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The Brexit Thread (LOCKED)


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Stirlingsays Flag 25 Apr 17 9.28am

Originally posted by legaleagle

I presume you are referring immigration? Forgive me if I am wrong.

You suggest its all people like Nick's "fault".

So far as I can see,when you refer to C**ts telling you how to live,you must mean telling you to live alongside people who are not the English "volk".Well,that rules out Wilf, Punch, Bolasie,Victor Moses, Nat Clyne etc.None of them have enriched our local football culture at all,have they?

Well,without getting into your game of "fault",ie something to blame,let's look at fundamentals.

Non EU pre 1990's immigration, fundamental starting point was the Tory governments 1951-64.This included the "muslim" immigration that vexes you so.

EU immigration (almost all non Muslim immigration).The key fundamental starting point was Thatcher's vision of an enlarged EU moving eastwards to take in the former Soviet bloc countries in Europe.

Mind you,I'd have to agree with you that Thatcher was a c**t,but for different reasons!

Edited by legaleagle (25 Apr 2017 9.19am)

Oh my god this is so stupid!

Nearly every time you get this simplistic misunderstanding or maybe it's deliberate who knows.

Ok....read slowly so you can take it in.

I'm not against immigration that the government can control.....Hang on....have you got that?

Let's say this again...so we don't have to put up with stupid posts like the one you just wrote....and just in case you weren't quite taking notice. Me...hell Ukip policy was not to stop immigration. It was to control it. Bring it down certainly but to have the power to decide who we let in.

So sorry...you point about football players is completely stupid.

And yes, I blame anyone who supported uncontrolled immigration from anywhere, EU or non EU. So that does appear to be people like you and Nick. Congratulations, you created Ukip. You got exactly what you deserved.

Islamic immigration....so pleasing to learn that it doesn't 'vex' you. That is a definite issue I have it's true but it's completely unrelated to EU immigration and concerns me on a different level.

If it had no effect upon secular society it wouldn't bother me.....But you see...unlike you it appears...I take note of what happens in different countries that undergo different demographic changes.

Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Apr 2017 9.31am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

steeleye20 Flag Croydon 25 Apr 17 9.50am

Originally posted by Kermit8

As a starting point? A one-size fits all solution like that is way, way too simplistic. There are just so many factors/variables from country to country that will influence relationships and deals. Personalities, positional strengths and weaknesses, public opinion, length of time to finalise a deal, hubris, etc. Don't forget, these are politicians we are talking about.

Canada won't rely on EU fruit and veg pickers, for example, to maximise productivity in that sector nor have nearly 20% of Uni Academics from EU countries as we have here [Link] so, perhaps, aspects which are convoluted for the UK/EU are much more black and white for Canada/EU

This is not the time for naive idealism. That ended with Article 50 being invoked. Hard practical solutions, please.

Canada and the USA are the biggest trade partners in the world 75% of Canadian exports go just over the border.

The deal was a last minute political fix but I don't think much actual trade is expected between the EU and Canada its an add-on really.

The EU includes us so are in this deal in case we have forgotten we are actually in the EU.

It seems most trade is with the country near to you as its just so much easier so its pretty silly not to continue in the single market particularly as its a British initiative from a conservative PM Mrs Thatcher.

I am sure I would be quite happy to buy Canadian things but I cannot remember seeing any perhaps McDonalds will do moose-burgers.......

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 25 Apr 17 10.03am

Originally posted by steeleye20

Canada and the USA are the biggest trade partners in the world 75% of Canadian exports go just over the border.

The deal was a last minute political fix but I don't think much actual trade is expected between the EU and Canada its an add-on really.

The EU includes us so are in this deal in case we have forgotten we are actually in the EU.

It seems most trade is with the country near to you as its just so much easier so its pretty silly not to continue in the single market particularly as its a British initiative from a conservative PM Mrs Thatcher.

I am sure I would be quite happy to buy Canadian things but I cannot remember seeing any perhaps McDonalds will do moose-burgers.......


Maple syrup?

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 25 Apr 17 10.11am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

What does it matter whether they got 'more votes per seat'? Hahaha! It's a UK election and it's a question about UK coverage.

Ukip actually had more votes and the question was as too whether they deserved the press they received.

They quite plainly did.

Though in matters that aren't related to the EU....I'm not quite so sure.

Well that's how you win seats in Parliament and become relevant. It's also a gauge of how well you're supported by your target audience. Share of the vote is much more important than absolute numbers. SNP are clearly much more important than UKIP and hold much more power. UKIP get way too much airtime and largely it has been due to a cult of personality (Farage), racist things their members come out with in public (Bongo Bongo land for example), or more recently revelations that Paul Nuttall performed just after the Hoff on top of the Berlin wall when it came down and was the lesser known fourth spaceman in the 1969 moon landings, staying in the space craft to keep Michael Collins company.

