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Taking the knee (LOCKED)
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 Rudi Hedman  Caterham 08 Dec 20 11.47am |
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Originally posted by DanH
I love how I'm the child yet you all have this weird obsession and rivalry with another Palace fans' message board. No obsession babe. Just an observation I wouldn’t trust any of them that post their garbage and people they claim to support should be wary too.
COYP |
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 08 Dec 20 11.49am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I didn't "avoid" the "proud boy" reference. I ignored it as irrelevant because it is. This is what you wrote:- "Can you imagine what these people would say if other groups started to adopt the gestures of say....the proud boys and then claimed the same thing" It's irrelevant because its demonstrably and unarguably untrue. Why? Because as has been repeatedly proven in this thread those who are "taking the knee" are NOT adopting the gesture of the political movement which calls itself BLM. It's not just me, and other posters here saying so. It's the people doing it, the players, their employers and their association. So that is a fact. This isn't Trumpland, even if you want it to be, where "alternative facts" are regarded as the truth in some quarters. If anyone disagreed with the gesture I am certain they would not, and indeed could not, be forced to comply. They might well cause an upset in the dressing room but that's another matter which, if they feel strongly enough about they will overcome. Any player in the top flight taking a stand, sorry, would be destroyed within minutes of the match. You of course know this. Edited by Rudi Hedman (08 Dec 2020 11.56am)
COYP |
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 08 Dec 20 11.56am |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Only in minds like yours who want to see genuine protests ruined because they don't like them. The rest of us can easily discern the difference. Especially when it's this obvious. Protesting about a man killed in another country. Vandalising proud national monuments and attacking and running the police all over the place. Yes, very genuine. Later we got to see the two tier policing with the lockdown protests. I’ve already said I think things like custodial sentences and history in the school curriculum should probably change. But you accuse me of wanting to ruin protests. Unlike you I’d prefer to see an actual change rather than anarchy or physical gestures that have other meanings which we all saw in central London on riot days to confirm it all to begin with.
COYP |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Dec 20 12.05pm |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
The BBS is something to behold. Apart from 2-3 posters that posted this morning, they’re completely the opposite and would hold DanH aloft as some child or fluffy toy mascot. One in particular excused all of the incidents and actions in the protests and riots. Absolutely all of it. It was completely fine with him. But booing the kneeling linked to BLM is completely unacceptable. What they also do is let out in their posts their politics and the politics they’ve been influenced, if you didn’t already know, but this apparently isn’t political at all. Are most clubs split like this or they a unique type of spaffwomble? Actually Stirling posted the country’s polled opinion on taking the knee split by working class and middle class I think it was. I don't use the BBS but I'll take your word for it. Maybe, just maybe, they are taking the majority view among our fans. Have you ever considered that? That perhaps you are isolated and wrong? Why you persist in seeking to associate the players "taking the knee" with BLM politics when everyone involved with it has made it clear beyond the slightest doubt that isn't so, beats me. You might find it hard to believe but some people actually tell the truth and do things because they care about them and think they can make a difference. Or do you think Marcus Rashford must have political motivations behind his actions? That some think it has outlived its usefulness and ought to be retired is fine too, just as if anyone didn't wish to participate in the first place. People can make up their own minds.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Dec 20 12.13pm |
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Originally posted by Badger11
I don't know anyone who thinks racism is a good idea. I was over the moon that we scored 5 against WBA and that our greatest ever player is black doesn't bother me in the slightest. Booing BLM and the corporate hypocrisy of the PL and SKY and the BBC is not racist in my opinion. However we cannot know the motives for each person who booed and anyone who claims to know is a liar. Or as Elizabeth I said. "I would not open windows into men's souls." Players making a gesture in support of those who have suffered racism is not a political statement. Booing them when they do so, whilst disrespectful and thoroughly disagreeable, is not necessarily racist. It could simply be disrespectful. However, when it happens at a ground which has an unfortunate history of racist abuse it is hardly surprising that criticism of this kind follows it. When progress on racism has been made at the very least this was the wrong way to attract headlines to your club.