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June 1 2024 5.20am

The Election Thread

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 04 Jan 20 10.50am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by robdave2k

Now I appreciate you operate on a completely different intellectual level to the rest of us mere mortals, but....

I don't believe that to be true at all and I fully realise that my views aren't shared by many, if any, here. I just view and value things differently and have long had the courage of my convictions when faced with overwhelming opposition. I learned that when I was a schoolboy and have ultimately been proved right many times.


You believe in Parliament and MP’s making a decision - fair enough. However what the referendum did was show that

A. There was enough of a level of support that it shouldn’t be ignored.

Obviously but completely beside the point. The argument is not whether people supported it or not. It is why they did and whether they had sufficient information to be able to reach an informed decision. It is whether highly complex and technical issues such as this, involving not just matters of national pride but economic, social and security issues fundamental to the futures not just of ourselves but of the coming generations, ought to be decided by a plebiscite.

B. Removed political boundaries. Everyone had the right to vote and know their vote counted.

True but not germane to the point above.

If the MP’s decide everything, then all bar about 60 constituencies have no realistic say in what happens.

Untrue. MPs represent ALL of their constituents and not just those who vote for them. So long as they are given a free vote and allowed to vote according to their consciences having heard all the arguments then an informed decision will be taken.

 


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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 04 Jan 20 10.52am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

There is a reason we rarely hold referenda.

One person one vote does not reflect the relative importance to individuals of the vote. In this case people with little to gain voted - marginally- against the interests of those with a huge amount to lose.

A simple majority does not indicate the outcome was correct.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 04 Jan 20 10.57am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Uphill

Something the remainers just can't accept. They feel their views should prevail over the democratic decision.
So goodbye to Gina Miller, John Bercow and their ilk.
Try to accept that it is over.

John Bercow was not involved in any way, other than in trying to ensure that Parliament and not the executive took the final decisions.

I anticipate that Gina Miller, as she has always done, will be working quietly away from the spotlight, helping to put together the group that will find a consensus and then provide an effective long term strategy to reverse the current stupidity.

We need an effective opposition as never before and right now that has to be outside of Parliament given the determination of the Labour Party to commit suicide.

 


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View chris123's Profile chris123 Flag hove actually 04 Jan 20 11.05am Send a Private Message to chris123 Add chris123 as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

There is a reason we rarely hold referenda.

One person one vote does not reflect the relative importance to individuals of the vote. In this case people with little to gain voted - marginally- against the interests of those with a huge amount to lose.

A simple majority does not indicate the outcome was correct.

It's democracy - you lost.

 

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View Stirlingsays's Profile Stirlingsays Flag 04 Jan 20 11.08am Send a Private Message to Stirlingsays Holmesdale Online Elite Member Add Stirlingsays as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

There is a reason we rarely hold referenda.

One person one vote does not reflect the relative importance to individuals of the vote. In this case people with little to gain voted - marginally- against the interests of those with a huge amount to lose.

A simple majority does not indicate the outcome was correct.

Since 1973 there have been eleven referendums held in the UK.

While I'd agree that a 52/48 vote is quite close it is still clear. Also if this vote had gone the other way I very much doubt you would be making this point.

I'd agree that the outcome of a political vote isn't an indication of correctness.....There is no such thing outside of mathematics and logic. It will be favourable to some and not for others. Most things come down to worldview.

Edited by Stirlingsays (04 Jan 2020 11.10am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 04 Jan 20 11.11am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Midlands Eagle

You're a bit old to think about emigrating but I'm sure that you will find a country that suits your thinking if you look hard enough and in the meantime the rest of us will enjoy living in a country where the government will carry out the will of the majority of the people

I have every bit as much right to argue for my beliefs in my own country as you or any other citizen.

In our country it is a total fallacy to believe that that "the government will carry out the will of the majority of the people" unless and until we introduce PR. With FPTP it's almost always a minority.

My argument against referendums on issues like Brexit have nothing to do with that anyway. It is that it is impossible to truly discover the will of the people on such complex and technical issues. We have elected our representatives to spend time researching, consulting and debating these things. We need to leave the decision making to them and avoid manipulation by malign influences.

