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Another black man shot by police in USA
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 EverybodyDannsNow  SE19 21 Jul 16 11.08am |
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Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger
You are judging that incident with insufficient evidence. The video I saw did not show the shooting or the reason for it. My gut feeling was that the policeman panicked. I totally agree that any unlawful killing by the police is a matter of concern for all of us. My main cause for concern is the disproportionate response they get relative to other crime. As someone who does not involve themselves in organised crime or carry a gun, I would consider myself to me far more at risk from criminality than the police. It is that simple. Putting my judgement aside, which I will respond to in a minute - the guy still wasn't a criminal. He was a law-abiding citizen, legally carrying a weapon. Criminality will always exist in society, it's very difficult to control - police behaviour is something entirely within our control, and these are people paid and professionally prepared to keep us safe - that is why there is such a 'disproportionate response'.
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| Midlands Eagle 21 Jul 16 11.15am |
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Headline in today's Mirror shouts "Horrifying picture shows moment unarmed black carer was shot by police as he tried to calm autistic patient" Headline in News Shopper shouts "Residents' shock after teenage girl gang-raped in Church House Gardens, Bromley" In one newspaper it is deemed important that the person shot by police was black whilst in the other the colour of the people who gang raped a teenage girl isn't deemed important at all
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Jul 16 11.16am |
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Originally posted by 7mins
It's trial by media, you see a clip on Facebook and feel qualified to label people executioners/murderers. Then 8 cops get killed and people start to realise how dangerous accusations based on next to no evidence are. Yes, but that's weighing in from a point of selection. You have to view the entire context, in which there is clearly a very serious issue with police and use of lethal force, along with oversight, that brought that story to the media in the first place. The police are equally culpable, to the protesters, for failing to properly oversee and regulate their own forces, with impartiality and openness, preferring a more politically expedient solution. This isn't a new thing, assorted Police Departments across the last 40 or 50 years in the US have had very serious issues with racism, and come into direct conflict with civil rights groups and the Federal government.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 21 Jul 16 11.19am |
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Originally posted by 7mins
The clip with the guy in the car has 2 witnesses (not including the child). One picks up her phone and records a message saying her boyfriend was reaching for his license, while the copper says "I told him not to move" I may have jumped the gun slightly in my judgement, but you're never going to get a fair ruling from any inquest of this sort, so waiting for an official verdict is pretty pointless. I struggle to understand why a 32 year old with no criminal history, who's been pulled over for a broken brake light, would inform the officer he's armed and then proceed to draw for his weapon against police orders, and his girlfriend would then live stream the fall-out, having the awareness to make up a story as she does, while the policeman stands there clearly rattled as s*** at what he's done - that's not a logical sequence of events as far as I'm concerned. Could you come up with a story about being asked to produce your license as your partner is dying next to you with your young child in the back? Because I certainly couldn't.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Jul 16 11.25am |
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Originally posted by Midlands Eagle
Headline in today's Mirror shouts "Horrifying picture shows moment unarmed black carer was shot by police as he tried to calm autistic patient" Headline in News Shopper shouts "Residents' shock after teenage girl gang-raped in Church House Gardens, Bromley" In one newspaper it is deemed important that the person shot by police was black whilst in the other the colour of the people who gang raped a teenage girl isn't deemed important at all Quite, but that's the media for you. It has no problem with highlighting certain elements of a story that aren't relevant such as black, muslim etc to help 'push its copy'. Either you list all the details, or some. By the use of race, religion etc serves to sell the story to 'the market bias'. If it was White Police officer Shoots Black Man' then that's neutral, but Police officer shoots black man, immediately pegs the story to certain prejudicial biases in public opinion. Its why you often hear of Muslim child sex offender, and not white or Christian, because in the object here is not to report the facts, but to feed into bias and popularism, to sell copy.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Jul 16 11.32am |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
I may have jumped the gun slightly in my judgement, but you're never going to get a fair ruling from any inquest of this sort, so waiting for an official verdict is pretty pointless. I struggle to understand why a 32 year old with no criminal history, who's been pulled over for a broken brake light, would inform the officer he's armed and then proceed to draw for his weapon against police orders, and his girlfriend would then live stream the fall-out, having the awareness to make up a story as she does, while the policeman stands there clearly rattled as s*** at what he's done - that's not a logical sequence of events as far as I'm concerned. Could you come up with a story about being asked to produce your license as your partner is dying next to you with your young child in the back? Because I certainly couldn't. Quite, I'm also curious as to how the US gets to a situation where so many routine police activities such as a traffic stop etc result in fatal shootings. I'd imagine, he informed the police officer that he had a carry permit and a licenced gun, in order to not get shot if the copper saw the gun, and the police officer acted as if a gun was in play, rather than possession. Given that gun transport, carry permits etc are legal, its curious that the officer clearly exhibited no reasonable experience or training of having to deal with someone in a routine situation where someone has a legally owned fully licenced firearm. Especially given the prevalence of firearms in the states. I know there have been some incidents where police officers have been shot during such events. But they aren't common place, and would be better resolved with process and procedural changes, to how officers deal with a routine car stop, rather than being in a position where you can shoot someone like this. I'm also very sceptical of the police on the basis that people seem to be able to go to restaurants with assault rifles, and airports in some states, without being shot. I suspect that race plays a part, in that police officers may well be institutionalised towards seeing black males as gangbangers and criminals first, and citizens second.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Jul 16 11.41am |