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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 Hrolf The Ganger 08 Dec 20 12.19pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I don't use the BBS but I'll take your word for it. Maybe, just maybe, they are taking the majority view among our fans. Have you ever considered that? That perhaps you are isolated and wrong? Why you persist in seeking to associate the players "taking the knee" with BLM politics when everyone involved with it has made it clear beyond the slightest doubt that isn't so, beats me. You might find it hard to believe but some people actually tell the truth and do things because they care about them and think they can make a difference. Or do you think Marcus Rashford must have political motivations behind his actions? That some think it has outlived its usefulness and ought to be retired is fine too, just as if anyone didn't wish to participate in the first place. People can make up their own minds. For Christ sake Wisbech. They are clearly associated and if you want to disassociate from it then change the bloody slogan. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (08 Dec 2020 12.20pm)
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 08 Dec 20 12.21pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I don't use the BBS but I'll take your word for it. Maybe, just maybe, they are taking the majority view among our fans. Have you ever considered that? That perhaps you are isolated and wrong? Why you persist in seeking to associate the players "taking the knee" with BLM politics when everyone involved with it has made it clear beyond the slightest doubt that isn't so, beats me. You might find it hard to believe but some people actually tell the truth and do things because they care about them and think they can make a difference. Or do you think Marcus Rashford must have political motivations behind his actions? That some think it has outlived its usefulness and ought to be retired is fine too, just as if anyone didn't wish to participate in the first place. People can make up their own minds. At least you’ve reversed from me wanting to ruin a protest. Jesus, what a stupid thing to say anyway. Did you see the poll? You can be sure as time goes on that more people would prefer the knee to go. Your Marcus Rashford attempt is a bad one seeing as he took cabinet ministers on directly with a clear issue that had a clear solution. (I think the error was expecting a tory government to promise to continue it over Easter 6 months ahead, but that’s another debate). The knee has lost its effect and is becoming more divisive. Black power salutes with it didn’t help its cause either. I’m genuinely hopeful that 2 teams locked in arms might be more effective than players with a 10m radius space around them getting on one knee for a few seconds and maybe a more controversial fist in the air. It’s the sort of thing that happens at schoolboy football but gets lost in teenage years. Somehow competitiveness means respect has to go out of the window, especially at professional level. That doesn’t have to be a given, but try telling that to some foreign international teams. Try Argentinia to begin with.
COYP |
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 08 Dec 20 12.24pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Players making a gesture in support of those who have suffered racism is not a political statement. Booing them when they do so, whilst disrespectful and thoroughly disagreeable, is not necessarily racist. It could simply be disrespectful. However, when it happens at a ground which has an unfortunate history of racist abuse it is hardly surprising that criticism of this kind follows it. When progress on racism has been made at the very least this was the wrong way to attract headlines to your club. It happened at West Ham as well. The tv sound was muted. It also happened at Colchester, Brentford and Reading. It’s proven to be divisive.
COYP |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Dec 20 12.25pm |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
Any player in the top flight taking a stand, sorry, would be destroyed within minutes of the match. You of course know this. Edited by Rudi Hedman (08 Dec 2020 11.56am) Untrue. That few, if any, have, indicates that within the dressing rooms there is a unanimity of purpose presumably because they have witnessed the effects at first hand and via first-hand testimony. They also know that they have a unique opportunity via a worldwide audience to make a strong statement. Nevertheless, if anyone wanted to stand aside, and offered rational reasoning on why that would be respected. It has elsewhere so why not here.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Dec 20 12.29pm |
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Originally posted by Stirlingsays
When WE's positions are questioned and it always seems to come down to 'It's true because I say it is'. BS. I have given many examples of why the position I am explaining is a fact. Mostly connected with those who, because they are the ones directly involved, know their own minds rather better than you do. Facts matter. Not whether I say it.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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Nicholas91  The Democratic Republic of Kent 08 Dec 20 12.30pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
