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steeleye20 Croydon 19 Oct 17 8.43am
Labour big win over universal credit but Mrs May will proceed regardless as it is advisory not binding. So the votes do not matter. So why does the leave vote matter so much as it is also advisory not binding?

steeleye20

Croydon 19 Oct 17 8.43am

Labour big win over universal credit but Mrs May will proceed regardless as it is advisory not binding.

So the votes do not matter.

So why does the leave vote matter so much as it is also advisory not binding?

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 19 Oct 17 9.20am
Originally posted by Stirlingsays 'Remain' had an advantage on the amount spent so this question of national interest was never actually treated appropriately. 'Remain' were the only side who managed to get a leaflet through my door.....from the bloody government themselves....warning me of disasters straight away if I voted leave. Remain were and are just as big a load of liars as anyone else. I read the article.....sorry for the delay. It does open up several valid questions about media manipulation that is definitely something to look at. Media giants today are looking....first to restrict expression and opinion....under pressure from governments....and then to place as preference the views and opinions on things that governments...or themselves...ie silcon valley want....or indeed what some paymaster like leave or whoever want....I agree...I don't like manipulation for political purposes. That is something everyone should be concerned about. There should be a fairness.....but were you concerned about the unfairness given to the leave side? The government was biased on this question and didn't allow access to them....taxpayer money was used to fund the 'remain' side and not the 'leave'. Now, the article you linked to is under legal complaint but.....while my vote on Brexit was formed about ten to fifteen years ago it's definitely true.....and this is where we agree....that objectivity on social media is a problem. How we fairly proceed in doing something about that is a different debate. Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Oct 2017 6.18pm) Interesting thoughts and ones I agree with. I certainly wasn't comfortable with this government bias. I felt the whole referendum campaign from both sides was beset by lies and misinformation and the vote we had was narrow and uninspiring and frankly a bit condescending to the public. We should have had more options so we could actually inform the government of our feelings. Even 4 choices (ardent remainer, reluctant remainer, hard brexiteer, soft brexiteer being the broad categories) would have been better. Then we'd know how many people love the EU as is or wanted to stay but only based on EU reform, or wanted to leave so we could control more aspects of our economy and society but still aim for close ties, especially on trade, or just leave and be done with it. I have no idea, other than from flawed polls, what people who voted leave actually want, and the same for remain. I was a reluctant remainer, but now feel like George Monbiot that it's an opportunity, which is being wasted by this government, to make our society fairer and give people more of a say (which is what taking back control really should look like). I don't want decisions made in Brussels to just be made in Whitehall. I feel like we are treated with contempt and lied to far too often by politicians of all stripes.

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 19 Oct 17 9.20am

Originally posted by Stirlingsays

'Remain' had an advantage on the amount spent so this question of national interest was never actually treated appropriately.

'Remain' were the only side who managed to get a leaflet through my door.....from the bloody government themselves....warning me of disasters straight away if I voted leave. Remain were and are just as big a load of liars as anyone else.

I read the article.....sorry for the delay. It does open up several valid questions about media manipulation that is definitely something to look at. Media giants today are looking....first to restrict expression and opinion....under pressure from governments....and then to place as preference the views and opinions on things that governments...or themselves...ie silcon valley want....or indeed what some paymaster like leave or whoever want....I agree...I don't like manipulation for political purposes.

That is something everyone should be concerned about. There should be a fairness.....but were you concerned about the unfairness given to the leave side? The government was biased on this question and didn't allow access to them....taxpayer money was used to fund the 'remain' side and not the 'leave'.

Now, the article you linked to is under legal complaint but.....while my vote on Brexit was formed about ten to fifteen years ago it's definitely true.....and this is where we agree....that objectivity on social media is a problem.

How we fairly proceed in doing something about that is a different debate.

Edited by Stirlingsays (18 Oct 2017 6.18pm)

Interesting thoughts and ones I agree with.