 

Stirlingsays Flag 25 Apr 17 10.51am

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Well that's how you win seats in Parliament and become relevant. It's also a gauge of how well you're supported by your target audience. Share of the vote is much more important than absolute numbers. SNP are clearly much more important than UKIP and hold much more power. UKIP get way too much airtime and largely it has been due to a cult of personality (Farage), racist things their members come out with in public (Bongo Bongo land for example), or more recently revelations that Paul Nuttall performed just after the Hoff on top of the Berlin wall when it came down and was the lesser known fourth spaceman in the 1969 moon landings, staying in the space craft to keep Michael Collins company.

Well, you say the SNP are more important than Ukip....In Scotland they certainly are....But Ukip's affect upon politics has been far more effective than the Scottish nationalists has. The SNP lost their vote on separation. It is not certain they will be allowed one again. If they are it is unlikely that they will succeed in a vote for independence....though that's just my take on that.

The fact that Ukip gained four million votes...which again is more than the SNP....yet had just one MP shows a weakness in the democratic process. You can go on about seats all you like...and in a way I agree with you but the point still remains that sheer vote size wasn't rewarded with representation.

Regardless, none of these are points to do with the one I made.

Nick implied that Ukip's press was unwarranted. In fact the vote size shows that it clearly was warranted all along. The fact that you agree with him tells us all we need to know.

Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Apr 2017 10.53am)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 25 Apr 17 11.06am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Oh my god this is so stupid!

Nearly every time you get this simplistic misunderstanding or maybe it's deliberate who knows.

Ok....read slowly so you can take it in.

I'm not against immigration that the government can control.....Hang on....have you got that?

Let's say this again...so we don't have to put up with stupid posts like the one you just wrote....and just in case you weren't quite taking notice. Me...hell Ukip policy was not to stop immigration. It was to control it. Bring it down certainly but to have the power to decide who we let in.

So sorry...you point about football players is completely stupid.

And yes, I blame anyone who supported uncontrolled immigration from anywhere, EU or non EU. So that does appear to be people like you and Nick. Congratulations, you created Ukip. You got exactly what you deserved.

Islamic immigration....so pleasing to learn that it doesn't 'vex' you. That is a definite issue I have it's true but it's completely unrelated to EU immigration and concerns me on a different level.

If it had no effect upon secular society it wouldn't bother me.....But you see...unlike you it appears...I take note of what happens in different countries that undergo different demographic changes.

Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Apr 2017 9.31am)

I challenge you to point out where I have supported uncontrolled immigration.

Do we even have uncontrolled immigration or is that a fallacy perpetuated by the media?

 

Yellow Card - User has been warned of conduct on the messageboards Hrolf The Ganger Flag 25 Apr 17 11.13am

Originally posted by nickgusset

I challenge you to point out where I have supported uncontrolled immigration.

Do we even have uncontrolled immigration or is that a fallacy perpetuated by the media?

Certainly European immigration is not controlled by British government.
There is no doubt in my mind that it should be much harder to come and live in the UK.

 

CambridgeEagle Flag Sydenham 25 Apr 17 11.28am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

Well, you say the SNP are more important than Ukip....In Scotland they certainly are....But Ukip's affect upon politics has been far more effective than the Scottish nationalists has. The SNP lost their vote on separation. It is not certain they will be allowed one again. If they are it is unlikely that they will succeed in a vote for independence....though that's just my take on that.

The fact that Ukip gained four million votes...which again is more than the SNP....yet had just one MP shows a weakness in the democratic process. You can go on about seats all you like...and in a way I agree with you but the point still remains that sheer vote size wasn't rewarded with representation.

Regardless, none of these are points to do with the one I made.

Nick implied that Ukip's press was unwarranted. In fact the vote size shows that it clearly was warranted all along. The fact that you agree with him tells us all we need to know.

Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Apr 2017 10.53am)

You seemed to suggest UKIP warranted more or equal press compared with the SNP based on number of votes. I disagreed with that. Irrespective of what Nick said.

We had a vote on changing the voting system and the Tories wanted to keep FPTP and that's what happened. That's the system we've got and so that's what is relevant. I'd prefer a system closer to PR myself but that's not the system we have. Under the current system their press coverage was unwarranted.

You're perfectly right that UKIP have had a significant impact in the past 7 years, however this has been driven by the press giving them disproportionate air time largely as a result of the points I mentioned previously. A lot of their coverage has come for non-policy based reasons!

