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August 25 2019 2.20pm

Can we adopt our 1861 date of birth ?

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View Phil O'Sophical's Profile Phil O'Sophical Flag 20 Dec 18 7.27pm Send a Private Message to Phil O'Sophical Add Phil O'Sophical as a friend

Originally posted by bexleydave

Those involved in the formation of this club did not attempt to claim any link to the former club of the same name, and that was just 29 years after the other club became defunct, when the history would have been a lot clearer.
Edited by bexleydave (20 Dec 2018 7.45am)

The professional club did recognise its earlier links with the amateur club and didn't suggest they were a separate club.

In its first handbook in 1906, recalling its past amateur history, the professional club said 'The Crystal Palace Football Team have supplied three internationals, but it occurred in the years 1873 and 1876. In the former year A Morton was included in the international between England and Scotland, and in 1876 A.H. Savage and C.E. Smith represented the old country against Scotland.'

The handbook just refers to the Crystal Palace Football Team, i.e. the amateur and professional sides were both the 'Crystal Palace Football Team', the only difference being that one was amateur and one was professional.


Edited by Phil O'Sophical (20 Dec 2018 7.35pm)

 


The crowd is outstanding, and especially with the penalty after 44 minutes it was clear when we came out after half-time the welcome would be pretty loud and not too friendly. Crystal Palace wanted to strike back, so that was all clear. This is a wonderful place to play football - Jurgen Klopp

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View glaziermart's Profile glaziermart Flag 15 Jul 19 10.40pm Send a Private Message to glaziermart Add glaziermart as a friend

I've not read the Peter Manning book yet, but speaking to Palace fans that have, they are convinced we should be the oldest football club in the world! they said Peter Manning has dissected everything to produce compelling evidence. Does anyone know Peter? does he ever post on here and has anyone tried to contact the club or Steve Parish to get the Football League or Premier League to look at this book. A number of clubs have had their founding dates changed over the years with new evidence (Wrexham and Stoke spring to mind), and from what i've heard the evidence in this book is even more tangible

 

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View bexleydave's Profile bexleydave Flag Barnehurst 16 Jul 19 6.12am Send a Private Message to bexleydave Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add bexleydave as a friend

Originally posted by glaziermart

I've not read the Peter Manning book yet, but speaking to Palace fans that have, they are convinced we should be the oldest football club in the world! they said Peter Manning has dissected everything to produce compelling evidence. Does anyone know Peter? does he ever post on here and has anyone tried to contact the club or Steve Parish to get the Football League or Premier League to look at this book. A number of clubs have had their founding dates changed over the years with new evidence (Wrexham and Stoke spring to mind), and from what i've heard the evidence in this book is even more tangible


And there are plenty in the world of football that are equally convinced that we are a franchise that started in 2010. To try and claim an alternative history, that has a massive disconnect in it, would make us look like the most deluded football club in the known universe and, whatever his faults, Parish would never be stupid enough to try to rewrite history. Even if he was, the FA would never, quite rightly, accept it. It's just wishful thinking from cloud cuckoo land; let's concentrate on our longest stay in the PL shall we?

 


Bexley Dave

Can you hear the Brighton sing? I can't hear a ******* thing!

"The most arrogant, obnoxious bunch of deluded little sun tanned, loafer wearing mummy's boys I've ever had the misfortune of having to listen to" (Burnley forum)

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View grumpymort's Profile grumpymort Flag 16 Jul 19 8.35am Send a Private Message to grumpymort Add grumpymort as a friend

Not the same club not sure how people can even link the two together.

This was not like many other clubs a name/brand change it was a separate club which setup.

If it had been linked 100% they would be using that because it adds more history to the club being a founder which could in some ways add lot of value.

but then history can be written how you want based on who writes it (this is the case with mostly all history) so could add in links without evidence i suppose who would fight it?

Edited by grumpymort (16 Jul 2019 8.37am)

 

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View glaziermart's Profile glaziermart Flag 16 Jul 19 8.55am Send a Private Message to glaziermart Add glaziermart as a friend

Originally posted by grumpymort

Not the same club not sure how people can even link the two together.

This was not like many other clubs a name/brand change it was a separate club which setup.

If it had been linked 100% they would be using that because it adds more history to the club being a founder which could in some ways add lot of value.

but then history can be written how you want based on who writes it (this is the case with mostly all history) so could add in links without evidence i suppose who would fight it?