I certainly wasn't comfortable with this government bias. I felt the whole referendum campaign from both sides was beset by lies and misinformation and the vote we had was narrow and uninspiring and frankly a bit condescending to the public. We should have had more options so we could actually inform the government of our feelings. Even 4 choices (ardent remainer, reluctant remainer, hard brexiteer, soft brexiteer being the broad categories) would have been better. Then we'd know how many people love the EU as is or wanted to stay but only based on EU reform, or wanted to leave so we could control more aspects of our economy and society but still aim for close ties, especially on trade, or just leave and be done with it. I have no idea, other than from flawed polls, what people who voted leave actually want, and the same for remain. I was a reluctant remainer, but now feel like George Monbiot that it's an opportunity, which is being wasted by this government, to make our society fairer and give people more of a say (which is what taking back control really should look like). I don't want decisions made in Brussels to just be made in Whitehall.

I feel like we are treated with contempt and lied to far too often by politicians of all stripes.

npn Crowborough 19 Oct 17 9.37am
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle I certainly wasn't comfortable with this government bias. I felt the whole referendum campaign from both sides was beset by lies and misinformation and the vote we had was narrow and uninspiring and frankly a bit condescending to the public. I feel like we are treated with contempt and lied to far too often by politicians of all stripes. Agreed. I actually abstained because I had no faith in any form of meaningful EU reform, and I didn't want a 'remain' vote to be treated as a "I love the EU and all it stands for", as was done with the AV vote (those of us who voted against because AV was a pile of poo, but strongly favour proper PR saw our rejection of AV swiftly turned into "we don't want PR", but I was very uncomfortable with the leave camp, and the idea it was an anti immigrant vote, do I just couldn't bring myself to support either. (apologies for the selective quoting - still a size limit on responses at work)

npn

Crowborough 19 Oct 17 9.37am

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Agreed.
I actually abstained because I had no faith in any form of meaningful EU reform, and I didn't want a 'remain' vote to be treated as a "I love the EU and all it stands for", as was done with the AV vote (those of us who voted against because AV was a pile of poo, but strongly favour proper PR saw our rejection of AV swiftly turned into "we don't want PR", but I was very uncomfortable with the leave camp, and the idea it was an anti immigrant vote, do I just couldn't bring myself to support either.

(apologies for the selective quoting - still a size limit on responses at work)

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 19 Oct 17 9.37am
Originally posted by .TUX. No. Too many people are so fixated on Brexit being the economic 'be all and end all' that they continually miss the bigger picture. I've always said that Brexit will be the scapegoat when things turn bad. It's a deliberate (and far too easy) deflection away from those who have caused the real problems that we all face, to the 52%. Painfully simple. Who are they and what are these problems in your opinion? Genuinely interested.

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 19 Oct 17 9.37am

Originally posted by .TUX.

No.
Too many people are so fixated on Brexit being the economic 'be all and end all' that they continually miss the bigger picture.
I've always said that Brexit will be the scapegoat when things turn bad. It's a deliberate (and far too easy) deflection away from those who have caused the real problems that we all face, to the 52%.

Painfully simple.

Who are they and what are these problems in your opinion? Genuinely interested.

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 19 Oct 17 9.39am
Originally posted by npn Agreed. I actually abstained because I had no faith in any form of meaningful EU reform, and I didn't want a 'remain' vote to be treated as a "I love the EU and all it stands for", as was done with the AV vote (those of us who voted against because AV was a pile of poo, but strongly favour proper PR saw our rejection of AV swiftly turned into "we don't want PR", but I was very uncomfortable with the leave camp, and the idea it was an anti immigrant vote, do I just couldn't bring myself to support either. (apologies for the selective quoting - still a size limit on responses at work) Agree with points on AV.

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 19 Oct 17 9.39am

Originally posted by npn

(apologies for the selective quoting - still a size limit on responses at work)

Agree with points on AV.

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 19 Oct 17 9.41am
Originally posted by steeleye20 Labour big win over universal credit but Mrs May will proceed regardless as it is advisory not binding. So the votes do not matter. So why does the leave vote matter so much as it is also advisory not binding? Two different things, but despite that the Tories are too self indulgent and narrow minded in their interest to do anything other than use situations for their own ends. Brexit for most of them isn't about doing what's best for the country. Shame.