 

cpfc_chap Flag koh samui 25 Apr 17 4.05pm

Wasn't ukip formed to disrupt the EU hence why they have so many MEPs which was NF's plan?

 

Stirlingsays Flag 25 Apr 17 4.21pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

I challenge you to point out where I have supported uncontrolled immigration.

Do we even have uncontrolled immigration or is that a fallacy perpetuated by the media?

Fair enough, but since you supported the Labour party and hence uncontrolled EU immigration and really dislike Ukip to the point of calling its former leader a 'cu-t'...I kind of naturally assumed it.

I don't recall reading about any problems you have with uncontrolled EU immigration into the country. Maybe I have missed a few posts.

Here is your opportunity to educate me and others. What is the Gusset opinion on how immigration into the UK should be handled?

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays Flag 25 Apr 17 4.41pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

You seemed to suggest UKIP warranted more or equal press compared with the SNP based on number of votes. I disagreed with that. Irrespective of what Nick said.

We had a vote on changing the voting system and the Tories wanted to keep FPTP and that's what happened. That's the system we've got and so that's what is relevant. I'd prefer a system closer to PR myself but that's not the system we have. Under the current system their press coverage was unwarranted.

You're perfectly right that UKIP have had a significant impact in the past 7 years, however this has been driven by the press giving them disproportionate air time largely as a result of the points I mentioned previously. A lot of their coverage has come for non-policy based reasons!

Sorry I think you are frankly deluded to suggest that Ukip's press was undeserved. It already had press editors in the paper media who agreed with it before it even started.

Polls had shown for years that anti EU feeling was there and growing and was frankly unrepresented by the major leaderships in the parties.

Yes we have fptp but that doesn't mean that we don't try to cover for its weaknesses by ignoring popular movements who take significant voter share.

Ever since Thatcher said, 'No, no, no' to the gradual encroachment that she realised she had played a part in. A space for an anti EU party was evident.

While the Tory party was moving more and more onto its ground it was always going to find it hard to actually take seats. It's ended up being more successful with former Labour supporters in the north, who quite rightly grew to understand that those who actually run the Labour party look down at them....Like you with your fondness for name calling.

Still I agree that to a certain extent coverage beyond these parties remits is problematical. Ukip becoming more than a one policy party was perhaps a mistake and the SNP sticking its noses into English politics, where it has very little support, is plainly wrong....Their excuse that English politics affects Scottish politics is sheer expediency.

But for you to say that Ukip only succeeded because of press just shows the total lack of understanding that many on the left still have about those who disagree with them.

Every party goes cap in hand for coverage and who is to say whether their support would be there without it.

Former Tory my foot....My Michael Foot more like.

Edited by Stirlingsays (25 Apr 2017 4.47pm)

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 25 Apr 17 10.40pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

UKIP are all for selling off the NHS. That's enough for me.

The blokes a self serving charlatan


Nigel Farage: I admire Vladimir Putin

[Link]

Edited by nickgusset (25 Apr 2017 7.51am)

More fake news Nick!

Can you show me the bit in the UKIP manifesto that says they "are all for selling off the NHS".

Farage admires Putin, wow! Corbyn is friends with Hamas and the IRA.

 

nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 25 Apr 17 11.13pm

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

More fake news Nick!

Can you show me the bit in the UKIP manifesto that says they "are all for selling off the NHS".

Farage admires Putin, wow! Corbyn is friends with Hamas and the IRA.

 

davenotamonkey Flag 25 Apr 17 11.56pm

Originally posted by Kermit8

As a starting point? A one-size fits all solution like that is way, way too simplistic. There are just so many factors/variables from country to country that will influence relationships and deals. Personalities, positional strengths and weaknesses, public opinion, length of time to finalise a deal, hubris, etc. Don't forget, these are politicians we are talking about.

Canada won't rely on EU fruit and veg pickers, for example, to maximise productivity in that sector nor have nearly 20% of Uni Academics from EU countries as we have here [Link] so, perhaps, aspects which are convoluted for the UK/EU are much more black and white for Canada/EU

This is not the time for naive idealism. That ended with Article 50 being invoked. Hard practical solutions, please.

Translation: because one (in fact more) country achieved the parameters of a deal we seek, we can't do it because wibble. You're claiming a "one-size-fits-all" approach is simplistic (I agree - blanket multilaterals as espoused by the EU are slow and ill-matched, glad we're getting out). Where is the relevance to taking CETA as a basis?

We need fruit pickers? How the hell does the rest of the world cope? EU academics? Give me a break. Academia is global. The turnover is phenomenal, and your origin is largely irrelevant (except now perhaps for some of the EU H2020 grants - only whites can apply for them, the racists). There are equally, no doubt, issues that are black/white for the UK that were anything but for Canada. Fact remains - no FoM, nearly 100% tariff-free access, no budget payments, no "fax democracy", no ECJ.

