Another black man shot by police in USA
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 7mins  In the bush 21 Jul 16 12.54pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I refer you to the post above. In any other 'free' country, that's murder.
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| 7mins In the bush 21 Jul 16 12.54pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I don't think there is any doubt that if a suspect is armed and dangerous, shooting is acceptable. However, if your restrained by two big police officers, and incapable of drawing a weapon, then you're clearly not dangerous, as two burly guys seem to have felt safe enough to physically tackle you to the ground and pin you. I'd imagine that they were happy to find the gun after shooting him and the report covers that as a significant factor in the actions. It doesn't explain why two police officers restrained him first, before another shot him.
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| 7mins In the bush 21 Jul 16 12.55pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
Which would explain shooting him, prior to physically restraining to the point he couldn't pose a threat. Context is important. Shooting restrained prisoners is a crime, even in a warzone. When the representative of state authority of the use of force undertakes that role, its vital for the safety of citizens, that force is proportional to the situation not to their personal prejudices or fears. I can see shooting being justified prior to physically engaging the suspect and restraining him. Shooting him once restrained, is an execution (not to mention the danger it could pose to the officers restaining him). Its also relevant that in such a situation, the use of pepper spray, batton or taser would have been justified. Lethal force, certainly not.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Jul 16 1.08pm |
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Originally posted by 7mins
Jamie. No I think that was more the emotional feeling arising from reading the accounts and watching the videos. Of course I'm influenced by media and incidents, everyone is. Over time, from then, through discussion my thoughts and feelings have changed. I've considered the situation, and the arguments, which have been varied, and its resulted in a change, as well as reading around the story (about police pay, recruitment, training etc). I think it could be murder, and an execution style one - But that's an opinion, it would need to be determined before a impartial jury of peers (Murder).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Jul 16 1.11pm |
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Originally posted by Stuk
Erm... How many countless stories of kiddy fiddling within the catholic church has there been again? It was an example, its of course notable how much emphasis is on Catholic Priests, rather than protestant priests in news stories (given that the UK and US are predominately Protestant Christian countries etc).
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| Stuk Top half 21 Jul 16 1.21pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
It was an example, its of course notable how much emphasis is on Catholic Priests, rather than protestant priests in news stories (given that the UK and US are predominately Protestant Christian countries etc). You are intolerable with your insistence that there must be bias in everything. Your point was it's always about emphasising the Muslim aspect, now it's about always about Catholics if it's not about Muslims. I can't stand any of the religions, I just picked a highly proven example to point out how daft your assertion was.
Optimistic as ever |
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| 7mins In the bush 21 Jul 16 1.22pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
No I think that was more the emotional feeling arising from reading the accounts and watching the videos. Of course I'm influenced by media and incidents, everyone is. Over time, from then, through discussion my thoughts and feelings have changed. I've considered the situation, and the arguments, which have been varied, and its resulted in a change, as well as reading around the story (about police pay, recruitment, training etc). I think it could be murder, and an execution style one - But that's an opinion, it would need to be determined before a impartial jury of peers (Murder). Fair play.... People changing their opinions is a rare thing on this site...and life in general. My point has always been...this could be unjustified or justified... I can see how police tackling a criminal see him reach for a gun and assume the worst... It becomes (in their mind) a matter of life and death. The Michael Brown killing was totally justified in my opinion. Black witnesses backed the cops story, forensics backed the cops story, yet because the lie of "hands up, don't shoot" was repeated so often, people thought it must be true... You had NBA stars wearing t-shirts with that slogan, you had Beyonce saying it during a concert... And it was a massive lie... And all of this was before the trial... The media are f***ing insane.
