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JRW2 Dulwich 03 Feb 23 3.47pm | |
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Originally posted by Glazier#1
You already live in a country where most of us give money to the government to disburse for the common weal. But you'll never find a country where everyone does it willingly, as you would like. And as for look-after-number-one, I suspect that only a couple of people in a hundred vote in elections with the good of the country in mind; it's what they see as their own good that determines their vote. Hence Chuchill's well known observation: Democracy is the worst form of government - except for all the others.
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The Dolphin 03 Feb 23 4.04pm | |
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Good post Badger - I concur!
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Badger11 Beckenham 03 Feb 23 4.09pm | |
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Originally posted by JRW2
You already live in a country where most of us give money to the government to disburse for the common weal. But you'll never find a country where everyone does it willingly, as you would like. And as for look-after-number-one, I suspect that only a couple of people in a hundred vote in elections with the good of the country in mind; it's what they see as their own good that determines their vote. Hence Chuchill's well known observation: Democracy is the worst form of government - except for all the others. I made the same point, call it selfishness or just self interest. Would you give a starving man your meal? Sure who wouldn't. Of course there are people who are altruist but many of us like to think we vote for the common good when it really is self interest. A businessman votes Tory he says this country needs a strong low tax economy because that is how we pay for public services. A cynical person might point out that he will also benefit from low taxes. A public sector worker votes Labour because they care about the poor and the best way to help them is to have a well funded and properly staffed public sector. A cynical person might observe that this person is also protecting their own job and pay and conditions. The other point I made was that if the majority of people in this country really care about others then why don't they vote for a party that will provide a Scandinavian style welfare state with equivalent levels of taxation. More to the point why are Labour at pains to tell us they are not the party of high taxation, clearly their market research doesn't support the idea. I know I am cynical but none of this is new, people vote for what they think is best for them and their family. If that also happens to be good for the country then happy days. Edited by Badger11 (03 Feb 2023 4.11pm)
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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 03 Feb 23 4.45pm | |
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Originally posted by Badger11
I made the same point, call it selfishness or just self interest. Would you give a starving man your meal? Sure who wouldn't. Of course there are people who are altruist but many of us like to think we vote for the common good when it really is self interest. A businessman votes Tory he says this country needs a strong low tax economy because that is how we pay for public services. A cynical person might point out that he will also benefit from low taxes. A public sector worker votes Labour because they care about the poor and the best way to help them is to have a well funded and properly staffed public sector. A cynical person might observe that this person is also protecting their own job and pay and conditions. The other point I made was that if the majority of people in this country really care about others then why don't they vote for a party that will provide a Scandinavian style welfare state with equivalent levels of taxation. More to the point why are Labour at pains to tell us they are not the party of high taxation, clearly their market research doesn't support the idea. I know I am cynical but none of this is new, people vote for what they think is best for them and their family. If that also happens to be good for the country then happy days. Edited by Badger11 (03 Feb 2023 4.11pm) If I wasn't starving myself, absolutely I would. There's obviously truth in what your saying but I don't think it has to be the case - capitalism has taught us all to crave far more than we could ever really need and also pitted us against each other in a never ending battle for resources. Historically, that made sense, but with the amount of wealth in circulation today, it doesn't have to be the case. I'm in the higher rate tax bracket earning a good living and I would not vote Tory no matter what I stood to save in tax personally. The existence of, and indeed the scale of, our charity sector is surely proof that people are really not all that selfish when they can afford not to be.
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georgenorman 03 Feb 23 4.49pm | |
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A lot of the recent posts on this thread seem to suggest that higher taxes and more state intervention will necessarily improve the lives of the poorer sections of society and indeed all of us. Yet where massive state control has been tried, the outcome has been the opposite.
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Badger11 Beckenham 03 Feb 23 5.01pm | |
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Originally posted by EverybodyDannsNow
If I wasn't starving myself, absolutely I would. There's obviously truth in what your saying but I don't think it has to be the case - capitalism has taught us all to crave far more than we could ever really need and also pitted us against each other in a never ending battle for resources. Historically, that made sense, but with the amount of wealth in circulation today, it doesn't have to be the case. I'm in the higher rate tax bracket earning a good living and I would not vote Tory no matter what I stood to save in tax personally. The existence of, and indeed the scale of, our charity sector is surely proof that people are really not all that selfish when they can afford not to be. I think that is the key point.
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Badger11 Beckenham 03 Feb 23 5.03pm | |
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Originally posted by georgenorman
A lot of the recent posts on this thread seem to suggest that higher taxes and more state intervention will necessarily improve the lives of the poorer sections of society and indeed all of us. Yet where massive state control has been tried, the outcome has been the opposite. I'm not advocating for a Scandinavian welfare state I was trying to do what the yanks call opposition research.
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EverybodyDannsNow SE19 03 Feb 23 5.16pm | |
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Originally posted by Badger11
I think that is the key point. I don’t know, in political terms you see loads of financially secure people voting to further grow/protect their own wealth - that’s not a choice of survival or desperation.
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cryrst The garden of England 03 Feb 23 7.54pm | |
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Originally posted by Glazier#1
Get your tissues ready for tomorrow. My boy is driving up tomorrow but I blew it out.
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Glazier#1 03 Feb 23 8.40pm | |
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Just when you think they'll be thrashed, they go and win. Palace through the ages.
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HeathMan Purley 03 Feb 23 9.41pm | |
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Hopefully, Saturday will give us two draws followed by a win. (The two draws have felt like wins.
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Midlands Eagle 04 Feb 23 7.04am | |
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Originally posted by JRW2
And as for look-after-number-one, I suspect that only a couple of people in a hundred vote in elections with the good of the country in mind; it's what they see as their own good that determines their vote. A few decades ago it looked like Labour were going to romp home and take over from an unpopular Tory government then Labour announced that they would renationalise the utilities without compensation losing them the election. It had never occurred to them that it was the traditional Labour voters who had made some money by investing in these utility shares and they didn't want a Labour government to take it away from them
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