I don't use the BBS but I'll take your word for it. Maybe, just maybe, they are taking the majority view among our fans. Have you ever considered that? That perhaps you are isolated and wrong? Why you persist in seeking to associate the players "taking the knee" with BLM politics when everyone involved with it has made it clear beyond the slightest doubt that isn't so, beats me. You might find it hard to believe but some people actually tell the truth and do things because they care about them and think they can make a difference. Or do you think Marcus Rashford must have political motivations behind his actions? That some think it has outlived its usefulness and ought to be retired is fine too, just as if anyone didn't wish to participate in the first place. People can make up their own minds. You can tell you haven't been on there. The BBS actually has some decent discussions on the matter, the majority actually. It does however have on there a quite obvious contingent of extreme left posters, and I mean the extreme, to the point I would question whether they are fans at all or not just hijackers. As previously mentioned, this does not exclude people openly identifying as 'Antifa'. As for BLM, there are also some posters who have posted long narratives quite pathetically trying to justify the BLM 'manifesto' let alone disassociate it with the kneeling. Your posts do baffle me sometimes to the point I become very suspicious and tend not to reply but thought I would give you some insight on this one. There can some hurtful comments from both sides on here (boohoo) but in comparison it does actually make me grateful that a platform exists where we can have sometimes heated discussion without some nutcase posting things like this when someone (an OP) merely poses the question of whether people would boo or not without any indication of their position: "I would boo you, you f**king Aids toilet c**t"
Now Zaha's got a bit of green grass ahead of him here... and finds Ambrose... not a bad effort!!!! |
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| Eaglecoops CR3 08 Dec 20 12.31pm |
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Originally posted by DanH
I love how I'm the child yet you all have this weird obsession and rivalry with another Palace fans' message board. What do you mean by all? What do you mean by weird obsession? All I’ve seen are a few posts explaining why those of a sane disposition should stay away from the bbs because it spends most of its time spouting heavily left wing politics. I joined, read a few pages and never returned as I don’t believe it’s a board that has a balanced viewpoint. There are some right wingers here and some left but most try to see the world for what it is and not what an insignificant group want to make it.
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 08 Dec 20 12.35pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
Untrue. That few, if any, have, indicates that within the dressing rooms there is a unanimity of purpose presumably because they have witnessed the effects at first hand and via first-hand testimony. They also know that they have a unique opportunity via a worldwide audience to make a strong statement. Nevertheless, if anyone wanted to stand aside, and offered rational reasoning on why that would be respected. It has elsewhere so why not here. You know that all players are for it because nobody has said they aren’t for taking the knee every week. Of course you’re right as usual. You’d be at risk of being crucified. They’re probably now at the point where they’re so focused on playing that this bollox is too stressful in potentially throwing them off their concentration and not worry getting involved in so just drop to one knee and remember the instructions and what they’re expected to do in the match. And on the subject of alleged regular abuse from the stands, I don’t see how taking the knee would change it. As I said, it’s becoming more divisive so is in danger of having the opposite effect. Who expected that? Oh just plenty of people while it continued.
COYP |
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Dec 20 12.36pm |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
For Christ sake Wisbech. They are clearly associated and if you want to disassociate from it then change the bloody slogan. Edited by Hrolf The Ganger (08 Dec 2020 12.20pm) You really are a case aren't you? Faced by incontrovertible facts you still deny them. I didn't choose the slogan. Nor did they. The BLM political movement hijacked it but that doesn't mean that the sentiment which has inspired the players has any connection to them, especially when they have gone out of their way to deny it and reassure people. Those facts ought to kill these preposterous claims from you and others, but somehow I see chalk being described as cheese for a long time yet.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| Rudi Hedman Caterham 08 Dec 20 12.38pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
BS. I have given many examples of why the position I am explaining is a fact. Mostly connected with those who, because they are the ones directly involved, know their own minds rather better than you do. Facts matter. Not whether I say it. You’ve read every mind of every footballer in England? Wow, lottery numbers please. Maybe your super powers didn’t stretch to QPR players who didn’t take the knee after their black director, Les Ferdinand, instructed them not to. You really are amusing. Now some QPR players might take the knee because the booing is being reported as racist. Well we’ll see tonight during the kick it out banner if it was.