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 19 Oct 17 9.41am

Originally posted by steeleye20

Labour big win over universal credit but Mrs May will proceed regardless as it is advisory not binding.

So the votes do not matter.

So why does the leave vote matter so much as it is also advisory not binding?

Two different things, but despite that the Tories are too self indulgent and narrow minded in their interest to do anything other than use situations for their own ends. Brexit for most of them isn't about doing what's best for the country. Shame.

Stirlingsays 19 Oct 17 10.59am
Originally posted by npn Agreed. I actually abstained because I had no faith in any form of meaningful EU reform, and I didn't want a 'remain' vote to be treated as a "I love the EU and all it stands for", as was done with the AV vote (those of us who voted against because AV was a pile of poo, but strongly favour proper PR saw our rejection of AV swiftly turned into "we don't want PR", but I was very uncomfortable with the leave camp, and the idea it was an anti immigrant vote, do I just couldn't bring myself to support either. (apologies for the selective quoting - still a size limit on responses at work) This is a fair point and it's true that this always happens. The truth of any vote for and against something is that it will contain within it degrees of enthusiasm to almost a forced reluctance. 'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Stirlingsays

19 Oct 17 10.59am

Originally posted by npn

(apologies for the selective quoting - still a size limit on responses at work)

This is a fair point and it's true that this always happens. The truth of any vote for and against something is that it will contain within it degrees of enthusiasm to almost a forced reluctance.

'Who are you and how did you get in here? I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith.' (Leslie Nielsen)

Hrolf The Ganger 19 Oct 17 11.02am
Originally posted by nickgusset So in the last few days I've been called a Communist and a Fascist. Corbyn was right. Labour are the new centre ground. Now the EU. Can anyone make everyone feel confident about the current s*** shower of a strong and stable Brexit? Not nice when people make insinuations and call you names is it. When you dish it out, you gotta take it comrade.

Hrolf The Ganger

19 Oct 17 11.02am

Originally posted by nickgusset

So in the last few days I've been called a Communist and a Fascist. Corbyn was right. Labour are the new centre ground.

Now the EU. Can anyone make everyone feel confident about the current s*** shower of a strong and stable Brexit?

Not nice when people make insinuations and call you names is it.
When you dish it out, you gotta take it comrade.

Hrolf The Ganger 19 Oct 17 11.09am
Originally posted by nickgusset Oh dear. Now back to the EU. Hrolf, how would you persuade someone who is a bit reticent about Brexit, because basically it's a s*storm of w*ery performed by cockwomble incompetents which has lead us to being the laughing stock of the world, that things will turn out well? I don't need to. I never expected a smooth ride. You clearly don't undertand how negotiation works or that leaving Europe is worth the pain. Your opinion is worthless anyway. You would agree with the Labout position no matter what it was. You are a party man. Sad but true.

Hrolf The Ganger

19 Oct 17 11.09am

Originally posted by nickgusset

Oh dear.

Now back to the EU.

Hrolf, how would you persuade someone who is a bit reticent about Brexit, because basically it's a s***storm of w***ery performed by cockwomble incompetents which has lead us to being the laughing stock of the world, that things will turn out well?

I don't need to. I never expected a smooth ride. You clearly don't undertand how negotiation works or that leaving Europe is worth the pain.

Your opinion is worthless anyway. You would agree with the Labout position no matter what it was. You are a party man. Sad but true.

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 19 Oct 17 11.26am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger I don't need to. I never expected a smooth ride. You clearly don't undertand how negotiation works or that leaving Europe is worth the pain. Your opinion is worthless anyway. You would agree with the Labout position no matter what it was. You are a party man. Sad but true. You won't or you can't?

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 19 Oct 17 11.26am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

I don't need to. I never expected a smooth ride. You clearly don't undertand how negotiation works or that leaving Europe is worth the pain.

Your opinion is worthless anyway. You would agree with the Labout position no matter what it was. You are a party man. Sad but true.

You won't or you can't?

Hrolf The Ganger 19 Oct 17 11.41am
Originally posted by nickgusset You won't or you can't? It is irrelevant. Brexit is going ahead with no second referendums or other various attempts at subverting democracy and I'm glad of it. I don't know why you tedious Remainers are still whining.