 


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View Eaglecoops's Profile Eaglecoops Flag CR3 04 Jan 20 11.22am Send a Private Message to Eaglecoops Add Eaglecoops as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

There is a reason we rarely hold referenda.

because you might not get the result you wanted perhaps?

One person one vote does not reflect the relative importance to individuals of the vote. In this case people with little to gain voted - marginally- against the interests of those with a huge amount to lose.

wow and I thought all votes were equal, but apparently not

A simple majority does not indicate the outcome was correct.

I think you are missing the point that the outcome was not correct to the minority, but was to the majority

Also could you please enlighten us with the huge amount you have personally lost? Money, Job?

 

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View Mapletree's Profile Mapletree Flag Croydon 04 Jan 20 11.28am Send a Private Message to Mapletree Add Mapletree as a friend

Originally posted by Eaglecoops

I think you are missing the point that the outcome was not correct to the minority, but was to the majority

Also could you please enlighten us with the huge amount you have personally lost? Money, Job?

Since you ask, yes. Both. Immediately after the Brexit vote my job with a US company was moved to Ireland.

My concerns, however, relate more to the opportunities for my children who to date have benefited from the EU to a significant degree.

 

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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 04 Jan 20 11.41am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Eaglecoops

It might be a failure of your democracy but certainly not mine and so it appears the majority of the Country.

I’m sorry but I also don’t get your trust in our politicians to do the right thing. They don’t have infinite wisdom, in fact some would and do fail miserably outside their political lives so why should they have more say than the people they represent? By what you are saying, if an entire constituency wanted black doors but their politician wanted white doors, then white doors would prevail. That cannot be right.

Any MP who did anything quite that stupid would not survive for long. However taking unpopular decisions that they consider in their constituents best interests need to be explained. People tend to admire people of principle.

As for calm heads, can you honestly say that the way politicians go about their business is in any way calm? I have never seen anything so disgraceful as the antics of them in the Commons. If that was the boardroom of a top 100 company, the chairman would throw the lot of them out. There is no rational debate, just party posturing. They act like spoilt children.

That's just the froth. It's all pantomime. Nevertheless, it can expose hypocrisy and test the strength of arguments. The real work though is done in committee and behind the scenes.

Our political system is pretty much broken which has been highlighted by recent events and as for trusting our politicians I wouldn’t let one walk my dog let alone rule the country, but unfortunately that is our system and for the time being we are stuck with it.

It's certainly under threat from the attempts to neuter MPs and treat them as lobby sheep. Who we send to Parliament as our representatives is OUR responsibility. Don't like yours? Do something about it! Parliament in the last 6 months actually showed it has some integrity even though in the end Corbyn's weakness failed to deliver the knockout blow that was available.

I think we should have a referendum on changing our political system.

I cannot think of anything more likely to produce a disaster.


 


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View Wisbech Eagle's Profile Wisbech Eagle Flag Truro Cornwall 04 Jan 20 11.44am Send a Private Message to Wisbech Eagle Add Wisbech Eagle as a friend

Originally posted by Badger11

And he was so right oh wait no he wasn't the club is in it's most successful period ever. As for Jordan well to borrow a certain Chelsea managers phrase "He's an expert in failure".

He was talking about his own desire to own the club and the amount of money he lost in doing so.

Brexit is a direct parallel.

 


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View Eaglecoops's Profile Eaglecoops Flag CR3 04 Jan 20 11.46am Send a Private Message to Eaglecoops Add Eaglecoops as a friend

Originally posted by Mapletree

Since you ask, yes. Both. Immediately after the Brexit vote my job with a US company was moved to Ireland.

My concerns, however, relate more to the opportunities for my children who to date have benefited from the EU to a significant degree.

I’m sorry to hear that. It does explain your position however.

 

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View Eaglecoops's Profile Eaglecoops Flag CR3 04 Jan 20 11.53am Send a Private Message to Eaglecoops Add Eaglecoops as a friend

Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle

I think we should have a referendum on changing our political system.

I cannot think of anything more likely to produce a disaster.

This point was made in jest. However I do think we need a different political system as the current one does not appear to have the confidence of the people.

 

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