Edited by grumpymort (16 Jul 2019 8.37am)


How can you say its not the same club??? they are both linked to the Crystal Palace company, were founded at the exhibition palace, played inside the grounds etc. Ok so maybe we can never 100% prove a link, as you said everyone can argue either way, but i would say its 70/30 in favour of the clubs being linked in some way and its definitely worth the Football League or whoever looking at the evidence

 

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View bexleydave's Profile bexleydave Flag Barnehurst 16 Jul 19 9.56am Send a Private Message to bexleydave Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add bexleydave as a friend

Originally posted by glaziermart

How can you say its not the same club??? they are both linked to the Crystal Palace company, were founded at the exhibition palace, played inside the grounds etc. Ok so maybe we can never 100% prove a link, as you said everyone can argue either way, but i would say its 70/30 in favour of the clubs being linked in some way and its definitely worth the Football League or whoever looking at the evidence


Putting a post in bold doesn't make it any more erudite or convincing.

The current club was started in 1905 and the founders did not try to claim an earlier date of foundation. We've accepted 1905 for 114 years, put it on our badge and celebrated a centenary in 2005. Nothing new has come to light in the last 114 years that wasn't known at the time, just some bloke expressing an opinion in a book, copies of which he hopes to sell, and we all know about opinions don't we?

It's clearly tickled your fancy, but it isn't going to happen, and if we tried to raise this with whoever, in a hopeless attempt to claim a history we don't have, we'll look an even bigger bunch of plonkers than many think we already are. As I've already said, let's concentrate on the hear and now.

 


Bexley Dave

Can you hear the Brighton sing? I can't hear a ******* thing!

"The most arrogant, obnoxious bunch of deluded little sun tanned, loafer wearing mummy's boys I've ever had the misfortune of having to listen to" (Burnley forum)

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View Mr Palaceman's Profile Mr Palaceman Flag 16 Jul 19 11.01am Send a Private Message to Mr Palaceman Add Mr Palaceman as a friend

5 pages and no one has even mentioned our very own Ian king. Palace Historian. He compiled "Crystal Palace the Complete Record". Been out for years and was sold in the club shop at one time.

Explains all about the other Crystal Palaces, there have actually been Four, including us. Crystal Palace (1861), first fixture was a 1-0 loss to Forest FC and then a break. The second Crystal Palace was the one that borrowed the Aston Villa Claret and blue shirts and was championed by the then Aston Villa chairman, William McGregor, who was known as the father of the football league. He was patron of the club. Then another break. Then in 1883, we see the emergence of The mighty "Crystal Palace Rovers", another incarnation, set up by another group, then a break until 1904 when our club was formed and took the name of the area, as the previous clubs did.

I recommend anyone who doesn't know the club's history to read it. It has details of every fixture our club has played and who scored the goals, hence the title, the Complete Record.

There is also another Palace book with every known newspaper report about Palace from the Historic Newspaper Archive. First entry, The Daily Mirror, January 14th 1907.The headline Read, "Glorious Win for Crystal Palace". We beat Newcastle, at theirs, in the F.A. Cup 1st round, after having knocked them out in the previous two seasons in the same round. Newcastle were unbeaten that season, so it was a bit of a giant killing.

That book is called, "Crystal Palace, A History from 1907".

Both books should still be available...

 


"You can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead"

Stan Laurel

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View est1905's Profile est1905 Flag 18 Jul 19 5.01pm Send a Private Message to est1905 Add est1905 as a friend

Originally posted by Palace_denizen

now that the dust has settled on our centenary, there is ample evidence that we existed and thrived from 1861 to 1876 , including participating in some of the first FA cups.

our name is in the annals of FA cup history going way way back prior to 1905. Does anybody think another England club has a better claim to the Crystal Palace name than us ?

Added to the hosting of the FA cup at our home ground, why do we not honour our tradition and print 1861 on all our merchandise ? It will give these 'johnny come lately' teams with lots of money something to think about.