Hrolf The Ganger

19 Oct 17 11.41am

Originally posted by nickgusset

You won't or you can't?

It is irrelevant. Brexit is going ahead with no second referendums or other various attempts at subverting democracy and I'm glad of it.

I don't know why you tedious Remainers are still whining.

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 19 Oct 17 11.52am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger It is irrelevant. Brexit is going ahead with no second referendums or other various attempts at subverting democracy and I'm glad of it. I don't know why you tedious Remainers are still whining. Democracy is limited. We need more say on how Brexit happens. We need more say on most things. [Link] Posted this yesterday but it's worth reading IMO and discussing. While Brexit is happening it's not happening in a way that reflects the will of the people or our best interests.

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 19 Oct 17 11.52am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

It is irrelevant. Brexit is going ahead with no second referendums or other various attempts at subverting democracy and I'm glad of it.

I don't know why you tedious Remainers are still whining.

Democracy is limited. We need more say on how Brexit happens. We need more say on most things.

[Link]

Posted this yesterday but it's worth reading IMO and discussing.

While Brexit is happening it's not happening in a way that reflects the will of the people or our best interests.

nickgusset Shizzlehurst 19 Oct 17 11.56am
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger It is irrelevant. Brexit is going ahead with no second referendums or other various attempts at subverting democracy and I'm glad of it. I don't know why you tedious Remainers are still whining. Yes I know leave won. That's not the issue. I want to know what's going well.

nickgusset

Shizzlehurst 19 Oct 17 11.56am

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

It is irrelevant. Brexit is going ahead with no second referendums or other various attempts at subverting democracy and I'm glad of it.

I don't know why you tedious Remainers are still whining.

Yes I know leave won. That's not the issue. I want to know what's going well.

Hrolf The Ganger 19 Oct 17 12.06pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle Democracy is limited. We need more say on how Brexit happens. We need more say on most things. [Link] Posted this yesterday but it's worth reading IMO and discussing. While Brexit is happening it's not happening in a way that reflects the will of the people or our best interests. Until people disagree with you. Then we need a second referendum. Behave.

Hrolf The Ganger

19 Oct 17 12.06pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

Democracy is limited. We need more say on how Brexit happens. We need more say on most things.

[Link]

Posted this yesterday but it's worth reading IMO and discussing.

While Brexit is happening it's not happening in a way that reflects the will of the people or our best interests.

Until people disagree with you. Then we need a second referendum.

Behave.

Hrolf The Ganger 19 Oct 17 12.08pm
Originally posted by nickgusset Yes I know leave won. That's not the issue. I want to know what's going well. There is no 'well'. There is a negotiation in which a deal will be arrived at. Until that is concluded, all further discussion is superfluous.

Hrolf The Ganger

19 Oct 17 12.08pm

Originally posted by nickgusset

Yes I know leave won. That's not the issue. I want to know what's going well.

There is no 'well'. There is a negotiation in which a deal will be arrived at. Until that is concluded, all further discussion is superfluous.

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 19 Oct 17 12.27pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger There is no 'well'. There is a negotiation in which a deal will be arrived at. Until that is concluded, all further discussion is superfluous. So what people want from a deal and the concerns of citizens and business is superfluous? The government should just be allowed to tear themselves apart and throw away any opportunities for a better country we might have and just stand to the side and watch on tight lipped? That's a load of rubbish. People should be standing up at every stage and not letting the government simply ride roughshod over our rights and futures and create a society that's worse off and less equal. This isn't about accepting or not the referendum result. It's about making sure what we want to achieve following that result is listened to and acted upon. Brexit is not a mandate for the government to ignore us (100% of the population not 52/48%). The discussions before a deal are massively important if you care about the contents of that deal. It's much better to be heard now and get that included in the deal and make sure the deal is as good as possible and society better of as a result than moan about it once the deal is a bad one. Brexit is no guaranteed success!

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 19 Oct 17 12.27pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

There is no 'well'. There is a negotiation in which a deal will be arrived at. Until that is concluded, all further discussion is superfluous.