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I also believe that Police officers should be held to higher standards than ordinary citizens and criminals, when it comes to issues relating to the law and law enforcement. Same as with any organisation, whether its the military or professional body - the expectation is of competence, training and professionalism to situations the rest of us are not. And I think that's reasonable expectation in any professional, and I also believe they should be at least just as accountable as any one else, not less, because of the job they do, and the training they receive. I suspect that a lot of police forces in the US are lowly paid, understaffed, have a poor candidate pool to select from, and have a high turn over of quality staff into other more lucrative and rewarding professions. I also suspect that training standards for acceptance are very low in some areas and that officers who may well have been rejected in other more discerning districts and forces, will be accepted by more desperate forces, resulting in people who really shouldn't be in uniform, carrying a lethal fire arm, with authority, being in the field with poor oversight. I also suspect that officers are exposed far to quickly to too much responsibility, without sufficient experience, due to budgetary reasons - resulting in officers being 'unsupervised' and in positions they are not experienced enough to cope with.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| EverybodyDannsNow SE19 21 Jul 16 11.43am |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Quite, I'm also curious as to how the US gets to a situation where so many routine police activities such as a traffic stop etc result in fatal shootings. I'd imagine, he informed the police officer that he had a carry permit and a licenced gun, in order to not get shot if the copper saw the gun, and the police officer acted as if a gun was in play, rather than possession. Given that gun transport, carry permits etc are legal, its curious that the officer clearly exhibited no reasonable experience or training of having to deal with someone in a routine situation where someone has a legally owned fully licenced firearm. Especially given the prevalence of firearms in the states. I know there have been some incidents where police officers have been shot during such events. But they aren't common place, and would be better resolved with process and procedural changes, to how officers deal with a routine car stop, rather than being in a position where you can shoot someone like this. I'm also very sceptical of the police on the basis that people seem to be able to go to restaurants with assault rifles, and airports in some states, without being shot. I suspect that race plays a part, in that police officers may well be institutionalised towards seeing black males as gangbangers and criminals first, and citizens second Agreed - I don't think this cop was a conscious racist, I just think he's been ill-trained to do the job, and as you say, has had all sorts of preconceptions about black males imposed on him, and this combination is what meant he ended up killing the guy.
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| Stuk Top half 21 Jul 16 12.13pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Quite, but that's the media for you. It has no problem with highlighting certain elements of a story that aren't relevant such as black, muslim etc to help 'push its copy'. Either you list all the details, or some. By the use of race, religion etc serves to sell the story to 'the market bias'. If it was White Police officer Shoots Black Man' then that's neutral, but Police officer shoots black man, immediately pegs the story to certain prejudicial biases in public opinion. Its why you often hear of Muslim child sex offender, and not white or Christian, because in the object here is not to report the facts, but to feed into bias and popularism, to sell copy. Erm... How many countless stories of kiddy fiddling within the catholic church has there been again?
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| 7mins In the bush 21 Jul 16 12.43pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
I may have jumped the gun slightly in my judgement, but you're never going to get a fair ruling from any inquest of this sort, so waiting for an official verdict is pretty pointless. I struggle to understand why a 32 year old with no criminal history, who's been pulled over for a broken brake light, would inform the officer he's armed and then proceed to draw for his weapon against police orders, and his girlfriend would then live stream the fall-out, having the awareness to make up a story as she does, while the policeman stands there clearly rattled as s*** at what he's done - that's not a logical sequence of events as far as I'm concerned. Could you come up with a story about being asked to produce your license as your partner is dying next to you with your young child in the back? Because I certainly couldn't. If my partner was dying I wouldn't dream of picking up a phone, starting a Facebook app and then live streaming.
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| 7mins In the bush 21 Jul 16 12.52pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I also believe that Police officers should be held to higher standards than ordinary citizens and criminals, when it comes to issues relating to the law and law enforcement. Same as with any organisation, whether its the military or professional body - the expectation is of competence, training and professionalism to situations the rest of us are not. And I think that's reasonable expectation in any professional, and I also believe they should be at least just as accountable as any one else, not less, because of the job they do, and the training they receive. I suspect that a lot of police forces in the US are lowly paid, understaffed, have a poor candidate pool to select from, and have a high turn over of quality staff into other more lucrative and rewarding professions. I also suspect that training standards for acceptance are very low in some areas and that officers who may well have been rejected in other more discerning districts and forces, will be accepted by more desperate forces, resulting in people who really shouldn't be in uniform, carrying a lethal fire arm, with authority, being in the field with poor oversight. I also suspect that officers are exposed far to quickly to too much responsibility, without sufficient experience, due to budgetary reasons - resulting in officers being 'unsupervised' and in positions they are not experienced enough to cope with. Jamie.
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| Midlands Eagle 21 Jul 16 12.54pm |
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Originally posted by 7mins
If my partner was dying I wouldn't dream of picking up a phone, starting a Facebook app and then live streaming. Sign of the times I'm afraid
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