[quote=Phil O'Sophical;3389668]

It takes a forensic look at its relationship with the Crystal Palace football club, dispelling a number of myths.

Enjoying this thread.
The first question people will ask is...
If you're the oldest club in the world, how come you had to borrow Villa's shirts?

Badger11 Beckenham 19 Dec 18 12.53pm
Originally posted by Lombardinho Enjoying this thread. The first question people will ask is... If you're the oldest club in the world, how come you had to borrow Villa's shirts? Good question One more point

Badger11

Beckenham 19 Dec 18 12.53pm

Originally posted by Lombardinho

Enjoying this thread.
The first question people will ask is...
If you're the oldest club in the world, how come you had to borrow Villa's shirts?

Good question

One more point

johnmcormick8 Brundish 19 Dec 18 1.46pm
well if use 1861 can we drop the egale Barcelona thing and go back to being 'The Glaziers'

johnmcormick8

Brundish 19 Dec 18 1.46pm

well if use 1861 can we drop the egale Barcelona thing and go back to being 'The Glaziers'

Sansbup Norfolk 19 Dec 18 5.38pm
Originally posted by Lombardinho Enjoying this thread. The first question people will ask is... If you're the oldest club in the world, how come you had to borrow Villa's shirts? Also, when there was only one club, who did they play against? Great thread by the way, excellent cachet in being the world's oldest club!

Sansbup

Norfolk 19 Dec 18 5.38pm

Originally posted by Lombardinho

Enjoying this thread.
The first question people will ask is...
If you're the oldest club in the world, how come you had to borrow Villa's shirts?

Also, when there was only one club, who did they play against?

Great thread by the way, excellent cachet in being the world's oldest club!

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