So what people want from a deal and the concerns of citizens and business is superfluous? The government should just be allowed to tear themselves apart and throw away any opportunities for a better country we might have and just stand to the side and watch on tight lipped?

That's a load of rubbish. People should be standing up at every stage and not letting the government simply ride roughshod over our rights and futures and create a society that's worse off and less equal. This isn't about accepting or not the referendum result. It's about making sure what we want to achieve following that result is listened to and acted upon. Brexit is not a mandate for the government to ignore us (100% of the population not 52/48%).

The discussions before a deal are massively important if you care about the contents of that deal. It's much better to be heard now and get that included in the deal and make sure the deal is as good as possible and society better of as a result than moan about it once the deal is a bad one. Brexit is no guaranteed success!

CambridgeEagle Sydenham 19 Oct 17 12.28pm
Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger Until people disagree with you. Then we need a second referendum. Behave. So you didn't bother reading the article?

CambridgeEagle

Sydenham 19 Oct 17 12.28pm

Originally posted by Hrolf The Ganger

Until people disagree with you. Then we need a second referendum.

Behave.

So you didn't bother reading the article?

silvertop Portishead 19 Oct 17 12.33pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle Two different things, but despite that the Tories are too self indulgent and narrow minded in their interest to do anything other than use situations for their own ends. Brexit for most of them isn't about doing what's best for the country. Shame. You talk of the "tories" like they are a single unified voice. Truthfully, I feel for the intelligent liberal minded front benchers who are having to cede position to the (frankly) mental right of their party. Seriously, when presented with statistics and comments from the captain's of industry who are already upping sticks for the continent and the bigger fish standing on the wings ready to swallow us up once we are outside the protection of the EU all they have is: "People have to look at this as an opportunity". However you are correct. Maintaining power and keeping the party together seem higher goals than the people whose lives they swore to protect and enrich.

silvertop

Portishead 19 Oct 17 12.33pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

You talk of the "tories" like they are a single unified voice.

Truthfully, I feel for the intelligent liberal minded front benchers who are having to cede position to the (frankly) mental right of their party. Seriously, when presented with statistics and comments from the captain's of industry who are already upping sticks for the continent and the bigger fish standing on the wings ready to swallow us up once we are outside the protection of the EU all they have is: "People have to look at this as an opportunity".

However you are correct. Maintaining power and keeping the party together seem higher goals than the people whose lives they swore to protect and enrich.

Hrolf The Ganger 19 Oct 17 1.06pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle So what people want from a deal and the concerns of citizens and business is superfluous? The government should just be allowed to tear themselves apart and throw away any opportunities for a better country we might have and just stand to the side and watch on tight lipped? That's a load of rubbish. People should be standing up at every stage and not letting the government simply ride roughshod over our rights and futures and create a society that's worse off and less equal. This isn't about accepting or not the referendum result. It's about making sure what we want to achieve following that result is listened to and acted upon. Brexit is not a mandate for the government to ignore us (100% of the population not 52/48%). The discussions before a deal are massively important if you care about the contents of that deal. It's much better to be heard now and get that included in the deal and make sure the deal is as good as possible and society better of as a result than moan about it once the deal is a bad one. Brexit is no guaranteed success! The government has pledged to deliver 'Hard Brexit' and that is what I want. Any discussion will just be an attempt by Remainers to dilute that. I want the negotiation to be completed without interference from pathetic Labour or other self interested parties.

Hrolf The Ganger

19 Oct 17 1.06pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

The government has pledged to deliver 'Hard Brexit' and that is what I want.
Any discussion will just be an attempt by Remainers to dilute that. I want the negotiation to be completed without interference from pathetic Labour or other self interested parties.

Hrolf The Ganger 19 Oct 17 1.08pm
Originally posted by CambridgeEagle So you didn't bother reading the article? So we should have public votes on policy? With the number of halfwits currently populating this country, that is a scary thought.

Hrolf The Ganger

19 Oct 17 1.08pm

Originally posted by CambridgeEagle

So you didn't bother reading the article?

So we should have public votes on policy?

With the number of halfwits currently populating this country, that is a scary thought.

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