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Jul 16 1.24pm |
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Originally posted by 7mins
If my partner was dying I wouldn't dream of picking up a phone, starting a Facebook app and then live streaming. What would you do if someone was shot right in front of you, by a police officer? I'm going to guess, like me, you don't know. Originally posted by 7mins
I am not saying who is telling the truth, anyone that forms a opinion from that clip, clearly has a agenda. So we can assume that part of her story is correct, as he must have informed the police officer he had a gun. I quite agree, that the facts and evidence must be established. Shamefully that isn't how these things generally play out - Which is why independent enquiries are needed. Originally posted by 7mins
If a copper tells you to not to move... Don't move... America isn't the country to be belligerent. If you inform a copper you have a gun at a traffic stop, he is gonna get you out of the car... If you do the above, you don't deserve to die, but in a country flooded with guns, and high crime it increases the chance of a misunderstanding happening. Of course if you do have a gun, and don't tell the police, they could shoot you... If you tell them you have a legal gun and a licence, they could shoot you. Which to me, suggests a degree of acceptance of incompetency, professionalism, information and poor training. Interestingly, the NRA can accept some responsibility here for preventing the ATF national database of legal guns being established, which of course would allow police officers to determine from cross reference if a person was in potentially in possession of a legal fire arm and or licence. But, and here is a big point of separation, the police must surely be trained to deal with people who have concealed carry permits, in states where such things are legal, without shooting them. Having seen some '2nd Amendment' protests, there is a definite tolerance of people with guns in public, that isn't exampled here. I think these cases, bring up a number of issues in the US, that have largely gone unchecked and are tied into stupid popularism. Gun Control, Racism, Police Oversight, Public Service funding, Taxation, Social Divisions and the massive power of the Gun Lobby.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| jamiemartin721 Reading 21 Jul 16 1.40pm |
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Originally posted by 7mins
Fair play.... People changing their opinions is a rare thing on this site...and life in general. My point has always been...this could be unjustified or justified... I can see how police tackling a criminal see him reach for a gun and assume the worst... It becomes (in their mind) a matter of life and death. The Michael Brown killing was totally justified in my opinion. Black witnesses backed the cops story, forensics backed the cops story, yet because the lie of "hands up, don't shoot" was repeated so often, people thought it must be true... You had NBA stars wearing t-shirts with that slogan, you had Beyonce saying it during a concert... And it was a massive lie... And all of this was before the trial... The media are f***ing insane. I don't, the use of a gun on a suspect, who does not have nor is it reasonable to believe, has a lethal weapon, is overkill, as is firing 13 shots of which 8 hit, completely irresponsible. I don't think its necessarily murder or manslaughter, either. Our police here regularly deal with even potentially violent suspects, without resorting to immediately shooting them (in fact police rarely shoot anyone in the UK). Even people with knives and less lethal weapons, are dealt with, without putting 8 rounds in them, and five shots wide into public space. Because we have a trained and professional police force, equipped to do the job, with sufficient training and confidence to deal with aggressive suspects, without shooting them. And there in lies the crux I feel, not that Brown was a justified shooting under US law, but that it was unnecessary and unlikely to have occurred anywhere in the west except the US. I get that the officer in pursuit, found himself facing a larger, possibly more capable suspect, and its scary (I'd probably shoot, but then I am not a police officer - I should be confident, sufficiently trained and aware of support to deal with the situation without emptying my gun). And this is the problem, the US approach seems to be where ever possible to make the idea of self defence and killing people easier and more acceptable, something almost to be celebrated, rather than something of a last resort.
"One Nation Under God, has turned into One Nation Under the Influence of One Drug" |
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| 7mins In the bush 21 Jul 16 2.06pm |
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Originally posted by jamiemartin721
I don't, the use of a gun on a suspect, who does not have nor is it reasonable to believe, has a lethal weapon, is overkill, as is firing 13 shots of which 8 hit, completely irresponsible. I don't think its necessarily murder or manslaughter, either. Our police here regularly deal with even potentially violent suspects, without resorting to immediately shooting them (in fact police rarely shoot anyone in the UK). Even people with knives and less lethal weapons, are dealt with, without putting 8 rounds in them, and five shots wide into public space. Because we have a trained and professional police force, equipped to do the job, with sufficient training and confidence to deal with aggressive suspects, without shooting them. And there in lies the crux I feel, not that Brown was a justified shooting under US law, but that it was unnecessary and unlikely to have occurred anywhere in the west except the US. I get that the officer in pursuit, found himself facing a larger, possibly more capable suspect, and its scary (I'd probably shoot, but then I am not a police officer - I should be confident, sufficiently trained and aware of support to deal with the situation without emptying my gun). And this is the problem, the US approach seems to be where ever possible to make the idea of self defence and killing people easier and more acceptable, something almost to be celebrated, rather than something of a last resort. Michael Brown tried to get the officers gun. The first shot was discharged while MB was holding the gun, the 2nd shot hit the car door. The police officer didn't unload a clip in to him. He shot at a man attacking him. MB charged him after attacking him.. That copper knew if MB got his gun, he was probably a dead man. Witnesses say the officer stopped firing as soon as MB dropped to the floor.
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nairb75  Baltimore 21 Jul 16 3.19pm |
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guy shot today helping his job helping an autistic patient. hands were up.
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| Ray in Houston Houston 21 Jul 16 3.32pm |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
So anyone who poses with guns on facebook is fair game for police to kill? Great policy. On the plus side, it gives us the option to rid the world of Donald Trump Jr.
We don't do possession; we do defense and attack. Everything else is just wa**ing with a football. |
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