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Edited by Palace_denizen (29 Jan 2014 12.11pm)

The Crystal Palace you are talking about were a bunch of full time glazers that worked at the Crystal Palace and started up a team (simoilar to the South London soldiers that started a team at the Woolwich Arsenal. Difference is The Woolwich Arsenal dropped the 'Woolwich', moved to North London, pissed of Tottenham Hotspur who were already there and established themselves as a club in their own right.
The Crystal Palace team disbanded when they found they had little help/financial support plus at the time the FA cup final was played at Crystal Palace and the FA felt this gave Crystal Palace an unfair advantage in the competition.
They were long gone for twenty years before the secretary of Aston Villa decided to gather some investors to start CPFC (hence the reason why we started life in Claret and Blue, believe it or not Palace used to borrow Villas shirts to play in on a Sunday after Villa had used them on a Saturday. The agreemant was we had to have them washed and ironed and sent back up on the train to Birmingham first thing Monday morning)
The two clubs are completely different. One was amature, the other professional. One was attatched to a workplace, the other was a professional club that applied for election to the football league in 1905. Same day as Chelsea as it happened. They got elected in, we didn't. I wonder why that was? Chelsea had a member on the panel. We didn't.

 

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View glaziermart's Profile glaziermart Flag 19 Jul 19 10.38am Send a Private Message to glaziermart Add glaziermart as a friend

Originally posted by est1905

The Crystal Palace you are talking about were a bunch of full time glazers that worked at the Crystal Palace and started up a team (simoilar to the South London soldiers that started a team at the Woolwich Arsenal. Difference is The Woolwich Arsenal dropped the 'Woolwich', moved to North London, pissed of Tottenham Hotspur who were already there and established themselves as a club in their own right.
The Crystal Palace team disbanded when they found they had little help/financial support plus at the time the FA cup final was played at Crystal Palace and the FA felt this gave Crystal Palace an unfair advantage in the competition.
They were long gone for twenty years before the secretary of Aston Villa decided to gather some investors to start CPFC (hence the reason why we started life in Claret and Blue, believe it or not Palace used to borrow Villas shirts to play in on a Sunday after Villa had used them on a Saturday. The agreemant was we had to have them washed and ironed and sent back up on the train to Birmingham first thing Monday morning)
The two clubs are completely different. One was amature, the other professional. One was attatched to a workplace, the other was a professional club that applied for election to the football league in 1905. Same day as Chelsea as it happened. They got elected in, we didn't. I wonder why that was? Chelsea had a member on the panel. We didn't.

Totally incorrect!! the players were not part time glaziers, they were businessman who participated in sport, some were already footballers, and it was the Crystal Palace company that formed the team from this. If you actually read Peter Manning's book, then you would know this. Unfortunately, your account is what has been inaccurately peddled for years, that these players were groundworkers, glaziers, bin men!!! you name it, which is why the assumption has been taken, without any previous research that the two clubs are separate. But there is a very plausible link which Peter has gone to great pains to research and produce the facts, maybe if you read his book you might come to a different conclusion

 

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View glaziermart's Profile glaziermart Flag 19 Jul 19 10.41am Send a Private Message to glaziermart Add glaziermart as a friend

Also the amateur team disbanded in 1876, long before the cup finals were held (they started in 1895) so their was no unfair advantage!! so again your facts are inaccurate

 

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View Kant's Profile Kant Flag exeter 19 Jul 19 4.21pm Send a Private Message to Kant Add Kant as a friend

Originally posted by bexleydave


And there are plenty in the world of football that are equally convinced that we are a franchise that started in 2010. To try and claim an alternative history, that has a massive disconnect in it, would make us look like the most deluded football club in the known universe and, whatever his faults, Parish would never be stupid enough to try to rewrite history. Even if he was, the FA would never, quite rightly, accept it. It's just wishful thinking from cloud cuckoo land; let's concentrate on our longest stay in the PL shall we?

If Liverpool could make such a claim do you think they would be worried about what people might think? You’d never hear the last of it.

 

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Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards View est1905's Profile est1905 Flag 19 Jul 19 6.00pm Send a Private Message to est1905 Add est1905 as a friend

Originally posted by glaziermart

Totally incorrect!! the players were not part time glaziers, they were businessman who participated in sport, some were already footballers, and it was the Crystal Palace company that formed the team from this. If you actually read Peter Manning's book, then you would know this. Unfortunately, your account is what has been inaccurately peddled for years, that these players were groundworkers, glaziers, bin men!!! you name it, which is why the assumption has been taken, without any previous research that the two clubs are separate. But there is a very plausible link which Peter has gone to great pains to research and produce the facts, maybe if you read his book you might come to a different conclusion

Pipe down you self important prat.
If YOU bothered to ACTUAlly read that (Says with equally smug face) you'd realise what a complete know it all knob you are.

As it happens 'Peter' isn't the only person who can write a book. The info I got from the one I read was actually provided by someone that was alive at the time and there. No need for research like your idol Peter.
Dick

 

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