COYP |
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| Mapletree Croydon 08 Dec 20 12.43pm |
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Originally posted by Spiderman
Serious questions: Would the best candidate get the job or would it be decided on colour? Why are they in demand, to satisfy quotas? It is established that diverse organisations overall perform better and it is therefore financially and organisationally useful to try to get the balance correct. To encourage diversity some organisations may place a small additional weighting on a diversity candidate. But likely only in roles where diversity is relatively low compared to the benefit. So where someone is managing a highly diverse group or where currently there is little diversity. This is unlikely to cut in until senior levels. It is incredibly hard to hire Executive Directors from diversity backgrounds, I have had personal experience both here and in the US. I aim to ensure good diversity at one level below Executive to try to grow our own, given the scarcity. Remember that Diversity covers many areas, not just ethnicity or race. It is the case in London that you would aim for as near as possible 50% women at senior levels and ideally 34% ethnic diversity, 5% disabled and 4.5% LGBTQA. Plus a good age spread. This is almost never possible. I won't hire unqualified candidates as that is a recipe for a string of failures within our diversity colleagues. I just know the kind of response I shall get here from this but hey, I really don't care. This is the correct thing to do.
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| Hrolf The Ganger 08 Dec 20 12.45pm |
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Originally posted by Wisbech Eagle
You really are a case aren't you? Faced by incontrovertible facts you still deny them. I didn't choose the slogan. Nor did they. The BLM political movement hijacked it but that doesn't mean that the sentiment which has inspired the players has any connection to them, especially when they have gone out of their way to deny it and reassure people. Those facts ought to kill these preposterous claims from you and others, but somehow I see chalk being described as cheese for a long time yet. So change the slogan. If Footballers want to disassociate from that history then they better stop using the same expressions. I also wish someone would also explain exactly what racism they are protesting about because this whole episode seems to have been inspired by the killing of a violent Black criminal who resisted arrest in another country. The whole thing is so bonkers that it has no credibility at all.
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| Wisbech Eagle Truro Cornwall 08 Dec 20 12.45pm |
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Originally posted by Rudi Hedman
You know that all players are for it because nobody has said they aren’t for taking the knee every week. Of course you’re right as usual. You’d be at risk of being crucified. They’re probably now at the point where they’re so focused on playing that this bollox is too stressful in potentially throwing them off their concentration and not worry getting involved in so just drop to one knee and remember the instructions and what they’re expected to do in the match. And on the subject of alleged regular abuse from the stands, I don’t see how taking the knee would change it. As I said, it’s becoming more divisive so is in danger of having the opposite effect. Who expected that? Oh just plenty of people while it continued. I am not in the dressing rooms any more than you are but I have been impressed by the level of solidarity that seems to exist and the words spoken by all the players who have offered opinions. They seem to believe that their worldwide exposure enables them to make a statement and they all want to be part of that. Quite frankly I doubt whether they care too much what a small group of supporters in south London think about it. If the coaches thought it was causing a distraction I would expect them to be doing something. As I have said I have no issue over whether people think its time for its retirement to indeed whether it will impact racism from the stands, but that's unimportant. It was never intended to. These days the people in the stands are there to provide the noise and the visual wallpaper for the real target market.
For the avoidance of doubt any comments in response to a previous post are directed to its ideas and not at any, or all, posters personally. |
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| W12 08 Dec 20 12.46pm | |
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Originally posted by Mapletree
It is established that diverse organisations overall perform better and it is therefore financially and organisationally useful to try to get the balance correct. To encourage diversity some organisations may place a small additional weighting on a diversity candidate. But likely only in roles where diversity is relatively low compared to the benefit. So where someone is managing a highly diverse group or where currently there is little diversity. This is unlikely to cut in until senior levels. It is incredibly hard to hire Executive Directors from diversity backgrounds, I have had personal experience both here and in the US. I aim to ensure good diversity at one level below Executive to try to grow our own, given the scarcity. Remember that Diversity covers many areas, not just ethnicity or race. It is the case in London that you would aim for as near as possible 50% women at senior levels and ideally 34% ethnic diversity, 5% disabled and 4.5% LGBTQA. Plus a good age spread. This is almost never possible. I won't hire unqualified candidates as that is a recipe for a string of failures within our diversity colleagues. I just know the kind of response I shall get here from this but hey, I really don't care. This is the correct thing to do. "It is established that diverse organisations overall perform better" Yes, it is established in propaganda. How we were struggling before diversity came along.
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