It's utterly pathetic you're so blinded by it all you can't even concede that such a deal already exists, and could, with modification, exist for the UK-EU.

It IS this simple: the EU have negotiated, with a smaller, less economically-connected nation, a deal with core features that we would like. Our trade with the EU is more important to them than Canada's. Relative to Canada all your "factors/variables" are weighted in our favour. The EU is more dependent on us than Canada. If they value it, they need to provide is with these same core features.

This is not the time for petulant foot-stamping-wailing because we're not doing things your way any more. That ended with Article 50 being invoked. Toys in pram, please.

 

davenotamonkey Flag 26 Apr 17 12.07am

Originally posted by steeleye20

Canada and the USA are the biggest trade partners in the world 75% of Canadian exports go just over the border.

The deal was a last minute political fix but I don't think much actual trade is expected between the EU and Canada its an add-on really.

The EU includes us so are in this deal in case we have forgotten we are actually in the EU.

It seems most trade is with the country near to you as its just so much easier so its pretty silly not to continue in the single market particularly as its a British initiative from a conservative PM Mrs Thatcher.

I am sure I would be quite happy to buy Canadian things but I cannot remember seeing any perhaps McDonalds will do moose-burgers.......

This post is so full of stupid, I don't even know where to start. A "last minute political fix" that took 7 years to negotiate? An "add-on" to what?

I don't even know what you're talking about with respect to Canadian trade with the US, the EU, and the UK. This is about how the features of the Canadian-EU trade deal align well with what the UK wants, moreover that we have a stronger negotiating hand than Canada did, suggesting we should be seeking to secure the same features at the very least.

But yes, well done: "moose-burgers". Slow clap.

 

Penge Eagle Flag Beckenham 26 Apr 17 6.06am

He may have said that years ago – he references "coalition government" – but that is not the UKIP policy!

The 2015 manifesto vowed to end the use of PFI contracts, privatisation by the back door, set up by Labour. It was also for scrapping TTIP which could have led to privatisation of parts of the NHS if we were in the EU – and Labour wanted us to remain.

Come on Nick, you know full well how politics works. MPs and MEPs all have their own opinions, especially on blogs. However, there is only one party policy and scrapping the NHS is not in UKIP's manifesto. It's not going to happen. Fake news!

Edited by Penge Eagle (26 Apr 2017 6.35am)

 

nickgusset Flag Shizzlehurst 26 Apr 17 8.08am

Originally posted by Penge Eagle

He may have said that years ago – he references "coalition government" – but that is not the UKIP policy!

The 2015 manifesto vowed to end the use of PFI contracts, privatisation by the back door, set up by Labour. It was also for scrapping TTIP which could have led to privatisation of parts of the NHS if we were in the EU – and Labour wanted us to remain.

Come on Nick, you know full well how politics works. MPs and MEPs all have their own opinions, especially on blogs. However, there is only one party policy and scrapping the NHS is not in UKIP's manifesto. It's not going to happen. Fake news!

Edited by Penge Eagle (26 Apr 2017 6.35am)

If the last paragraph is the way forward then I expect no one will bang on about trident and Corbyn as his view is different to Labour policy.

 

Stirlingsays Flag 26 Apr 17 8.15am

Originally posted by nickgusset

If the last paragraph is the way forward then I expect no one will bang on about trident and Corbyn as his view is different to Labour policy.

Not really, Nuttall says this is no longer his view.

Does Corbyn say the same about pressing the nuclear button then? Not he doesn't.

And as Prime Minister that would be his call....Not the 'Labour Party'.

No equivalency.

 


'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

steeleye20 Flag Croydon 26 Apr 17 1.27pm

As Mark Carney said, London is "effectively, the investment banker for Europe" and the City is the financial capital of the European Union.

Whatever we think of brexit we can hardly blame the EU for wanting EU financial control to be within the EU itself.

Consequences.


 

steeleye20 Flag Croydon 26 Apr 17 4.20pm

Originally posted by davenotamonkey

This post is so full of stupid, I don't even know where to start. A "last minute political fix" that took 7 years to negotiate? An "add-on" to what?

I don't even know what you're talking about with respect to Canadian trade with the US, the EU, and the UK. This is about how the features of the Canadian-EU trade deal align well with what the UK wants, moreover that we have a stronger negotiating hand than Canada did, suggesting we should be seeking to secure the same features at the very least.

But yes, well done: "moose-burgers". Slow clap.

An addition to the 75% of their trade they do with the USA it doesn't mean it's not worth it.

 

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